1:05:50Cole Gordon · Interview
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June 9thThe argument in one line.
Sales is applied psychology, and the highest close rates come from shifting a prospect's identity rather than their logic, because people act according to who they believe themselves to be.
Read if. Skip if.
READ IF YOU ARE…
- You sell high-ticket offers over the phone or video and your close rate is stuck below 30%.
- You have salespeople who can recite scripts but fall apart when a prospect goes off-script.
- You want to understand why tonality beats word-choice in almost every objection scenario.
- You are building or scaling a sales team and trying to move from transactional closes to identity-level conviction.
- You have tried memorizing objection rebuttals from social media and found they rarely survive contact with a real prospect.
SKIP IF…
- You sell low-ticket e-commerce or subscription products that never involve a sales call.
- You are brand new to sales and have not yet done at least 100 real calls.
The full version, fast.
Most salespeople operate at level one (features and benefits) and never reach the levels where conviction actually forms: beliefs and identity. Jeremy Miner argues every sale is a psychology session. The prospect wears a mask and your job is to create enough trust that they take it off. The NEPQ framework treats every word choice and tonality shift as a belief-change instrument, not a persuasion tactic. The objection-handling demos show how the same identity frames that open a conversation also close it: once a prospect has told you who they are, you hold them to it.
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Create a free account →Who's talking.
00:00guestJeremy Miner
00:00hostCole Gordon
Where the time goes.
00:00 – 02:01
01 · Cold open
Jeremy Miner intro and premise: over $100M collective revenue, both run sales training companies.
02:01 – 04:56
02 · Sales is psychology: beliefs, behaviors & identity
Jeremy lays out the four-level model and why 99% of reps never get past level one.
04:56 – 07:17
03 · Tonality: challenging without sounding judgmental
How the same words delivered two different ways produce opposite outcomes. Live demo.
07:17 – 13:33
04 · Getting the prospect to take off the mask
Why surface-level answers doom the close and how presence forces honesty.
13:33 – 22:41
05 · Using identity to drive the sale
The identity frame in detail -- negative identity shift, positive provider frame, gender-specific plays.
22:41 – 32:52
06 · Selling to big egos & creating the gap
How to handle the superiority complex, non-committal languaging, and two types of problems: pain versus unfulfilled desire.
32:52 – 35:35
07 · Frameworks over scripts: selling in flow state
Why scripts fail and principles win -- the neurosurgeon analogy and what flow state means in a sales call.
35:35 – 40:01
08 · How to actually master tonality
Jeremy's acting-coach background (Larry Moss). The everyday-life practice method.
40:01 – 43:33
09 · Body language & getting the camera on
Mirroring then getting mirrored. The is-your-video-broken technique.
43:33 – 52:29
10 · Objection: I want to think about it
Full live role-play -- real estate agent scenario. Interjecting, looping, identity frames.
52:29 – 57:07
11 · Objection: I need to talk to my spouse
How the spouse is rarely the real objection. Reframing around cost of inaction.
57:07 – 1:04:48
12 · Objection: I want to check one other company
What are you hoping they will say? Comparative framing. The intuition close.
1:04:48 – 1:06:48
13 · Why people stall (survival vs. thriving)
The neurological root of every objection -- brain survival wiring and open loops.
1:06:48 – 1:14:28
14 · Scaling to nine figures
Cole's growth path from $50M to $100M+: executive leadership upgrades and bottom-up enterprise pipeline.
Lines worth screenshotting.
- The sale is won or lost at hello -- by the time you get to closing questions, the prospect has already decided.
- If a prospect can bullshit you, they will not trust you to solve their problem; catching vague answers builds credibility.
- Non-committal language early in the call is a direct preview of the objection you will get at the end.
- Tonality communicates moral authority -- the same words delivered with judgment shut a prospect down while curiosity opens them.
- People do not argue with their own identity -- call someone the type of person who never gives up and they will prove you right.
- Rehearsal is the only path to flow state on a sales call; you cannot think about what to say next and also listen to what a prospect means.
- The brain was never built to thrive, only to survive -- every stall objection is the prospect's nervous system looking for external permission.
- Verbal pacing -- slowing down and lowering your tone on a key question -- forces a prospect to think deeper before answering.
- Most objections collapse when you ask what the prospect is hoping the alternative will say; they usually cannot answer.
- Getting a prospect's camera on is an advantage, not a preference -- body language reveals what tone alone cannot.
- A prospect who has re-told their painful story has re-experienced the emotions that drive change; you do not need to manufacture urgency.
- Moving a prospect from cost-based thinking to result-based thinking is a single reframe: cheapest price versus the outcome they said they wanted.
- Enterprise clients often enter through individual champions -- a front-end that creates true believers is the most effective enterprise pipeline.
- Scaling past nine figures is an executive leadership problem -- the team that got you to 40 million will not get you to 200 million without intervention.
Sales is a psychology session, not a pitch.
WHAT TO LEARN
The closers who consistently outperform are not better talkers -- they are better listeners who work at the identity level while everyone else is still selling features.
01Cold open
- A combined $100M+ annual revenue across two sales training companies makes this a practitioner debrief, not a theoretical framework session.
02Sales is psychology: beliefs, behaviors & identity
- Most salespeople sell features because that is what they were taught -- but the highest-converting conversations operate at the belief and identity layers.
- The domino belief maps directly: one accepted belief makes every downstream objection irrelevant.
03Tonality: challenging without sounding judgmental
- The same words can open or close a prospect depending on whether delivery signals curiosity or evaluation -- practicing the distinction is as important as learning the words.
04Getting the prospect to take off the mask
- Accepting surface-level answers and moving to the next script question is the single behavior most predictive of a weak close.
- When a prospect realizes they cannot get anything past you, they extend more trust -- because it signals you can actually solve their problem.
05Using identity to drive the sale
- Identity frames work because they attach the desired purchase behavior to who the prospect already believes themselves to be.
- Gender-specific identity plays meet the prospect at the identity that is most meaningful to them -- calibration, not manipulation.
06Selling to big egos & creating the gap
- Every sale needs a gap between current state and desired state; without a defined problem there is no topic for the conversation.
- Prospects with a superiority complex still have an unfulfilled desire -- the framing shifts from pain to unlocked potential.
07Frameworks over scripts: selling in flow state
- Scripts fail under pressure because the salesperson is always one unexpected answer away from losing the thread; a principle-based framework gives flexibility within a known structure.
08How to actually master tonality
- Tonality is a physical skill trained like an actor prepares for a role -- it requires deliberate rehearsal in ordinary conversations, not just sales practice.
09Body language & getting the camera on
- Mirroring is effective for initial rapport but eventually the closer needs to lead -- getting the prospect to mirror you signals they have accepted your frame.
- The camera-off technique works because asking 'is your video broken?' forces the prospect to correct the record rather than comply.
10Objection: I want to think about it
- The think-it-over objection always contains a real concern underneath -- get the guard down first, then surface what the concern actually is.
- Ending every objection response with a question maintains emotional momentum.
- Interjecting mid-objection works only after trust has been established; doing it too early with a guarded prospect will backfire.
11Objection: I need to talk to my spouse
- Reframe the spouse objection around what causes more stress: $500K/month in lost revenue versus a $10K investment that solves the problem.
12Objection: I want to check one other company
- Asking what the prospect hopes the other company will say reveals the real objection without confronting them directly.
- The intuition close works because the prospect has already decided and simply needs permission to stop shopping.
13Why people stall (survival vs. thriving)
- Every stall behavior is the brain's survival mechanism seeking external validation before committing to the unknown.
- Unresolved decisions carry real mental weight -- helping a prospect close a loop is a genuine service, not pressure.
14Scaling to nine figures
- The people who built a $40M company are usually not right for $200M -- recognizing and acting on that is the hardest leadership decision at that stage.
- A front end of individual buyers is the most underutilized enterprise pipeline -- every trained rep is a potential corporate champion.
Terms worth knowing.
- NEPQ
- Neuro-Emotional Persuasion Questioning -- a sales methodology built around questions that surface the emotional root of a prospect's desire and resistance, rather than presenting features or benefits.
- Identity frame
- A reframing technique where you assign a positive identity label to the prospect that makes their desired behavior feel consistent with who they already believe themselves to be.
- Non-committal languaging
- Vague, hedging answers from a prospect that signal they have not emotionally engaged with the problem -- and accurately predict a weak close.
- Domino belief
- The one central belief that, if accepted, makes every downstream objection irrelevant and the purchase feel inevitable -- a concept from Russell Brunson.
- Moral authority
- The tonality quality that communicates you are asking a hard question because you genuinely care about the prospect's outcome -- the opposite of judgment, which triggers defensiveness.
- Verbal pacing
- Deliberately slowing speech and lowering tone when asking a key question so the prospect's brain processes it more deeply before forming a response.
- The mask
- The social facade prospects present on sales calls -- surface-level answers, inflated revenue numbers, vague goals -- that must be removed before real emotional connection can form.
- Flow state (in sales)
- The condition where a salesperson has internalized frameworks so deeply that they stop thinking about what to say and can rest full attention on the prospect, analogous to an athlete in the zone.
Things they pointed at.
03:00bookRussell Brunson -- Expert Secrets (domino belief)
53:00channelTony Robbins -- story-making machines and moment of decision
37:30channelLarry Moss -- acting coach, Jeremy's tonality training source
1:08:20bookGrant Cardone -- executive leadership at scale
54:40bookBlake Warren -- one-sentence persuasion
Lines you could clip.
00:00
“The sale can be won or lost at hello -- you can win or lose the sale in the first minute.”
09:00
“Listen to what the prospect means, not just what they say. Those are two different things most of the time.”
37:00
“If they feel like they can bullshit you, they do not trust you -- how are you gonna get them results if they just bullshit you?”
1:12:48
“Your brain was never built to thrive. It was built to survive. Anytime there is something unknown, we look for external validation to push it down the road.”
Word for word.
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metaphoranalogy
00:00I always say the sale can be won or lost at Hello. Like, literally, you can win or lose a sale like the first minute. I had six years where I made close to $3,000,000 in commission.
00:07I looked through everything not even as a salesperson, but more as a psychologist. So I went to school to become a psychologist. So all we would ever learn about patients is how do you change their belief systems, how do help them change their behaviors, and how do you how to form a new identity.
00:20What would be the things they would wanna undergo to really master? First of all, I would say there's four levels of persuasion. There's
00:28selling. That's where 99% of sales people sell, which isn't bad, but it's never gonna reach you the highest level. Today, talked to Jeremy Minor, and between Jeremy and I, we both run sales training and recruiting companies.
00:39We do over a $100,000,000 a year collectively. So in this podcast, we break down all the best sales strategies we know. We talk about all the most common objections and how to handle them.
00:49We talk about the four levels of persuasion and so much more. So enjoy the podcast. I wanna ask you a question.
00:55Probably nobody's ever asked you this and I've always So in this had to be in late twenty nineteen I went through your sales training, it was right at it was right when I was in my You went through the one point o version.
01:06I went with the one point o version and so I remember going through these initial modules and it was a lot about like it wasn't necessarily the sales training yet.
01:17What you were trying to do is really kind of sell everybody onto the paradigm shift and the big idea around your methodology of selling right? Yeah. And NEPQ and all that stuff.
01:27So you're talking about the old way of doing it and the new way of doing it and you had like clearly a big idea, unique mechanism. And at that time like I was obviously my career was in sales, but I was also very into direct response marketing. Yeah.
01:40And I was like, I haven't even gotten to the sales training yet but this marketing like I call it a copy platform like your overarching messaging that everything else in your business, your social, your ads or whatever stems from. I was like, this copy platform is really good. I remember going through it and thinking I haven't even gotten to the sales training yet but like this guy is literally like a direct response like he knows direct response.
02:01It's just changing belief systems. School
02:03to become a psychologist so all we would ever learn about patients is how do you change their belief systems,
02:09how do have them change their behaviors, and how do you how to form a new identity. Yeah. So what That's literally all we were taught.
02:14So so the and the way I kinda looked at what you were doing is basically there's something called a central marketing thesis now like Russell Brunson calls it I think the domino belief. Mhmm. Yeah.
02:23In sales you can call it your sales thesis whatever it is. Sure. But it's the one belief that if they believe to be true that whatever objections become irrelevant and they buy.
02:31Yeah. And then within that there's essentially like a belief ladder. So there's sub beliefs Mhmm.
02:35And there's basically your claims and your proof against those claims to where if this is true and then that is true and then this is true and also this is true Sure. Then the main conclusion is true. Mhmm.
02:45And so that sounds like kind of That's what I do. Like I said, I'm just I'm I'm I look through everything not even as a salesperson but more as a psychologist. Yes.
02:53Sales second. But really psychology is sales and sales is psychology
02:57with human nature. Once you get to the once you really start to learn how to sell. I there I would say there's four levels of persuasion.
03:04Mhmm. NLP talks a little bit about this. There's features and benefits selling.
03:08So it's like, here's how the thing does this. Here's the benefits of x y z. It's kinda like spin selling a little bit.
03:14Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's where 99% of sales people sell. Yeah.
03:17Features and benefits. Okay. Which isn't bad, but it's never gonna get you the highest level.
03:20I would also argue a lot of sales people don't even do that. Okay. That's okay.
03:24That's You're talking about like out of the sales people who do sales training, you know Who actually are six trying figures. Yeah. In conditions.
03:31They're the ones selling features and benefits. Okay. Valid point.
03:34Then you have the next level is behaviors. Like if I can start getting them to see what actions or behaviors people do that get x y z result, they start to shift.
03:47The next level of that is belief systems.
03:49So like if I ever hear, so I was Hold on, this is really good. So with level two, can you give me an example?
03:55So let's say, I mean it's gonna depend on the industry. So like a behavior would be like, let's say if you're selling like a, let's just say in the coaching space.
04:05Okay. So let's say if you're selling like an ROI offer, like you're selling like business consulting to help scale a company. Okay.
04:12I can say, you know, after I get their goal, financial goal of what they want to have revenue this next year and they, what they want their profit margins to be once their operations, let's say sticks. If that's what I do, I can say so what actions does the man take that
04:28becomes the person who makes $2,000,000 a year? So that is a behavior. So it's starting to shift them into the behaviors of the entrepreneur who does y z.
04:36That makes sense. Makes sense. I never like labeled it that way, but I remember when I was selling, would do a lot of times of like making a compare and contrast between like between this is who you say you wanna be Yeah.
04:47But your actions are over here. Yeah. And so like the real question becomes is like when do you think it's a good time to align
04:54your actions with those words? Yeah. Because so far you're one point o version of yourself.
04:59So I don't even wanna like I don't the biggest thing with with getting them to with emotionally connecting with that other human being or whoever you're talking to is where they feel you're not judging them because then they get defensive, but they feel like you're really concerned about the consequences if they don't change.
05:14I'm not concerned that you say you don't have the money because that's just bullshit. That's just a limiting belief that they have. But I'm concerned about the consequences for them if they don't come with the money to change because I know what's gonna happen if they don't.
05:24Mhmm. And they can feel that I'm concerned about that consequence. And how do you how do you make sure that it doesn't come off judgmental?
05:31That's that's a trace. It's all in your tonality. That's what I was It's all in I knew I knew the answer before I asked the question.
05:36So what does a Which would say the sound like one like staying on stage two with like the behavior thing kind of like the actions. Yeah. How would a judgmental tonality sound versus let's say So okay.
05:47Judgmental,
05:48I'll say the same thing two different tones. So judgmental be like, well, I mean, what's the version of you now, man? I mean, the version of you now is you're living with your mom in your basement and you're making $10 a month.
05:57Like that's your version. So what do you need to become to become the two point o version where you're making $50 a month, man? Mhmm.
06:04Comes off a little bit judgmental. And bro y. And little bit broey.
06:06Yeah. Look, but that's I mean A lot of people do calls? A lot of people do that.
06:11Most people do I've probably been guilty of that at times. Most people do that because they don't they just don't know. So I might say so so right now, you're the one point o version of yourself that's still in your mom's basement making $5 a month.
06:25So what do you need to do? What actions you need to take right here, right now today to become the man, the entrepreneur who now makes $50 a month?
06:35What actions you need to take right now? So just soften that tone a little bit. Mhmm.
06:39I'm saying the same words Yeah. But I'm softening the tone. And the way I like to think about that is,
06:44I don't know if you use this term, but it's it conveys moral authority, which is basically like your your question is the frame of your question is coming across as if you're looking out for their own best interest.
06:56Yeah. Like you're in the So there's that alignment there to where you're kind of like, some people call it like having a sales fiduciary type of responsibility almost. Yeah.
07:03Like you care about them. Like it all it is is like you're showing genuine empathy
07:08about their situation and the consequences if they don't change and they feel that and there's just more trust there obviously. Yeah.
07:15Yeah. Okay. On behaviors.
07:17Yeah. Moving on to
07:19stage three which was Beliefs. Beliefs. Beliefs.
07:22This is a big one. Most salespeople never get to beliefs. Mhmm.
07:24A lot of people do what you did. They they don't really label a behavior. They just say that because they've heard somebody do the track.
07:29But if you understand it, the psychology behind it, that means you can come up with like a track on the dime. You don't even have to think about it. You know, you don't have these one liners you hear from an IG reel or something.
07:39So beliefs are, I'm always listening to the words they say and how they say them. That tells me everything I need to know about them. So I would say third principle in APQ is listen to what the prospect means, not just what they say.
07:53Those are two different things most of the time. So if let's say if I ask them for some type of goal and let's stick to the ROI and they're like, yeah, I wanna make, you know, I mean, I at least wanna do 50,000 a month.
08:09So I heard the word least. So I understand that there's a certain belief system there that they're focused on the least. So when I go to close them, if I keep them in that belief system that the least thing they want, it's hard for me to build a huge gap.
08:25So I gotta get them out of that way, that belief system. So I'm like, I might stop depending on if it's like, if I'm selling to a huge company, it's gonna be a little bit different how I approach this and if I'm selling to like a B2C person. Yes.
08:36Okay. So I might stop and say, so can I make a suggestion on a word that I just heard you say that could be holding us back sometimes?
08:46Mhmm. See, I'm like, could be holding us us back. Not you back.
08:50Yeah. I'm not gonna accuse and I'm really yeah. Sure.
08:53Go ahead. You said the least. Do you ever want have you ever thought that when we focus on getting the least things in life, what do you typically get?
09:03And they'll be like, the least. And you don't come across to me as the person who wants to get the least things in life. Would I be right?
09:10So what do you really wanna make? Oh, that's good. Do you see I'm doing that?
09:13Yeah. It's so interesting. So it's a belief.
09:15Yeah. Helping to overcome the belief about the least and then now I'm changing, then I'm going into the identity. You don't seem like the person
09:21who wants to get the least things in life. That's an identity shift, like negative identity. Yeah.
09:26Then I'm gonna say, so what do you really want? Mhmm. So there's a couple things with that.
09:30Number one is I feel like, because I it's funny because you label it so well and that's something that when they give a goal that's too low where you can tell like Yeah. They're just not even confident in themselves. Mhmm.
09:41You kind of have to intervene to sort of reset. Yeah. But I feel like when you do that, do a couple of things.
09:46Number one is they're like, they internally, I think when you would do that, they're like, first of all, holy shit, this guy's like really actually listening.
09:55Mhmm. Like I can't just like I can't get anything They're present. This guy.
09:58Yeah. They they can feel that you're very present. And I think for the rest of the conversation, it's one of those triggers to where it starts to force more honesty and candidness To open up.
10:09Out of the rest of the conversation because
10:11they know like, oh, I can't get anything past this guy. They actually trust you more. Like they can kind of They're like, okay, this guy sees past the mask.
10:18Yeah. They It's it's like, look, we always talked about this. Tony Robbins talks a lot about it but like even in like psych 101, our professor be like every patient you're meet is gonna wear a mask when you talk to them and it's like, how do you get them to wanna take the mask off and tell you what's really going on?
10:33And so that's the it's just it's the same thing in sales. Yes. So like how do I get them to take the mask off and really open up and tell me because then it's over.
10:41Yeah. It's like a done deal a 100% of time. They , it's over.
10:45I I preach that to my sales team all the time is like we have to force them to have like an actual honest conversation because especially with like small business owners too. You know like like here's one of my favorites. Have you ever asked a small business owner on a
10:59sales call, you know, hey what's your revenue last or or what's your revenue right now? And they're like well you know about a million dollars a year. Then later we might be kind of diving in to diagnose some of their marketing and sales problems and we'll say okay great well and just based on last month, what was last month specifically?
11:15And they'll go 40 k. And so It's like the salesperson that says they make a $100 a month and they've done it one time in six years. Yeah.
11:23And so it's just one of those things where I'm always like, you have to force like the the things behind the wall to come out. Like you have to kind of be this type of person because they they once they see you're not a regular sales person too and they know that, okay, I can't bullshit this person.
11:37This person Yeah.
11:39If know they can't bullshit you, they trust you that you can get them the results. If they feel like they can just bullshit you, they don't trust you. Yeah.
11:45How are gonna get them results if they just bullshit you? And when you could flip that dynamic too,
11:49you're so much less likely to get bullshit at the end of the call Yeah. In terms of excuses or this or that because they're like, they they already have this feeling of like, I gotta be honest with this person.
12:00I can't get things past this person. They're really I
12:03want to I like I talk a lot about preventing objections from happening and what you just said there is the the biggest way you do it is literally getting them to take off the mask. They literally overcome any concerns they have themselves. Yeah.
12:15And what's so interesting about that is it's not objection prevention through
12:19like a little word you said or a rebuttal
12:23that you memorized. Sure. It's almost in a way how you showed up and how you were present in a sense to where like you flipped the dynamic to something that really they probably never experienced before They never thought about it.
12:34With a sales person. They really never like I always say like second part of any BQ is situation question. So how do I find out their real situation?
12:42I always say the real situation, not the surface level stuff they tell you. Because you gotta know, when you first start asking these questions, you're pretty much getting the surface of what's really going on. Most salespeople accept the surface level answers and just go to the next question on their damn script.
12:56And I'm like, there's zero emotional connection. It's all surface level. It's vague, generalized surface level answers and you get a lot of, I wanna think it over, talk to my spouse.
13:04If you're selling to consumers, call me back next quarter, research objections. And it's like, but they showed up to the car, they answered the phone, you had this conversation.
13:13How did they go from having this problem? They raised their hand if they responded to some ad. They've raised their hand basically saying help.
13:19I don't know what's wrong necessarily but something's wrong. So how do we go from there to like, I need to think about, I need to think it over.
13:27Need like it doesn't make any sense to me. So there's something missing in that conversation that caused that to happen. Mhmm.
13:33So that was level three. We still have a fourth level. Identity.
13:36Yes. So you know Sigmund Freud, know, probably heard of Highest driver of all human behavior. Exactly.
13:42So just paraphrasing him basically people do who they believe they are. So they make their decisions based on the identity of who they believe they are. So if I have somebody on there that believes that they have like a there's two different types.
13:56I guess superior complex where you know maybe as a sales training company that they're superior like hey I need to get to this goal but I think I can do it myself. I'll take a few tips and do it myself. Yeah.
14:06And then I have to speak to that person differently than if I'm having somebody that has an inferior complex. They're like, the training's awesome, it works, but it wouldn't work for me because I'm never successful at anything. Right.
14:15They're not necessarily gonna tell you that. Okay? But I have to change I have to I have to get them into that identity of the person who is a forward thinker, who never gives up.
14:26So like, for example, remember I'm listening to what they mean not just what they say. So when we're in future pacing and what we call solution awareness, we're asking like, hey, so before we met, like were you out there looking for x y z Other potential solutions Yeah. To And they're like, oh, you know, like yeah, you know, I let's say you're you're selling to a business owner and you're a marketing agency, for example.
14:48Oh, yeah. You know, we went with, know, x y z marketing agency and it just it never really worked out. Well, hold on.
14:54How do mean it didn't work out? So I'm gonna take them back into the pain of that past history. And then after I do that where they feel that pain, I'm gonna say, wow.
15:00I mean, it sounds like you're the type of person who never gives up. So like a lot of people because if if they say we've tried a few things in the past and it didn't work out and you're in the same industry selling something very similar, what's the likelihood that you're gonna get some type of objection at the end?
15:17No matter what it is, like talk with my partner six times, do more research, think it over. But in reality, it was, is this gonna be just the same thing? Am I just gonna lose more money with this marketing agency?
15:29Right. I have to understand that that belief system is probably still in the back of their mind. So how do I take change that belief system and build them into a new identity?
15:38So all I'm doing is flipping that frame where instead of looking at it as like a negative like, oh, they've tried all these things in the past, maybe they're not gonna think mine's gonna work. I'm just gonna flip it and say, sounds like you're the type of person who never gives up. I say the same thing and then I say,
15:51so if if if I can ask because I'm I'm really just curious. Like you've tried this and you tried that and you tried this and like you're not a quitter. So like I guess why is this so important to you?
16:03Like what has you keep it on? What happens you like? I might have gotten that from you by the way.
16:08That's for sure. No, but it's really good. But it's kind of like a different version of it.
16:11Because you're basically taking their previous behavior and you're kind of like essentially communicating that, hey, that's kind of abnormal, but that's like a really good thing. Exactly.
16:20So like that's a little abnormal and then you're asking them to justify that behavior to you in a Yeah. Frame Yeah. That essentially makes them convey why do they need to do this now though.
16:29Exactly. Without being like the crazy or not crazy, but super lame salesperson on a script. So John, 10 ks a month sounds good.
16:38Why is that important now? And you know, and then John's like, well, obviously I want make more money. Yeah.
16:42Want make more money. They don't know how to camouflage it. Yeah.
16:45So it's you got to have the context.
16:47I that's what sales it's so funny. Like, you know, I'm sure you get this too. If somebody will follow you for years on Instagram or YouTube and, like, I'll get off stage like, man, I've learned so much from, like, your YouTube videos and stuff.
16:56And I'm just like I'm just looking at them like, gosh. Like, they just don't understand the context because it's like just because you do a fifteen minute train on YouTube, like, if you don't understand the context of why you're saying this here or what happens if the question doesn't land, like Yes.
17:12How do I need to loop back around and reask it a different way? If I don't understand all the ins and outs, it's not really gonna help you a ton. Will you sell more probably?
17:19Are you gonna like two, three, five extra sales? No. Because it's like it's like, uh, you know, what neurosurgeon masters brain surgery from watching YouTube videos?
17:28Does anybody master anything by watching IG reels? Unlikely. They're, like, little tips.
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18:18Now back to the video. So but back to the identity. So
18:22really what I just did there, and that's just the start of the identity frame, is really I'm helping them change the belief of what them going through those negative experiences actually means now.
18:33Mhmm. Tony Robbins says this He says human beings are story making machines. Right?
18:36We all make up these stories in our lives and then we attach a meaning to said story. Right.
18:43Does that make sense? So your prospects do the same thing. Mhmm.
18:45So they have a story that marketing agencies, let's say if I'm selling to marketing agencies, are bad because they've had three that didn't work out. So anytime they start talking to a mortgage agency, that means something.
18:56So I'm changing the meaning of that to now. Wow. This bad experience you've had, this has led you here and it sounds like you're the type of entrepreneur who never gives up.
19:06So now I'm starting to shift their belief of what that meaning means. Right. And then I'm gonna go into identity frame.
19:11It sounds like you're the type person that never gives up. And your spouse, let's say if I'm let's say they're really small business owner. It's just them.
19:18And your spouse, let's say I'm talking to a guy, she's lucky to have a provider like you that is that forward thinking and never that is that never gives up and knows they have to make the hard decisions for themselves. Cause I talked to a lot of business owners and you'd be surprised how many of them let some negative like crappy marketing agency just completely prevent them from ever getting like the right leads where they can ever scale their business.
19:41You know what I mean? Mhmm. So that's the start of that.
19:44And so like, oh, no. I would never do that. Like literally, they're probably like, you're starting nobody's ever gonna argue with themselves like that they're a person who gives up.
19:53Yeah. They're gonna be like, I never give up. You're basically using their identity to confirm the question that you asked in a way that sets the belief that you set.
20:00So whatever it is, I'm like, wow, you sound like you're the type of person that's a forward thinker. I thought I mean, it doesn't really matter. But they're never gonna argue with that.
20:06It's not like they're like, nope. I'm not a forward thinker. Nope.
20:09I always give up. Like, don't they're not gonna argue that even if they always give up. They're not gonna argue with that because that's what they want to be.
20:16Nobody wants to be the person who gives up. You just never think that you give up. Never think that your life wherever you're at or what's going on is your fault.
20:24Yeah. You never take most people just never take responsibility. Yeah.
20:28I mean, you know this. Well, it's also like, you know, you've heard that book that's like the
20:32most persuasive nine words or do you know it's by Blake Warren. No. I've heard of that.
20:36The one sentence persuasion lesson or something like that. Okay. But one of the ones is like you wanna confirm their suspicions.
20:42Yeah. Which part of confirming their suspicions is giving them like, oh yeah, like I exactly that's what it was or like it basically alleviating alleviating
20:51that it's their fault. Yeah. It's not your fault.
20:53Exactly. That's what Brunson talks about in his copy. So then I'm gonna so at the end of that, you know what I mean?
20:59They're like, oh, no. I would never do that. So like if I sold like final expense insurance.
21:02Mean, it's the same with we teach all these frames and all these invoices. There's little tweaks. Wow.
21:06It sounds like you're, you know so if they let's say they're like, oh, I you know, I'm looking for this policy for, you know you know, I I don't want to have my my kids pay for this when I pass away, you know, depending on the context, I'm not going to say this early on, but depending on what they say before I might then go into an interview.
21:22Wow. It sounds like you're the you're the type of person that's really responsible and your spouse, I mean, she's lucky to have a provider.
21:30So if I'm talking to a man, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna play to the ego. She's lucky to have a provider like you. So I'm say provider, right?
21:36It's the man provides. Yeah. It's a woman, I'm gonna say, and your spouse, he's lucky to have an independent woman like you.
21:43Oh, that's good. You see the difference? I'm playing to the the ego state.
21:46Okay? The belief systems. You know, the you know, provider like you that is that, you know, that forward thinking and knows they have to make the hard decisions sometimes for the family themselves.
21:57Because I see how I'm like subliminally posting and I don't stop and knows they have to make the hard decisions sort of themselves for the family sometimes. Because I talked to a lot of people and you'd be surprised and they don't really care about leaving all that burden and stress on their kids when they pass. You know what I mean?
22:11It's really hard for a male to be like like disagree with that. They're gonna be like, I would never do that to my kids.
22:16Yeah. Yeah. And then I'm gonna reinforce that.
22:18Didn't like, so for you, like, were you born that way or is that something you had to learn? Oh, that's good.
22:23So whether they say they're born that way or they had to learn, they're now bought into the new identity. It's really hard for them at the end Yeah. To be like, I need to think of this over.
22:32Alright? And if they do, it's like really easy to have them overcome it at that point. That's good.
22:36Yeah. What about somebody staying on stage four who has the superiority complex
22:41Mhmm. Who's kind of like the, oh, I think I know it all. I might need a couple of things.
22:45I mean, get I mean, you know, selling to salespeople. I was just about to say I was about to say while we're on this topic, you can talk about, you know, what's different about also selling salespeople because it's just a it's kind of like a one of a kind unique thing. No.
22:59Their high egos even if they make $50 a year, they're like think they're the They think they're the best
23:03effers in the world. Yeah.
23:04And I'll do a little aside like Yeah. I've had people back when we did our b to c sale training, they'd be like, I mean they'd be making $40 a year and they're like, well, you know, the way it should really work is I mean, I you should be training me for free because you know, the company should be paying to actually, know, paying you guys to place or whatever.
23:24And I'm like, it'd be different if you were good. And
23:27I'd be like, it really just depends on how you want your boss to view you. What do you mean? Well, I mean, for example, the reason why people come to our training programs is because, know, they don't wanna be viewed like going to their boss, like begging them to like buy training for them to make more sales because then they might think you might lead with that training to one of their competitors.
23:46Right? They wanna be viewed like by the boss as like somebody investing in their own skill level because your boss is investing in the business. So they want somebody that they're going to promote into leadership that's already investing their skill level.
23:58So like which way do you wanna be viewed by your boss? So, like, I'm gonna frame that. Yeah.
24:02I call that the who do you wanna become frame. You know? The change It's like who do you wanna be?
24:05Yeah. The real question is, do you wanna be this or that? Exactly.
24:08I think the real question is even a little aggressive in some ways. Yeah. Yeah.
24:11Yeah. It's but but with let's say if a business owner gets on there, you know, that first connection question we might ask, you know, especially if there are larger businesses.
24:19I'm not gonna talk about scaling the business because I might offend them. I might say, yeah, mean, that's a that's a big reason why a lot of companies or space come to us because, look, they're smart. They know that there's always higher levels to get to even when they're at the level they're at now.
24:32So like what level are you looking? So I'm like always saying like they're smart, they know I mean, you're a top salesperson.
24:38You that's why we love working with top reps like you because you know there's always another level to get to. Yeah. So I'm not arguing that they're bad, I'm just reframing that the reason why they're here is because they know that there's always another level to get to.
24:51And and what's and
24:53even with your body language, you're actually creating the gap. Exactly. You know, because there has to be a gap and what I like to say is there's two types of like there always has to be a problem in the sale, but there's two types of problems.
25:05There's a pain where somebody knows they're below par, they're below average and they're just trying to get back there. Mhmm. But then what a lot of people salespeople struggle with is the second one is there's an unfulfilled desire.
25:16Yeah. Where it's like they know if they did nothing it's not like they're gonna be on the street. Yeah.
25:21But at the same time they know they're capable of more. Mhmm. You know?
25:25Yeah. And so anyways I'll let you continue but just as a quick thing to dive into, a lot of salespeople I work with,
25:31they'll complain to me, what what do I do about a guy doing 10,000,000 a year like he has no pain? And so as we're going in the superior how to get him to open up and tell you the pain. Yeah.
25:41As we're going in the superiority superiority complex, touch on that as well. Yeah. It's it's the same thing.
25:45So when I get on there, you know, because you might ask a question like, oh, we're always, you know, they'll be like, oh, we're just looking to sharpen our sword. We're always look to improve. Yeah.
25:52Vague. Yeah. So most of us be like, oh, great.
25:54And then go to the next question. I'm like, dude, you're toast. Toast.
25:57Like you just like that's called non committal languaging. Yeah. So if you let a prospect
26:03just give you a bunch of non committal language throughout that conversation, what's the likely they're gonna commit and buy at the end Or even go to the next step if you're selling enterprise and next step demo like unlikely. Well and the way I like to explain it too is, the whole the whole call is really about the gap.
26:19Like that's the whole frame of the call. So if you just like lay over and accept that non committal language,
26:26like what what is the rest of the conversation even going be about? Because the whole conversation is supposed to be about the problem. Because really sales is a demonstration you could solve a problem for somebody else.
26:34Yeah. You know, so what else are you gonna talk about? You don't even have a topic of the conversation.
26:38The first thing you have to do is establish I would would say the sale can be won or lost at hello. Like literally you can win or lose the sale like the first minute. I think most most people think that like, when you go to close, that's when you win or lose.
26:49I'm like, dude, it's not like when you give like, you want the red one or the blue one, like, I want red. It's not like that caused them to decide to buy. Yeah.
26:56Yeah. They'd already decided they wanted the red one before you asked the damn question. Yeah.
26:59So it's it's interesting. But like with superior people, you just play into their ego. You know?
27:04Like, it's the same thing. If they're like, yeah. We're just always looking to improve.
27:07Yeah. Well, if we never have businesses coming to us that that wanna sell less, they always wanna learn how to what? Sell more.
27:12Right? Is that why you came to us? Yeah.
27:14So I'm just reframe it. I'm kind of like playful. I'm gonna be more playful when I try to reframe beliefs in the beginning because I I I might not have them disarmed yet where they accept a frame.
27:24It's like when we talked about diffusing the pressure. Exactly. If I get the guard down because my playful tone, now they're more relaxed, the nervous system's calmed, and then I can be more like serious and like in their face later on.
27:37You do that too early, you're gonna piss people off. Yeah. So what's like tactical thing you would do?
27:42Let's say they say, oh, we're just looking for ways to improve. You reframe them. Yeah.
27:45What ways do you feel like you might need to improve? Yeah. I'm just gonna take it.
27:48I could either do that. Well, what ways do you feel like you might improve or depending on how they say that. So they come across like kinda cocky and like surface like, well, we're doing good.
27:58We're just we're just always looking to improve. That tells me like their guard's up. So like I'm gonna switch it and I'm gonna be playful.
28:05I'm like, well, we never have companies coming to us that wanna learn how to sell less. They always wanna learn what? How to sell more.
28:11Right? Is that why you came to us? Yeah.
28:12And I like to they're like, oh, yeah. That's why we came here and now I can go into it. Yeah.
28:16But if they're like, oh, you know, we're just I mean, we're always wanting to improve. What what areas do you feel like you need to improve in? It depends on how they say that.
28:22Yeah. So remember, I'm always listening to what they mean, not just what they say. I can listen to what they mean by hearing their tone.
28:30Yeah. Because that's how your brain deciphers.
28:32And let's let me give you a scenario because this is one where salespeople will, they'll ask me about it. But you know, maybe the salesperson says, okay, well what's the next level for you look like? And they'll be like, well I'm at 10,000,000, I wanna get to 30,000,000.
28:43Like okay, well what's what's keeping you from being able to get there? And the person just goes, well just time. Right?
28:49How would you handle that? Or would you not approach it that I think I would set myself up. You wouldn't set yourself up that way.
28:54Because I think that's I I'll give you a band aid approach, but I don't know if I'd because I get more specific. That's a good question like,
29:01you know, what level do you wanna get to? But like, okay. So you're 10,000,000 now.
29:05Let's say that we came in. What am I selling? Just give me something.
29:08Or you could just do sales training. That's fine. So you're 10,000,000 now.
29:11Like, let's say that we came in and we trained your people, you know, the right disarming techniques, the right questions asked at the right time.
29:23Where do you feel like you could get in the next twelve months if your reps really started to master this. Something like, I'm really pacing out the question because when you pace out questions like that and you kinda end up in a concerned tone, your prospect will think deeper about what you just asked.
29:40Mhmm. This is verbal pacing rather than just me going fast. Okay.
29:44So I'm going to get more specific. I'm attaching if we came in and did this, this and this.
29:49So I'm already at future pacing here. Where do you feel like you could get to? I'm always going to say feel because I want to keep them on their emotional side of the brain, not think that's logical.
29:58Okay. So what do you feel like you could be? Right?
30:01And I'm just gonna like lower that tone. And it caused them to think a little bit deeper. Now, doesn't necessarily mean they're just gonna be like, oh, 30,000,000 like open wide up.
30:09They might just give you a stupid answer like, oh, I don't know. I think we get to 15. Hold on.
30:13So 15. I mean, is that your humble goal? I mean, what do you really want once you have the best experience?
30:17You can tell me, man. I'm you know, it's, you know, I'm not gonna go I'm not gonna go post on Instagram. You know, I'm not you know, my guys be like, you can tell me, Mandy.
30:24I'm yeah. I'm not we're not gonna have Jeremy post on Instagram. You know, no laugh.
30:27Like, well, man, if I really could, I'd really like to do 30. Okay. 10 to 30.
30:31That's a big difference. Why is the 30,000,000 important to you? So, but when they're asked that more serious.
30:37So I'm gonna literally go play full tone and then like in a second, like back to serious. Yeah. I like to say if they like, especially if they say it quickly like 30, I'll be like, okay, well it seems like you've
30:48thought of that or considered that number before. So I'm curious like why that number?
30:53Because it it kind of, again, it it shows that you're asking them to justify a behavior to you. It's like they have to qualify to you opposed to the other way around. Yeah.
31:02And it also seems curious because it shows through I'm listening that like, oh wow it seems like you were set on that. It seems like you had thought about It's like you've already thought about that number. Why that number?
31:10Yeah. I mean like here's the thing like every
31:13rep looks like this perfect word trap but what you just said and what I just said basically accomplishes
31:19the same thing. It's the principles. It's the right You kinda have to know like there's that principle in NLP where it's like if you know the outcome a lot of times and you stay present on the sales call Yeah.
31:29The right thing will actually come up if you are sounding like the principles And that's the problem with most salespeople is they
31:36they're never really they're never really present in the conversation. Why? Because they're always thinking about what should I say next?
31:42What should I ask next? I don't know what to ask next. That's the problem because they're not really listening to what they mean.
31:48Mhmm. So they're just like accepting some answer and going to the next question they just thought of. But when you understand the psychology and the principles behind it, quietly, do you have a framework?
31:56You're always gonna stay in that framework. Like we always teach frameworks. Right?
31:59Like from connection questions to commitment questions. But within that framework, have flexibility with that framework because I understand the psychology behind what I'm looking for at each part of that conversation.
32:10So
32:11I might say some, you know, I can take whatever they just said to the last question and instantly tweak the next question like in like a nanosecond. Yeah. I don't even think about it, You know?
32:21What I tell my salespeople is they need to train so hard to where they can almost like a meditation, they can rest their attention on every word and facial expression of the prospect and their training needs to be good enough before the call to where as woo woo as the sounds, the right thing will just come out. Yeah. Like that's probably how you are if you take a sales call, mean you've done a tremendous amount of training.
32:40It's like you're not even thinking, it's like you're in flow state, which is literally like almost flow state is like the combination of meditation and performance almost. Like you're not in your head, you're in your body and actually things are coming through you.
32:52Well, I know it sounds No. It's true.
32:55Like you know, one of our reps like brought me in to like say hi to this $50 package this this business owner was buying from us. It's like $50 up front and like another 150 over the years, something like that.
33:07And I thought I was just coming in to say hi. So I come in, I say a few words, ask him a question. I can tell he's not a 100% bought.
33:14I just like like hear it in his tone. Mhmm. Right?
33:16He's this big hedge fund manager in New York City. And I'm like, okay. So I'd really like to start a probing in and diving in.
33:21And it took me like, I was a little bit rusty, you know, but it took me like fifteen minutes and I'm finding out like fifteen minutes later, the reason why he wants to train for his team is because right now he's like closing all these big deals. And he's, like, in his, what, mid fifties, and he wants to get a valuation on his company in the next five years and retire.
33:40But he's like, dude Came in risk. Got him out of it. He's like, dude, when I get this valuation, you know, instead of getting like, you know, 800,000,000, I'm probably only getting a half of that because the business is tied around me closing these big deals.
33:52Mhmm. And so I'm like, so who do you need to become? You know, who so what do you need to do right here, right now to become, you know, you know, to become the business owner that's able to exit for 800,000,000 because your team actually can do what you do.
34:04And so that was his biggest why, but the rep had never found any of that out. Yeah. It was all surface.
34:10And then he started I started diving in like why him wanting to exit was so important at that age. He said, well, my dad was, you know, worked till he was 80 and we never saw him. And now he's like going back into like his childhood.
34:20Oh. This is why he wants to change. So that's identity stuff.
34:23Yeah. And when they're like when they're bought in like I have to change because my dad was never present. My rep is like how does that have anything to do with his team selling more?
34:31I'm like it has everything to do with it. Yes. Yeah.
34:34Well the other thing is too is when you can actually get them to tell you a specific
34:37story about the why like Tony Robbins calls it the moment of decision. Yeah. When they have to re explain that to you Mhmm.
34:44More importantly number one themselves but also by re explaining
34:49that emotional situation it brings those emotions to the surface. And those emotions are the emotions of what? Yeah.
34:55Change. Yeah. Have the it takes them to the they have that pain from the past.
35:00Their pain I would say the two biggest emotional drivers cause someone to change are pain of what's going on now, current state Mhmm. And their past.
35:08So right there's an example of he felt pain from the past, his dad not being around, which automatically causes your brain to have a fear of future pain.
35:18Right. That he's not gonna be there for his son because he's still working. So automatically when I take him back to the past, it causes the brain to have that fear that that's gonna keep happening or could happen in the future.
35:29Yeah. And that's when it's, like you said, it's easy for them to wanna change at that point.
35:35Yeah. So when I talk to, you know, our mutual friends, Matt, Eli, bunch of other people. What we always say about you is it's like the guy's tonality is unmatched.
35:45You know, you got the best tonality. So, but I'm curious because I also know some people will criticize, you know, maybe your sales training or whatever because they maybe think the tonality is not replicatable.
35:57You know? Oh, you know, doesn't work for me because Jeremy's just got all, you know, he just has that special how yet. Yeah.
36:04So but I'm curious. Yeah. How do you really, like if I'm a sales rep and I wanna train how to do the tone the right way.
36:12Mhmm. What would be the things they would wanna undergo to really master First of all, want, I mean, typically we hear that from people who are not clients. They're just following Instagram.
36:22Well, they're just talking shit. They're
36:24just you can't master anything from sixty second reels. Right? Yeah.
36:28Like I went through I was trained tonality, body language, verbal framing, which is how do you frame simply by the sound of your voice?
36:38But that's what actors and actresses are taught. I was trained by Larry Moss. So he's an acting coach, Leonardo da Vinci's a client, Jennifer and no, Jennifer Gardner, Tobey Maguire, a bunch of hugglers.
36:50So he teaches like actors and actresses how to use your body language, how to use your tone, verbal pace because that causes people watching the show to stay engaged.
37:01Yeah. You can draw them in. Exactly.
37:03Yeah. Like if I if I what I would say to our clients, I'm like, if you look like, if you just come in your office and you just put the NEPQ headphones on and you get in NEPQ mode now, then you take them off at the end of the day and just go back to how you normally communicate.
37:17It's gonna take you five times longer. You just gotta use this in everyday life. So let's say your girlfriend comes home today and she's like, oh my gosh, it's been such a stressful day.
37:26You feeling like stressful? Concerned tone? Put your hand on your chest, shows that you care like, well, how do you babe, how do you mean by stress?
37:34What's going on? The concern tone, that type of stuff just doing that in everyday life when you get into a sales situation, don't even think about it.
37:43It just instantly happens. Yeah. So it's just daily.
37:46It's just like doing daily things like that when you're talking to people. And and what do you think because I've seen some people let's say they they're trying to do the tone
37:55and sometimes like because what you do so well is you you know, have the concern tone but also like in some of the beginning of the sales situations it's a little bit of like the confused Depends on the context.
38:08Yeah. And so anyways, I see some people maybe they overdo it. Yeah.
38:11And the pros that, you know, in in the effort to try to stay a little bit neutral and not sort of have authority Yeah. The prospect just like tramples them. Right?
38:20Yeah. So what do you tell the sales obvious. What what do you tell the salespeople who are It's making that mistake.
38:24Don't rehearse it enough. Like like, look, if I if I want to be an actor who makes $20,000,000
38:29a film, like how much do you think Johnny Depp or Leonardo, like role plays this role before they just go and shoot it?
38:37It's not like they just get the script and just run-in there and shoot it. Right? They literally like rehearse this thing like tons before they even get in there.
38:44Mhmm. It's like Steph Curry. It's like he's not shooting three pointers just in the game.
38:47He shoots like 503 pointers a day, seven days a week. Yep. Right?
38:51So they just don't rehearse enough. I'm just telling you like most people do not rehearse this stuff a lot. They hear it one time, they don't even really write it down and they try to mimic it and your brain can't retain that.
39:03Like if you hear me do something like that on a IG reel and you try to then go out and do it on a call fifteen minutes later, you're gonna forget probably 80% of what I just did there because your brain literally loses retention that quick. So what helps our clients is just everyday life. That's how they communicate.
39:19So they might like, you know, be playful. Like they sit down and somebody ask them like, how are you doing today? Oh, you know, just hanging out, being crazy over here.
39:27What about you? Do anything crazy? Like just stupid stuff like that.
39:29Yeah. So like when I get in a sales situation, I don't have to say the same thing every time. But because I understand the principle, I literally can shift and do something else.
39:38Know, like we had a, you know, we had one of our salespeople. He's he now started his own sister in the company, but this is a long time ago. Instead of saying, oh, know, if the prospect asked how you doing today, just hanging up being the boring guy.
39:47He would say like, oh, just hanging out being Asian because he was Asian. Oh, know who you're talking about. And and people But would just see, he understood the principle.
39:55You know, we weren't saying to say that but because he understood the principle that he could shift it to him and his personality. Yeah. What about because I've always trained virtual.
40:04I've always done virtual. Mhmm. You know, I guess I'm a little new school.
40:07Yeah. But you guys train a lot of in person. Yeah.
40:09What about in person sales too. Physical Mhmm.
40:13Body language? Like, are some of the top two or three keys there?
40:17I think I think a lot of salespeople have been trained this thought that you gotta mirror the prospect.
40:24And I'm I'm totally on board for that, but eventually, you gotta get the prospect to mirror you. If you wanna take more, like, get them to qualify to you, you don't wanna do everything they do.
40:34So I can shift in and start doing some things they're doing, but eventually, I'm gonna start getting them to shift more my way. So it's it's just more qualification. So like I said, I'm listening to what they mean, not just what they say.
40:47So if I can see them, even if I can see them virtually, I can read kind of I read their tone, right? How their tone sounds is gonna tell me a lot, but I can also read their body language.
40:57You know, if they're like, I think, I mean, I think it could work when you ask it like a closing question.
41:06Yeah. Hold on. You think it could work or you know this is gonna work?
41:10You know, so it would depend on what they, the cost I just like say, you think you can I just laugh? I'm like, what's really I gotta get there right now because those are two different types of people, right?
41:21Yeah. Depending on what I'm selling. Yeah.
41:23So I'm gonna say that. So with body language, you just have more advantage. That's what we say.
41:27If somebody gets on virtually and they have their camera off, I want to try to get their camera on. I can't sound creepy though. Yeah.
41:34Right? Like, oh, I wanna really see who we're working with. Like, that's fucking creepy, man.
41:38But like, how do I get their camera on so I can see their body language? Because that just helps me decipher what they're really thinking. If I have their tone and their body language, I have an advantage for sure.
41:47How do you get their camera on? It depends on the context, but, like, typically and so funny because a lot of people, like, I hear them all the time now. Can you hear me?
41:54Can you see me? I'm like, that is not what we train. We never get on there and just say, can you hear me?
41:59Can you hear me? Like, why would you say that? Their camera's already on.
42:02Course they can see you. Like, don't be stupid. Yeah.
42:04You know? So like, if the camera's off so if you wanna say, can you hear me?
42:08I might say, how well can you hear me? My mic is messed up. How hey.
42:11How well can you hear me? I I was just on a call and they couldn't hear me very well. Don't say, can you hear me?
42:16Because that's a different answer. Yeah, can hear you, but maybe it's not that well. Hey, how well can you hear me?
42:20I might start with that. You don't have to. Hey, how well can you hear me?
42:23My mic was messed up with the, with one of our clients. Oh, I can hear you pretty well. And are your is your video broken?
42:30I I can't see. Is your is your video broken? So like I'm acting confused.
42:34Yeah. Right? And hey, I can't is your I can't see.
42:36Is your is your video broken? A lot of times like, oh, and they'll just turn it on. I do the same thing.
42:41Okay. But a lot of people like, is your video broken? I can't see you.
42:44I'm like, that's not what I did. Like, I'm acting like I'm confused.
42:48Like, I I don't understand. Like, is your video broken or I because I can't see you. Like, I'm acting Well, even is your video broken is different than, hey, your camera 's not on because if your is your video broken, forces them to correct the record.
43:00Yes. No. My video is not broken.
43:02And then it's hard for them not to turn it on. They feel awkward socially. Yeah.
43:05And then it's like, well, I just I don't you know, I just I always keep my camera off in these calls. Dude, what's going on, man? It's 12:45.
43:11Are they still in your pajamas or what's going underwear. I Yeah.
43:15Say, oh, man, if I knew that was the case, would have wore my underwear on here. Like, I put my pants on today just for you. You're killing me right now.
43:22Yeah. As long as you're playful, like, they'll just laugh and turn it on, man. Yeah.
43:26It doesn't matter. It's just it's because it's almost socially embarrassing at that point for them to still keep it off.
43:32It's really hard. Yeah. Let's rapid fire some objections, Jan?
43:35Yeah. Okay. Cool.
43:37So the these are the most common ones people wanna know the answers to. So the classic, I wanna think about it. Sounds good.
43:44You know, can I just think about this, get back to you in three or four days? It depends on what you sell.
43:50So give me an industry.
43:52Let's do, I first sold lead generation training to real estate agents.
43:57Okay. Fun fun market. Good way to train if you're a beginner.
44:00It depends on the context. Yeah. If I had them open or not open.
44:04Let's just say I had them open. I'm gonna say so say that to me again. Well define open and not open because some people might not understand what you mean.
44:09So openness like I've got them to remove the mask they've opened up emotionally. Yeah. Right?
44:14And I've, you know, like they understand the consequences of not changing. I'm gonna say it a little bit differently than if they've been, like, readably closed off.
44:22Let let let's assume open for this one. Okay. Let's do it.
44:24So say that to me again.
44:25Man, it sounds good. Like, this sounds great. I just wanna take a couple nights think on it and then maybe I can Hold on.
44:35Get your You
44:37need to take a couple of nights to think about getting three times as more listings. So you can stop losing $50,000 a month?
44:49Well, I mean, it's obviously I I want those results. Well, why do you want those results?
44:55Because my business hasn't been doing as good as it And why has your business not being good as it could be? Because I, well, I don't have the right lead generation system in So
45:05how's that gonna change
45:07if you keep pushing this off? Well, I I agree. I I just wanna take some time to make sure this works.
45:12Why do you agree though? Well, know I have to do something.
45:16Do you know you have to do something? Because a lot of people would say, I know I have to do something, but then they never do anything about it. Have you seen agents like that?
45:23Yeah. And where do they typically go? Well, they don't do well.
45:26Okay. And you don't sound like the type of person who doesn't wanna stay not doing well. So what do you really want?
45:32What's gonna put you in the best position for you to get an extra three listings a month, an extra 50 a month. It's doing something.
45:40I just gotta make sure this is the right thing. Well, tell me why you getting three extra listings and $50 a month would be the wrong thing. Will you say that again?
45:48Tell me why you getting these extra listings would be the wrong thing for you. Because we all know where you're at right now is where.
45:54Is it the right thing or the wrong thing? The wrong thing. Why?
45:58Because I don't have the right lead generation systems in place. Okay. So if we continue, if we still
46:04stay that person that keeps pushing it down the road like a lot of agents do out there and we keep pushing that out, how would this actually change?
46:14It won't change. Okay. And here's the thing.
46:17Like, I'm sure it's not your real intention to keep this $15,000 in your bank account for the rest of your life and just hope and pray it stays there with inflation. Right?
46:26I'm sure your real intention is to never have to worry about money again in your life. Right? Yep.
46:30So what's gonna put you in the best position where you become the person who actually gets an extra $50 a month in your bank account? Is is probably doing doing And I'm gonna go through that.
46:40Now I might have to reframe you 17 more times Yeah. Before I get there. So let's so let me ask a few questions for the audience.
46:45Number one, some some sales people think that
46:48you maybe should never cut somebody off, but you cut me off several times. Mhmm. So interjecting.
46:54And I'm interjecting. Well hold on John, what caused you to say that?
46:59See the reason why I can do that and get away with it is because I've already built a gap in that conversation like where they felt massive pain. Yeah. And have a fear of future pain and I can get away with that because they trust me.
47:10Because of the trust. Because they trust me. Now if I'm not very good at sales and like I've triggered the hell out of them the whole time and they've been closed off, is that gonna work?
47:17No. But I'm not gonna put myself in that position. Yeah.
47:20I always like to say, let me pause you for a moment. You know, that's a good, it's like very disarming in a way. Hold on.
47:26It's like another good one. Another one you could do is like, yeah, sure. I mean, you can think about it for, you know, a day, a week, a month, a year, ten years, even fifty years.
47:35But where is that gonna get you at the end of the day? That's good. So I could do that too.
47:39I could just be playful. And then, like, but where is that gonna get you at the end of the day? Hey.
47:42If you're enjoying this video and you wanna work more personally with either me or my team, we can help you in two different ways. Number one, we can help you install marketing systems so you can generate more leads and ultimately scale the revenue of your business. Or b, we could help you with your sales team by placing setters or closers in your business.
47:56And if they don't perform, you don't pay. We can also help you scale your sales team, systematize your management, all of that stuff as well. So if you're interested in either of those, there's a link in the description or in the first comment.
48:07You can check it out. Now back to the video. Also,
48:10the other thing I wanna point out is you ended every single thing you said, basically, with a question.
48:18Mhmm. Right? Why is that important?
48:20Because it so depending on what the question is, it gets into buy in. You would say, well, they would do this.
48:25Like, why would they do that though? So that's behaviors. Right?
48:30So a lot of salespeople will stop. They'll they'll ask the question that I just asked and they'll say, well, like, well, that agent would they would do it. And then and then they'll just try to close.
48:39But but hold on. Why would that agent do it? Mhmm.
48:43And so now I have to get more buy and more commitment. Okay. And that depend on what they say that will that the agent would do it because of that that and that.
48:50Right. And you don't and like notice how you said something like you don't sound like the type of person who because I got you to say like, oh, those agents out there never go anywhere. And I then I came back and said, you don't sound like the type of person who never wants to go anywhere.
49:02Would I be right? Mhmm. So what's gonna put you in the best position?
49:04Now I'm going in for the close again. If that doesn't work, then I'm gonna come back and loop around with another frame. There's here's the thing, because the thinking over objection that obviously we all know that's not a real objection.
49:14They're not gonna go think about anything. Nobody does that. There's have some type of concern Yes.
49:19That what you're saying is not gonna get them where they want to. So if I can find out what the real concern is and then I help them overcome that concern, it's pretty easy.
49:29How do I do that? I gotta get their guard down first. So if I have an open person, I've already got their guard down so I can get away with what I just did.
49:38If they're closed off, I have to do that a little bit more skillfully. I can't necessarily call them out yet. Might say, sure, that's not a problem.
49:46Yeah. You can call me back in a week, a month, a year, ten years, twenty years. I don't know.
49:50Whatever you wanna do. Just so I know, because maybe you get back to me in a couple weeks.
49:56What was it that you're wanting to go over in your mind just so I know what questions you'll have when we talk again? Yeah. A lot of times they'll say, well, and they'll tell me the concern.
50:03They're like, well, it's just a it's just a big decision. I need to see if we have the budget.
50:06Yeah. So now it's I don't have to say and think it over. It's just a money objection.
50:10And now I'm gonna go there. Right. So you know what's interesting?
50:13I I suppose see intuitively, know what you're saying because if I have somebody who I've really connected with Mhmm.
50:21First approach you did was a little bit more, I wouldn't call it steamrolling Mhmm. But it's kind of more steamroll Yeah. Ish.
50:26You can do it. I so intuitively, sometimes I'll break my own rules and I'll do that.
50:31Mhmm. My standard though is to do actually what you just did, which is, hey, no problem. And then what I do is I assume I you know, no problem.
50:37I can disarm them. You get them. The guard.
50:39And then what I do is I say, you know, and let's just take the decision off the table for a second. Think about what we talked about. You know, we talked about step one, step two, step three.
50:46So ultimately, you could get result. And so I have no problem with you wanting to think about it, but like, what do you think is keeping you from being less than a 100% certain that that is actually going to work?
50:56Yeah. Because now you're gonna get the real concern. Cause cause that reveals what the real concern is and the reason I ask it like that That's good.
51:02Is I take think about it and then I basically convert it to, oh, like I almost mishear it as you don't think it's gonna work. So I spit that back out of them and guess what a lot of times what they either I get the real objection or oh no no no I do think it's gonna work. Hold on.
51:17Why do you feel like it's going to work? Oh. No.
51:20When
51:21they come back and say that, yes. You know, I do think it's gonna work. I'm a say, well, why do you feel like it's gonna I mean, is it gonna take them back from the feeling side?
51:28Why do you feel like it's gonna work? So I'm gonna give them like, well, I feel like it's gonna work because of this, this, and this. And depending on what happened in that conversation, then it depends on what frame I'm gonna use next.
51:37But that's just you you did well. First of all, you have to disarm them to get their guard down. So if they've been kind of like surface up with you, that's the approach I'm gonna take.
51:44If they've been if I've got them really open, I can be really direct with those frames and they'll they'll just go with it Yeah. Because they already trust me. And once again, it also depends on what you sell.
51:53Like, for sales training, we just look at them in the face. We're like, how many of your prospects give you that same objection? Mhmm.
51:59They're like, oh, oh, oh. And then, like, well, what do you say to them? Well, I say blah blah blah.
52:04How many of those actually buy from you? Okay. So what do you feel like I should say for to you?
52:09And a lot of times like, let's just do it. Yeah. Yeah.
52:11But I can get away with that in sister. I can't do that if I'm selling cabinets. It's it's like fourth wall selling.
52:15Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
52:16It's like lunch breakers. You can get that with too. Know?
52:18Exactly. You can do that with like some business people. They're small business owners and salespeople.
52:23You obviously, if you're selling like, you know, flooring, you're not gonna say that to the prospect. So it really depends on the industry.
52:29Okay. Let's do a
52:30coach, let's say, who's coaching business owners, whatever. Mhmm. And let's go, oh, this sounds really good.
52:38I I definitely wanna do it. You know, I just need to talk with my wife before I do this, and then maybe we could follow-up with a How does your wife feel about
52:47you scaling your business to $10,000,000 a year? Oh, she's very supportive.
52:54Why? Because a lot of a lot of spouses aren't.
52:57Oh, yeah. Just their spouse could actually do it. I picked a good one, you know.
53:01She's always been supportive with what I've done. We have a shared bank account, so I just wanna make sure that you know, she doesn't see $10 leaving the bank account and then Yeah. You know.
53:10Because I mean in reality like if you went to her right now,
53:14I mean, because how did, how does she, I mean, how does she feel about you losing? You're talking about $500 a month right now.
53:22How does she feel about you losing $500 a month simply because you don't have the right leads yet? Well, she's, she's stressed about it because she sees me stressed. So is she more stressed about you losing $500,000 a month or would she be more stressed about you investing 10,000 into your business where you now get to $10,000,000 a year?
53:43Yeah. Well, I just think Like if you thought about it, which would cause her more stress? The $500.
53:49Why?
53:49Well, it's a lot more money.
53:52Yeah. And how many months are we gonna keep pushing down the road where we keep losing $500 a month.
54:00Are you okay with me saying that? Can I stop you for a second? Yeah.
54:02So did you know that you you you really interjected right when I was about to give you an answer you didn't want?
54:10Mhmm. So why did you do that? Because I could tell by your tone like you were starting to go down a negative path and I could tell by your facial expression.
54:17Yeah. Yeah. More about that.
54:19That was good. You know, it's so funny. I I do the same stuff.
54:22It's like, because it's it's almost like there's always like these parallel universes all they call can go on. Mhmm. And it's like I gotta keep it on the track I wanna keep it on.
54:30And sometimes it's just like you have to interject it. Anytime somebody says Oh, it's good.
54:34Got it. I was
54:36like, dude. I mean, I had an eighteen year sales career. Yeah.
54:39I saw a lot of prospects. That's why a lot of people that like start their own sales training companies after like selling for six months. I'm like, you just, you don't know enough yet.
54:46You haven't talked to enough prospects. You can't like, it takes a lot of people to talk to you before you really and I'm like trained in this stuff, like trained to like see it, you know? But like if I only sold a year and I started my sales training company, like I wouldn't know anything because I don't have all the wisdom experience of that just right there of what I just did.
55:05Yeah. Because I've talked to so many prospects, I can tell when somebody says I really want to do this, what that means. It's never been like, I really wanna do this, where do I pay?
55:13Like that that's something, you know, I, you know, this sounds great. I really wanna do this. Does anybody say this sound, you know, this sounds great with this tone.
55:21This is, this sounds great. I I really wanna do this. So what do I pay?
55:25Like nobody says Yeah. But you know the buts coming. I know the buts coming.
55:28Yeah. So I'm gonna interject. Hold on.
55:29Why do you feel like you really wanna do it? So I can already tell I know what's gonna come. Yeah.
55:33But it's like, man, I I like I I have to do this. Like, I know I need this. Like and I I'm gonna wait because that tone more certainty in their tone tells me that I'm gonna get that
55:45maybe closer to the answer that I want to. Yeah. That was good.
55:48That's one of those things that you only can really learn from experience in some ways. It's very hard to teach that through a Google Doc, you know, a script.
55:57Very hard to be like, if if tone looked like, you know, it's like Well, that's a lot of time for all reps, you know, because I do training called, you know, the last like seven months I I started doing a couple of training calls a week for my reps and stuff rather than some of our trainers. Sounds like, yeah, I gotta teach these guys how to really sell.
56:11Our conversions were, 39%. I'm like, we gotta eat 50. Like, there's like, our brand is big enough where because we're looking at some these calls, 15% of people that show up buy no matter what the rep says.
56:21Right. They could be like my seven year old daughter and they're ready to pay. Right.
56:24Like we should our conversion should be higher. And so a lot of the reps in Denver like, Jeremy, where should I use that frame?
56:31I'm just like, you might not use it at all. It just depends on the context. Like there's no straight jacket interpretation like after they say this, you're always gonna use this frame.
56:42Like you do what I'm saying? Like, but if you teach them like the principles and the psychology behind it, that's when they have flexibility know what to do.
56:51But it's, it just takes a lot of times experience, you know, like our reps would be like, man, know, and I'm collecting $300 a month. Like when am I gonna get to, you know, $800 a month?
57:00I was like, it's just gonna take time, man. Like you've, you literally have been here for six months. Like it, it takes time.
57:06Let's do one more. Yeah, let's do Okay. So,
57:09you know, this sounds,
57:11I mean, this is the best option I've heard so far. Hold on. Why do you feel like this is the best option, man?
57:17Are you is that what you say to everybody? Well, yeah. Sometimes.
57:21No. Could be trouble. But I mean, seriously, why do you feel like this might be the best option?
57:26Well, far so out of everybody I've spoken with, this is the best thing that I've heard. I like how you guys focus on tonality and sales training and you know, mindset around the reps and deciding Why do you feel like your reps need that?
57:42Well, they're not doing it right now. Yeah. So what happens if they don't get that today?
57:48Well, here's the thing. Is See, I'm gonna try to cut that off just because I hear it.
57:52I couldn't even give the objection. I thought couldn't get the objection.
57:54But give me the objection was like, Give me the objection this time. Okay. So I was like, damn it.
57:59I couldn't even fucking That's objection prevention. You just cut the objection off first. You just cut it off.
58:03That's what I mean by go ahead. The best option I've heard so far, I just wanna talk with one other company on Monday and then make a decision from there.
58:13Yeah. Sure.
58:14What are you he can always get back to me in a week, a month, a year. I don't care.
58:19What are you hoping that other company's gonna say?
58:21Well, maybe that they're as good as you guys and they're for less price. Do you think they're gonna say they're worse than us?
58:28Well, what now? What salesperson says they're worse than the other salesperson?
58:34You ever met one of those? They always say what? Oh, they're the best.
58:37Yeah. So but, obviously, what do you think they're gonna say? They they they're gonna think they're the best.
58:41Yeah. Now you said something about cheaper. So it's like the the cheapest price the most Oh, I was just kinda being Well I was kinda being funny, but, you know, I just wanna see what they have to say.
58:50Yeah. For sure. I'm just going back to the price though, like is the cheapest price the most important thing to Or actually like the skill level where you get to $20,000,000 a year?
58:58It's it's a I wanna make sure it's working. Why?
59:01Because you know, whether it's 10 or 20, I mean, the results are gonna be,
59:06you know, 10 x that if it works. Yeah. So let's say you go to this other company and let's say that you feel like they can generally solve some of the same problems that you're having now.
59:17And let's say the price points are somewhat similar. I mean, how would you then decide who to go with? Well, I guess I'd have to sit down and look over the proposals and All the proposals are gonna be all fancy and good.
59:28I can send you a fancy proposal. But in all reality, what's what's you see all that. What's gonna cause you to feel like who you should go with at that point?
59:37You can tell me. We're on we're on the same team.
59:39Yeah. I guess just intuition. What does your intuition say right now?
59:44That's probably you guys. Why? Yeah.
59:48I just I just I mean, as, you know, I kinda wanted to just make sure I made a good decision.
59:53I mean, look, we all know people out there that just, you know, and I'm not saying you're this type of person. The person says one day I'm gonna do it or I'm gonna do a lot more research or your business. How many of your prospects say that to your sales guys?
1:00:05Like, gonna do more research. I'm gonna talk to a bunch of more companies. And where do those where do they typically go?
1:00:12They just don't do anything. Yeah. And you don't sound like the type of person who doesn't wanna do anything.
1:00:18No. So what do you really want?
1:00:20I wanna do it. So So I might go break down break down that track for me real fast. There's a lot of nuances there.
1:00:27Where do you me to
1:00:29I mean, it's like, it was like a slippery slope. So I don't know, I guess at the beginning. Oh, God.
1:00:34So the first one when I cut you off, I can already tell by your facial expression and your tone that an objection is coming. So the first thing I'm gonna do, well, hold on. Why though?
1:00:42Why do you feel like it's the best option? Though? So I'm gonna get, cause I want them to tell me why it's the best option and more importantly tell themselves.
1:00:48And again, it redirects
1:00:50that path. Like they're going down a path. You can kind of see it and just,
1:00:54yeah. I'm redirecting that path. Now that doesn't mean like 99% of the time they're still gonna come back to the objection.
1:01:01But what I'm doing there is I'm trying to take them from it's usually the price or the cost. Right? I wanna take them from that price or cost based thinking to focusing back on the results.
1:01:10So that's why I go there first. They're like, well, the reason why is we have to have the tonality. We wanna get to 10,000,000.
1:01:16So now I'm starting to reframe their mind back into the end result. Okay? And now they're gonna come back usually and still say the objection, but now I'm starting to reframe them into that result, which gives me more leverage.
1:01:26Remember, I'm not doing this to them. I'm doing this for them. So they overcome their bullshit stories and they can have what they want, you know?
1:01:32Mhmm. And so the the second time when you when you said that, what did I what did I say? You said you wanted to go look at some different companies.
1:01:39I just agreed. I'm like, yeah, that's not a problem. You're coming back in a week, a month, doesn't really matter.
1:01:43What are you hoping that company is gonna say to you? So by you answering that, it's not all the time, but most of the time your answer is going to kind of tell me what you're, what's holding you back with me maybe.
1:01:55They might say, well, I just want to see what options they have, you know, what their price points are. So I'm like, okay, cost is an issue right in their mind. That tells me that.
1:02:04Okay. And whatever they say there. Now they might come back and say, well, I just always look at different options.
1:02:08Oh, yeah, for sure. What are you hoping those options show you? So I'm just like, they just didn't give me an answer.
1:02:12I'm like, oh, yeah, sure. Like what what are you hoping those options are gonna show you? I'm just literally, like, loop back around and reask the same question a different way Yeah.
1:02:19Until I get you to open up. Yep. And so you told me, you said, oh, I you said, I just wanna what'd you say?
1:02:25I wanna compare things. I just wanna, you know, dot my eyes and cross my t's or whatever. Cross my t's, see what they're, you know you know, if they're cheaper.
1:02:31You said that that I heard that word. So I mean, like, so is it so I immediately went to, like, I'm gonna try to get the cost thing. So is the cheapest so I always, like, really even if they say, wanna look at a lower price or I just wanna compare prices, I'm automatically gonna say, so is the cheapest.
1:02:46Cheap sounds bad. And most people don't like the cheap. It's correct the record thing again.
1:02:51So I'm gonna reframe them again. Like, so is the cheapest price the most important thing to you or actually like scaling your company to $10,000,000 a year? So that's taking them out of price or cost basing into the end result.
1:03:02Yeah. And even with your body language, what you're doing is you're I I don't even know if you did this intentionally, but you're separating their option versus your option like this.
1:03:10This is the bad option. Yeah. This is what you want.
1:03:13Yeah. It's almost like the whole, you know, when you're selling from stage, like they point to the doors, you know, kind It's of a thing. It's the same thing.
1:03:19So I'm doing I'm even if I'm on the phone, I'm still doing that because that affects my tone. If I just sit there like this, it's not gonna come out the same. So the cheapest price, the most important thing to you or getting XYZ result.
1:03:30So it's like, well, of course, went through result, but why though? Most salespeople like they'll copy my comparative frame, but they don't know how to go three steps further because they're not in our training. Hold on.
1:03:39Why though? Notice how my tone goes down. Hold on.
1:03:43Why though? Boom. And they'll tell me why or they might waffle again and I'm just gonna loop back around.
1:03:50And then what did I do to tie it off there? I don't remember.
1:03:52I don't remember either. But but what I It just came out. But what what, you know, the one thing I think that a lot of people can take away from this is that clearly a lot of times is just a buyer defense mechanism Mhmm.
1:04:04And they don't even know why they're saying it. Mhmm. So when you start pushing on it with questions, with the right tonality that don't make their put their guard up even more Mhmm.
1:04:12It just kinda falls apart. It just kinda falls apart. They're just kinda like, yeah, don't even know what the fuck I'm doing.
1:04:16We should just do it. It's like, you know, they're just like, oh, you know, I guess like I don't even know why I said that. It almost breaks them out of like, they're kind of in like almost like a hypnosis in a way.
1:04:26Why it takes salespeople to do that first with, if we're training a sales, like if we're talking to a salesperson or even a company, literally I train the first thing to do is like, how many of your prospects give you that same injection?
1:04:38They'll be like, oh, you know, a lot of it.
1:04:40Yeah. And what do you say to them? And a lot of times they're like, oh, let's just do it.
1:04:45Because they're like, this is stupid. Why am I being this objection? Literally, like you just said, it depends on what you're what you're selling, if you can how you can actually do that.
1:04:53But it's having that playful tone, getting their guard down, but then sometimes I can't stay playful all the time. It's gotta get more serious. Yeah.
1:05:00Because I'm I'm like concerned about the consequences if you don't do this. So the reason why that people don't understand why they are pushing off is because the brain was only built for us to survive.
1:05:12It was never built to thrive, to keep us safe. So anytime there's something new or there's something unknown to the brain, we look for external validation to wanna push it down the road.
1:05:23That's why we say we wanna talk with our spouse. So if it doesn't work out, the spouse won't blame us. That's why we say we need to talk with our financial adviser because if it doesn't work out, it wasn't our fault.
1:05:32So it's external validation. So our mind feels like it's safer to keep pushing down the road, which we all know pushing anything down the road is very unsafe. Yeah.
1:05:42And it's also actually mentally exhausting because most people live their lives with hundreds of open loops. You know? I always thought, you know, I try to train my brain to just
1:05:52close the loops as soon as possible because
1:05:55it's actually mental baggage It's so true. That weighs on you. Yeah.
1:05:59It's stressful. For sure. It's like being in a relationship and you're like, oh, I I shouldn't be in this relationship, but yet you keep staying in the relationships.
1:06:06You don't like, you know, hurt somebody else's feelings or you really like their parents or you like their, you know, their sister or something like their friends and like, you don't wanna hurt them to just stay. Yeah. It's like you gotta close the loop.
1:06:17Yeah. It's lot of times all the baggage that weighs on you throughout your life is usually in direct correlation to the lack of hard conversations that you haven't had yet. So true.
1:06:25With yourself. Yeah. With yourself and with other people.
1:06:28Yeah. Tony Robbins session. I love There we go.
1:06:30That's good, man. So we went on a we wanna we were talking about scaling. We went on a massive sales detour, but it was too fun.
1:06:34So just going back and then we'll wrap up. What does seventh level at a 100,000,000 or 200,000,000 or 300,000,000 look like to you?
1:06:44Like what has to change? What do you think if you think about what that looks like? You know, how does it look?
1:06:48As a company, you know, we're on pace for 50 this year or right around that range. We stay at our current numbers,
1:06:58know, I'm a really big believer and it is kind of goes back to Cardone. I've read one of his books. I can't remember that he talks about when his company was at 40,000,000, like he was there for a 30 or 40,000,000 a year.
1:07:08He was there for a while and they couldn't quite figure it out. And then it was their executive leadership team. He's like, you like, to go from 40 to a 100, it's all your executive leadership team and having leverage, like having the best department heads.
1:07:20And most people you you know, like, when you're when you start up a company, you kinda start throwing bodies into positions. Like, oh, this guy's average at sales, but he seems like he's really good at numbers. Let's make him head of operations.
1:07:31Never done in his life. Yeah. You know?
1:07:33So as you start bringing in more cash, if you have those same people running those things and they didn't grow into that, like they didn't gain knowledge to really scale that, which most of them don't. Some of them do.
1:07:43We'll grow the company. It's like you have to replace them with somebody who's already done that thing. Who's already took a company from 40 to 200,000,000 as a head of operations or whatever it is.
1:07:54So, you know, that's that's one thing we've been working on the last six months is taking different, you know, people in those leadership positions that maybe not their best position they could be in and either moving them to a different position where they're better suited for. Yep. And then bringing in the right type of person who's actually done that thing that we want to do in that department.
1:08:12So that has helped us this year for sure. And we'll continue to refine that and do that. We've got our AI that's rolling out right now.
1:08:19Mhmm. That's gonna be big for enterprise level type of clients.
1:08:23Yeah. It's gonna be fun. I think it's good.
1:08:24And then we we're rolling out our placement stuff right now. So a little bit of extra revenue coming in from that. So that's good.
1:08:29Right. So and and I agree. I mean, I always think talent We're training companies first.
1:08:34Is the best asset. Not really place placement companies just kind of on this side. Right.
1:08:37They don't charge for the placement for the rep. They're paying for the training. But it's it's something that employers have asked us to do, which I just didn't feel like we had the the foundation
1:08:47to be able to to fulfill it, if that makes sense. It's a lot. I I've heard.
1:08:51Yeah. It's if if it's one of those things where my own naivety and just kind of being a little delusional helped.
1:09:00Yeah. Because I just thought it would be kind of easy. And then I, you know, I was good at sales, so I sold a lot of people.
1:09:06Then I just constantly had to build the ship as I went. Yeah. And I would say, you know, we went through three major iterations in how we've run the entire recruiting department.
1:09:14Mhmm. And now it's a 20 person full cycle. Like, it runs like an actual I I didn't come from a recruiting background.
1:09:20You know, the SOP system. It's like an actual recruiting department. Yeah.
1:09:24And we're super proud of it, but holy shit. If I knew how hard that was gonna be when I first I just wouldn't even have started it. I would have tried to sell a course.
1:09:31You know what you don't know. Right? So Yeah.
1:09:33I mean, it took us six years before I felt like we were at a point where we had the foundation and the right people to fill it. I won't do something even if it makes us a lot more money, I will not do it
1:09:42if we can't fulfill it because the brand I want the brand reput I want the brand to be here thirty years from now, fifty years from now. Even when I'm not here, want it to still be here. I've just seen too many, like, companies, like, just go crazy selling, but they don't fulfill it all.
1:09:56And then, I mean, you they're a dime a dozen in this Yes. Of course. And so okay.
1:10:00So again, if you think of, let's say,
1:10:03crossing nine figures even beyond 9 figures, is that still mainly gonna be working with the individual salespeople? How much of it do you think is maybe landing more enterprise type of clients or mid
1:10:15clients? Yeah. More enterprise.
1:10:16Because the unit economics. Landed like a 900,000 replacement deal with the employer. Yeah.
1:10:20You know, you're not gonna have an individual pay $900 for that. Right. You know?
1:10:24And how do you get those people? Because everybody wants. The
1:10:28enterprise, mid market client, the big deal. Right? Everybody wants that, but it's
1:10:33not always as easy as, you know, sending them a cold email. We we've always, you know, like, I don't feel like until the last six months we've done a really good job at working from the bottom up because we get you know, we might get like 15 to 20 high ticket buyers a day, anywhere from $5 to $25 every single day of the week, seven days a week.
1:10:51Yep. All those individuals sell for companies. And I'm like, why do we not have a system in place here?
1:10:58Because we we have like 42,000 testimonies. We have a lot of testimonials.
1:11:01So why not when these people get into training, why don't they get a call by one of our b to b reps that only sells to companies and be like, hey. Welcome to the training. Blah blah blah blah blah.
1:11:11Who do you work for? Yeah. Who does your sales manager want the team to sell more and work at a referral bus?
1:11:17So we started doing that recently, that's worked out really, really well. I don't know why for five years we never did that. Well, yeah.
1:11:21Like, why why that's like It is one of those things that leads every day. Pretty off you know, it is like you have it right there because really if you look at the way I would think about scaling your business is that, yes, it probably is gonna be through landing those enterprise deals. How do you land them?
1:11:34Well, you just happen to have a front end marketing mechanism that literally creates champions. Yeah. They're already seeing the Corporate champions that Like this salesperson was literally nowhere to be found and now he's our number two guy out of 2,000 people.
1:11:47Like how the hell did that happen? Yeah. You know?
1:11:49So it's like you already have a person that's already showing the proof of that.
1:11:53A lot of companies do see your ads though, you'd be surprised. Well, know, and this is the thing I've learned. This is part of the reason I'm gonna also because I tried to make ads specifically, let's say for enterprises because I wanna sell bulk recruiting Yeah.
1:12:04Deals, etcetera. But what's tough is to make ads work, you have to be able to monetize the small business Mhmm.
1:12:11Because that's 90% of the traffic. For sure.
1:12:14But you know what's interesting is, I I I try to go right for enterprise, it could have worked, but then I thought about the ads I already run, which is they mainly are small businesses 8090%. But if you look at every single almost big 42, I mean, in our industry, in the coaching training industry, let's say 50 to a 100 mil is pretty much like as big as people There's like a couple of people.
1:12:35And there's not that many. Mean, there's of course like Tony Regan said, Like like that's what's on the 10.
1:12:41But the thing is is even through running the ads, whether that's a branding thing or a word-of-mouth thing. Mhmm. I've worked with probably 95% of almost all the companies who are on the Sure.
1:12:53Top echelon. Yeah. And so part of it when we go to home service is I'm still going to focus on monetizing and helping the small businesses.
1:13:00But I know by the nature of just being in that market, like it's it's almost like you will get people. I mean, I have booked, know, weirdly, we booked I think, not Spirit, I just think Spirit because they just, that's an airline that just closed down.
1:13:14Who is the Sprint? Is that a cell phone company? Yeah, Sprint.
1:13:17Yeah. Booked Sprint through LinkedIn ad. So you can, like, do it.
1:13:21Sure. But you have to have the kind of the you have to have a be able to monetize
1:13:26Like, so by so by lending, you know, that that owns the Rams Stadium, LA Rams Stadium. They're a new client of ours couple months ago, and their senior vice president just saw he just followed me on Instagram. Mhmm.
1:13:36That's how that league came in. Yeah. And a lot of a lot of my best stuff too has been from social media.
1:13:41Yeah. It's kinda it is interesting just because, you know, you you tend to think social media is something that's like, oh, it's for 25 to 34 year olds or whatever.
1:13:49People are people are on social media. Some people watch. We got executives that are on Instagram just like you are.
1:13:54Yeah. You know, if they're if they're it's just all how you target, you know. It's how you're it's targeting the right type of person.
1:14:00Our ads have shifted recently which is really really good for us. So our marketing spends on way way down and we're getting a higher qualified lead.
1:14:08Our AOB's increased. Right. I'm just it's it's like how did our AOB increase
1:14:13and our ad spend went way down and we get more leads? There there you go. Yeah.
1:14:17There's always a new level, I guess. Doing doing good business stuff. Yeah.
1:14:20If you enjoyed this podcast, you're also probably gonna like this podcast I also did recently that you can check out by clicking the screen right here.
The Hook
The bait, then the rug-pull.
Jeremy Miner has made close to three million dollars in commission over six years by treating every sales call like a psychology session. Here he sits down with Cole Gordon to break down exactly how -- live demos included.
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