Daniel Fazio: How to Actually Win in Online Business
Cold email pioneer Daniel Fazio breaks down why 52 client-getting offers collapse into five business models, and why picking the wrong marketing channel dooms an offer no matter how hard you work it.
Posted
6 days ago
Duration
Format
Interview
educational
Views
653
57 · 43
Big Idea
The argument in one line.
Every offer only converts on a marketing channel that matches its promise, and the strongest cold-traffic offers stack four levers: new money, low effort for the client, low commitment, and a real guarantee.
Who This Is For
Read if. Skip if.
READ IF YOU ARE…
You're running or starting a lead-gen, cold email, or agency business and need to know which channel your offer can actually convert on.
You have an offer that converts on one channel and dies on another, and want to know why instead of blaming the channel.
You're deciding between cold outreach, content, and paid ads and want a resource-based framework instead of a guess.
You sell a done-for-you service and want to raise prices by lowering how much effort the client has to put in.
SKIP IF…
You're looking for tactical ad-copy formulas or platform-specific growth hacks rather than offer strategy.
You already have a mature, well-converting offer and a proven channel — this covers fundamentals you've likely internalized.
TL;DR
The full version, fast.
There are only three ways to get clients: content, cold outreach, or paid ads, and an offer only works on the channel that matches how it makes money. A true cold-traffic offer stacks four levers: it creates new money instead of scalping money a buyer already has, it removes effort from the buyer (logistical intensity), it asks for low commitment, and it carries a real guarantee, which alone can roughly 10x conversion. Consulting and coaching offers are warm-traffic by nature and have to be marketed through content instead. Without case studies, beginners substitute a lower price and a stronger guarantee; case studies compound into pricing power over time. The single highest-success-rate starting offer is a cold-email lead-generation agency.
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01 · The ListKit backstory and why cold-email pricing is fake
New York catch-up leads into how the ListKit deal with Iman Gadzhi's circle came together, then a breakdown of why competitors' advertised '$47 for 10,000 emails' pricing hides roughly $900-$1,000/month in required domains, inboxes, and lead verification, versus ListKit's $597/month all-inclusive bundle.
05:00 – 09:23
02 · The only three ways to get clients
Every client-acquisition strategy reduces to content/organic, cold outreach, or ads. Each trades time for money differently and scales differently: cold outreach and ads scale linearly, content scales exponentially.
09:23 – 13:46
03 · Why some offers cannot work on any cold channel
Client Ascension (coaching/consulting) will never close on cold outreach or cold ads regardless of budget. Alex Hormozi runs zero cold-traffic ad offers; every ad routes viewers into content and email before any sale. A pure performance lead-gen offer, by contrast, is genuinely cold-traffic-ready.
13:46 – 20:39
04 · The dating-market analogy and the new-money pillar
A cold-traffic offer has to be as viscerally obvious as physical attraction. Vague offers like 'corporate training' fail because the ROI isn't instant. The first pillar, new money, means the offer must create an opportunity the buyer doesn't already have — reactivating an old CRM list, or pitching people who already run ads, both fail this test.
20:39 – 24:10
05 · Logistical intensity and the definition of a moat
Two identical roofing lead-gen offers diverge based on who calls and books the leads. The GLP-1 drug market shows people pay to offload effort, not to buy the underlying result. A moat is simply the ability to absorb logistical pain competitors refuse to take on.
24:10 – 27:55
06 · YouTube vs Instagram for building a business
Content platforms pre-filter buyer sophistication. A straightforward, logic-driven creator attracts straightforward clients on YouTube, while lifestyle marketing on Instagram attracts an audience primed to assume any offer is a scam.
27:55 – 32:53
07 · Lifestyle-marketing psychology and the $17 product test
The Lamborghini-post analogy for how lifestyle marketing sells an implied money-and-status fantasy rather than the offer itself. A real $17 self-liquidating funnel product generated 'is this a scam' support tickets almost exclusively from Facebook/Instagram buyers, never YouTube buyers, despite identical checkout and delivery.
32:53 – 35:32
08 · Why 52 offers reduce to only 5 business models
A specific offer-niche-price combination sold as a guaranteed formula is front-end marketing simplification. A $10,000-upfront retainer example only works because the seller already has case studies backing it.
35:32 – 41:54
09 · How to get clients without case studies
Fazio's first business, an Instagram growth agency, only got paying clients after three months of free work for five people to generate before/after proof. Lying about case studies (or hiding their absence) is worse than addressing it directly and offering a stronger guarantee. The four pillars are formally named: new money, logistical intensity, low commitment, risk reversal.
41:54 – 48:19
10 · Stipulations and why guarantees make offers sell 10x easier
A results guarantee needs contractual stipulations, like requiring the client to film a set number of ads, so it only pays out when the miss is actually the seller's fault. Adding any guarantee moves conversion by roughly an order of magnitude, and liberal return policies at Amazon or Publix show the abuse rate is worth pricing in.
48:19 – 55:45
11 · The five business models recap and B2B paid ad economics
Pricing has no formula beyond 'the most someone will actually pay.' B2B paid ads run a customer acquisition cost around $3,000 (+/- $1,500) almost regardless of the offer, which is why cold email beats ads for beginners who can't hold months of negative cash flow.
55:45 – 1:02:44
12 · Demand capture vs demand generation
A demand capture offer, like IT services, recruiting, or off-market real-estate deals, can only be sold to someone with an active present need. Niching cold email to buyers who already have money and urgency (like multifamily real estate investors) is a high-converting combination.
1:02:44 – 1:07:34
13 · AI landing pages, the Fathom knowledge system, and the real bottleneck test
Codex/Vercel or Claude Code collapsed what used to be a $5,000/month landing-page designer into roughly $100/month. Every sales call, via the Fathom API, feeds a living 133-page 'Master Lessons' document that seeds newsletter and YouTube topics. Business only has three real levers — leads, closing, results — and anything else, like auditing obscure cold-email blacklists, isn't worth the time.
1:07:34 – 1:12:54
14 · In-person events and the $400K/month studio agency
In-person events are financially risky, roughly $40,000 for a 50-person event with half the ticket sales landing in the final week. A studio-based content agency converts far better than a remote one because it removes the client's need to learn cameras and lighting — one client runs roughly $400K/month on that model alone.
1:12:54 – 1:17:48
15 · AI video, AEO, and AI voice tools
The only AI offers actually selling right now are AI video for ads and AI/answer-engine optimization (AEO), and AEO only works if people already search for that product category on AI tools. AI voice and 'setter' tools aren't reliable enough yet, so Fazio's team is custom-building one instead of buying off the shelf.
1:17:48 – 1:22:49
16 · Working with partners and monetizing a podcast audience
Fazio's Client Ascension co-founders were already proven, active members of his paid community before the partnership formed. For a podcast host with 200+ episodes and a small following, the monetization path is sponsorships or a self-created offer tied to the show's topic, not a random unrelated pitch.
1:22:49 – 1:24:49
17 · The best offer for a total beginner
For someone starting with no audience and no capital, a cold-email lead-gen agency (flat tech fee plus per-booked-call fee) remains the highest success-rate starting point. The typical growth path is cold email first, then piloting ads once you've learned to run them, which multiplies revenue per client.
Atomic Insights
Lines worth screenshotting.
There are only three ways to get clients: content or organic, cold outreach, and ads — every strategy that exists falls within those three.
Cold outreach and ads scale linearly with effort or spend, while content is the only channel that can scale exponentially once an audience compounds.
A cold-traffic offer needs four pillars maxed out: new money, low logistical intensity, low commitment, and a risk reversal — weaken one and the others have to work harder to compensate.
Logistical intensity is the real product: clients pay more to offload the pain of fulfillment, not for the fulfillment itself.
A moat is nothing more than the ability to absorb logistical intensity that competitors refuse to take on.
Adding a guarantee to an otherwise identical offer moves conversion by roughly an order of magnitude, about 10x, compared with no guarantee at all.
A cold traffic offer must promise new money a business doesn't already have — reactivating an existing CRM list is scalping, not generating, so it will never sell cold.
B2B paid ads carry a customer acquisition cost of roughly $3,000 plus or minus $1,500 regardless of the product, so any offer that can't absorb that cost simply can't run on ads yet.
A demand capture offer, like IT services or recruiting, can only be sold to someone already actively looking for it — you cannot manufacture the need.
Consulting, coaching, and info products are warm-traffic offers by nature; they have to be marketed through content because cold strangers won't buy trust-based products.
52 different client-getting offers collapse into just five business models — the difference between them is who you sell to, at what price, and through which channel.
The most reliable business model for a total beginner is a cold-email lead-gen agency charging a flat tech fee plus a per-booked-call fee, because it maxes out all four pillars of a cold traffic offer at once.
Case studies aren't optional armor against objections — without them you have to substitute a lower price and a stronger risk reversal until you earn the right to charge more.
Lifestyle marketing on Instagram reliably reads as a scam signal to its own audience; the platform's content style pre-filters buyer sophistication more than the offer itself does.
AI only creates leverage when it removes an actual bottleneck to revenue-driving work — automating a process that was never the constraint is just circling.
Takeaway
Match the offer to the channel, not the channel to your comfort
OFFER STRATEGY
Client acquisition reduces to a repeatable system: pick a channel by the time and money you actually have, then build the offer to hit as many of four measurable pillars as possible.
01The ListKit backstory and why cold-email pricing is fake
Cold email tools that advertise '$47 to send 10,000 emails' hide the real cost: you need roughly 20 domains and 40 inboxes to safely hit that volume, running closer to $900-$1,000 a month before buying or verifying a single lead.
A single domain and inbox sending 1,000 emails a day from day one will burn to spam almost immediately, so the advertised low price is only reachable at a volume that guarantees deliverability failure.
All-in-one platforms like ListKit bundle domains, inboxes, sending, lead sourcing, and verification into one fee specifically because assembling that stack piece by piece is what breaks beginners; their biggest buyer segment is people who already tried a DIY tool and couldn't configure it.
02The only three ways to get clients
Every client-acquisition strategy that exists is a variant of content/organic, cold outreach, or paid ads — there is no fourth channel.
Each channel trades time for money differently: cold outreach is time-heavy and cash-light, content is time-heavy with an outsized long-term payoff, and ads are cash-heavy and fast.
Cold outreach and ads scale linearly with effort or spend, while content is the only channel that can scale exponentially once an audience compounds.
03Why some offers cannot work on any cold channel
Whether an offer will convert on a channel has to be checked before picking that channel — a coaching or consulting offer will never close on cold outreach or cold ads, no matter the budget.
Even a business built almost entirely on content runs zero cold-traffic ad offers when it's trust-based; every ad is educational content that routes viewers into an email list and video platform before any sale happens.
A pure performance-based lead-gen offer, where you only get paid per call booked, is a genuine cold-traffic offer because the financial risk sits entirely on the seller, not the buyer.
04The dating-market analogy and the new-money pillar
A cold-traffic offer needs to be as viscerally obvious as physical attraction: the buyer should look at it and immediately understand 'this makes me money,' with no interpretation required.
A vague offer like 'corporate training' fails on cold traffic because it doesn't make the buyer's return on investment obvious in one sentence.
The new-money pillar means the offer must create an opportunity the buyer doesn't already have — reactivating an existing customer list is scalping their own money, not generating new money, so it structurally can't sell cold.
Targeting people who already run ads for an ad-management pitch is a common but backwards move: they're not a warmer lead, they're an already-scalped opportunity with no new money left to offer.
05Logistical intensity and the definition of a moat
Between two identical lead-gen offers, the one where the agency also calls and books the leads, not just generates them, out-converts the DIY version even at double or triple the price.
People pay to offload effort, not to buy the underlying result — the GLP-1 market shows 'being skinny' became purchasable and adoption jumped, even though diet and exercise always worked.
A moat, in this framing, is simply the ability to absorb logistical pain a competitor refuses to take on; harder fulfillment means smaller competitive supply and higher achievable prices.
06YouTube vs Instagram for building a business
Content platforms pre-filter buyer sophistication: a straightforward, logic-driven creator attracts straightforward clients on YouTube, while lifestyle marketing on Instagram attracts an audience primed to assume any offer is a scam.
There's close to a one-to-one correlation between lifestyle marketing and being perceived as a scam — audiences read the marketing style as a signal about legitimacy, independent of the actual offer.
Comment sections reveal platform bias more than audience bias: the same message reads as agreement in a long-form video and as reflexive hostility when the same clip runs as a short.
07Lifestyle-marketing psychology and the $17 product test
Lifestyle marketing sells an implied chain of car, money, and status; buyers who respond to that chain are buying the fantasy, not evaluating the actual offer.
The same low-ticket funnel product generated confused 'this is a scam' support tickets almost exclusively from Facebook/Instagram buyers, never from YouTube buyers, even though checkout and delivery were identical.
The lesson isn't platform snobbery, it's audience quality: the traffic source pre-selects who shows up in your funnel, which later shows up as support burden or refund rate.
08Why 52 offers reduce to only 5 business models
Any specific offer-niche-price combination marketed as a guaranteed formula is front-end simplification for a lead magnet — the real mechanics require understanding the underlying business model, not copying the exact numbers.
A high-upfront retainer offer only works because the seller already has case studies; the same offer with zero case studies has to drop price and add a risk reversal before it will sell at all.
09How to get clients without case studies
Getting the first case studies often means working for free for a handful of people purely to generate before/after proof that convinces strangers you're legitimate.
Lying about having case studies, or omitting that you don't have any, treats the prospect as unable to notice — the better move is addressing the gap directly and compensating with a stronger guarantee.
Formally, the four pillars are new money, logistical intensity, low commitment, and risk reversal; weakening any one pillar means the other three have to work harder to compensate.
10Stipulations and why guarantees make offers sell 10x easier
A results guarantee needs contractual stipulations, like requiring the client to film a set number of ads or spend a minimum ad budget, so it only pays out when the failure to hit the number is actually the seller's fault.
Adding a guarantee to an otherwise identical offer moves conversion by roughly an order of magnitude, about 10x, compared with no guarantee at all.
Liberal return policies work because they trade a small percentage of abusive refund requests for a large increase in overall willingness to buy; the abuse rate is priced in, not a reason to withhold guarantees.
11The five business models recap and B2B paid ad economics
How much to charge has no formula beyond 'the most someone will actually pay' — pricing is a negotiation outcome, not a fixed number tied to a service category.
B2B paid ads carry a customer acquisition cost around $3,000, plus or minus $1,500, almost regardless of the offer, so a product's unit economics have to survive that cost before ads are viable.
A beginner should default to cold email over paid ads because it doesn't require holding several months of negative cash flow while a $3,000-plus CAC gets absorbed.
12Demand capture vs demand generation
A demand capture offer, like IT services, recruiting, or off-market real estate deals, can only be sold to someone who already has an active, present need; you cannot manufacture urgency where none exists.
Niching a cold-email offer to buyers who already have money and an active need, like off-market deals for real estate investors, is a high-converting pairing of a cheap channel with a demand-capture audience.
For a content offer with almost zero logistical intensity for the client, the only levers left to turn up are low commitment and a strong risk reversal, since new money and ease are already maxed.
13AI landing pages, the Fathom knowledge system, and the real bottleneck test
AI code tools collapsed what used to be a roughly $5,000-a-month landing-page designer into about a $100-a-month subscription, making split-testing and iteration cheap enough to automate end to end.
Feeding every sales-call transcript into a living, weekly-updated knowledge document creates a compounding source for newsletter and video topics, instead of sitting down to invent new material from scratch.
Business only has three real levers at any moment: generating more leads, closing those leads, and getting clients results. Anything that doesn't move one of those three isn't worth automating or doing.
14In-person events and the $400K/month studio agency
In-person events are financially risky, roughly $40,000 for a 50-person event with about half the ticket sales landing in the final week, so live events function as warm-traffic plays, not a reliable cold-acquisition channel.
A studio-based service agency converts far better than a remote one because it removes the client's need to learn cameras and lighting; it turns logistical intensity into a physical building the client simply shows up to.
15AI video, AEO, and AI voice tools
Right now the only AI offers actually selling are AI video production for ads and AI/answer-engine optimization; most of what's marketed as an 'AI opportunity' isn't generating real revenue yet.
AI-search optimization only works as an offer if people already search for that product category on AI tools in the first place — paying to optimize for AI search doesn't create demand that wasn't already there.
AI voice and 'setter' tools aren't reliable enough yet to fully replace a human, so building one custom is currently the only workable path if you need that capability now.
16Working with partners and monetizing a podcast audience
Strong business partnerships tend to come from people who were already proven and active inside your existing community, not from pairing up out of fear of doing the work alone.
For a small creator with an existing show and modest following, the monetization path is sponsorships or a self-created offer that stays contextually tied to the show's topic, not an unrelated pitch to the audience.
Giving equity to a strategic partner who already has traffic and credibility removes a large share of the proof-and-skepticism burden a brand-new offer would otherwise carry.
17The best offer for a total beginner
For someone starting with no audience and no capital, a cold-email lead-gen agency charging a flat tech fee plus a per-booked-call fee remains the highest success-rate starting point, because it maxes out all four cold-traffic pillars at once.
The typical growth path is cold email first, then piloting ads once you've learned to run them for a client, since ads can multiply the number of booked calls tenfold or more on the same client relationship.
Glossary
Terms worth knowing.
Cold traffic offer
An offer with a guarantee, low commitment, and an instantly-obvious return that a complete stranger can be sold on first contact, with no prior relationship needed.
Warm traffic offer
An offer, like consulting or coaching, that only converts once the buyer already knows, likes, and trusts the seller through prior content or relationship.
Logistical intensity
The amount of hands-on effort a buyer must personally do to get a result. The less the buyer has to do, the more a service can charge.
New money
The pillar requiring an offer to create an opportunity the buyer doesn't already have, rather than re-monetizing something they already own, like their existing customer list.
Risk reversal
A guarantee or refund structure that shifts financial risk from the buyer to the seller, which dramatically increases how easily an offer sells.
Demand capture offer
A product or service, such as IT services or recruiting, that can only be sold to someone who already has an active, present need for it. Demand can't be manufactured for it.
CAC (customer acquisition cost)
What it costs, in ad spend, to turn a stranger into a paying customer. For B2B paid ads it typically runs around $3,000, plus or minus $1,500.
ListKit
An all-in-one cold email platform bundling domains, inboxes, sending, lead sourcing, and verification. Daniel Fazio is a minority shareholder and its public face.
Client Ascension
Daniel Fazio's AI-assisted coaching and consulting company, co-founded with community members and marketed entirely as a warm-traffic offer through content.
AEO (AI engine optimization)
The practice of optimizing content so AI search and chat tools surface it, positioned in the market as the AI-era successor to SEO.
Resources
Things they pointed at.
01:30productListKit
01:40toolInstantly
10:20productClient Ascension
39:10toolHubSpot
1:03:00toolCodex
1:03:00toolVercel
1:03:20toolManus
1:03:20toolClaude Code
1:04:15toolFathom
1:16:30toolBB9
1:19:40toolFramer
Quotables
Lines you could clip.
03:51
“The number one purchaser of ListKit right now is somebody who bought Instantly and couldn't figure it out. That's literally what it is.”
self-deprecating market-pain stat with an instant punchline→ TikTok hook↗ Tweet quote
04:44
“Any offer that works on cold email will 100% of the time work on ads, but not every offer that will work on ads will work on cold email.”
“Why is everyone fat? Because you can't purchase being skinny.”
shock-analogy hook that reframes his whole logistical-intensity argument in one line→ TikTok hook↗ Tweet quote
24:02
“It's literally what the definition of what a moat is: your ability to fulfill logistical intensity that others cannot.”
redefines a classic business term memorably→ IG reel cold open↗ Tweet quote
47:01
“The answer of how much you should charge is the most amount you can possibly get someone to give you. That's what it is.”
punchy, contrarian pricing take that cuts through 'what should I charge' anxiety→ newsletter pull-quote↗ Tweet quote
54:21
“Most people running a business make no money. It's really eye-opening.”
blunt reality check, relatable to any founder evaluating client quality→ TikTok hook↗ Tweet quote
1:05:21
“There's only three things you could be concerned with at any given time: generating more leads, closing those leads, and getting them results.”
operator-grade filter, directly actionable for anyone drowning in busywork→ newsletter pull-quote↗ Tweet quote
Topic Map
Where the conversation goes.
00:00 – 05:00denseListKit backstory and cold-email pricing deception
05:00 – 09:23denseThe three channels for getting clients
09:23 – 20:39denseWhy offers can't work on every channel
20:39 – 24:10denseLogistical intensity and moats
24:10 – 32:53steadyYouTube vs Instagram audience quality
32:53 – 41:54dense52 offers, 5 business models, case studies
41:54 – 48:19denseStipulations and guarantees
48:19 – 55:45steadyB2B paid ad economics
55:45 – 1:02:44denseDemand capture vs demand generation
1:02:44 – 1:07:34denseAI leverage, bottlenecks, and Fazio's knowledge system
1:07:34 – 1:12:54steadyIn-person events and the studio agency model
1:12:54 – 1:17:48steadyAI video, AEO, AI voice tools
1:17:48 – 1:22:49steadyPartnerships and podcast monetization
1:22:49 – 1:24:49denseBest offer for a beginner
The Script
Word for word.
Read-along
Don't just watch it. Burn it in.
See every word as it's spoken — crank it to 2× and still catch all of it. The same dual-channel trick behind Amazon's Kindle + Audible.
17px
metaphoranalogystory
Three, two, one, Danny Fazio. Congratulations, brother. What's up, bro?
What brought you to New York? Just screwing around. I mean, my brother has a baby shower in Long Island, so I was like, let me just go to New York City for a week before and just screw around.
And there's a lot of people here, dude. I got like a dinner plan with someone new every night. It's like, damn, I didn't realize how many people are actually here.
It's pretty insane. Would you want to live in New York? What do you think about?
I would. I would not. in the winter though or not when it's cold i don't i don't like cold weather i said this before but i was i was actually born in new york but i just i'm a florida boy i grew up in florida hell yeah i mean dude there's like this the florida new york connection pipeline is strong yeah yeah that's a it's a strong pipeline but so you sold to iman no we didn't sell no i i'm sorry you sold a steak yeah for for list kit yeah um how'd that kind of come to be what's it whatever you kind of want to share with, with that, all that stuff.
Yeah. Well, I don't own the most of the list kit. I'm a, I'm, I'm kind of like more of a minority shareholder in it.
Um, I kind of just like have a face to it because of a personal brand and it's, it's a really good product. Um, but Andre, who is the CEO of let's get, and also a partner of mine and client Ascension, he knew, he knows some guy, um, Ben Harris, who works with Russell Brunson. And then Iman is having this thing with Russell Brunson.
Like they're doing some event together and they need a tool. for their students to get clients they're like what tool can do that so it's it ended up being list kit because i mean if you look at something like if you have a cold email tool like and i mean there's a million of them and what always happens is they're going to say something like It's $47 to send 10 ,000 emails.
And it's like, well, that's not actually true because what that is, is it's $47 to send, to have 10 ,000 credits on a sending platform where the incremental cost to send an additional email is effectively zero. So it's like, it's just, it's just like fake. So, so, so then when you sign up for them, it'll be like, they don't tell you this.
and no one knows this unless you're a literal like GTM engineer, is that you need a bunch of domains to send cold emails and a bunch of inboxes under that. So it's like, if you want to send a thousand emails a day, you'll need 20 inboxes, 20 domains, and then two inboxes under each of those domains. And a domain is $12.
And then an inbox is $7 .20 a month. Adds up quick. Yeah.
And then you have to... go buy the leads from another platform as well. And then you have to verify the leads.
And it's like, this ends up being like $900 or like a thousand dollars. And you thought it was like a $47 subscription. It's really just, it's just, it's effectively false advertising.
It's literally just fake because if you were to connect one domain, one inbox, you know, you could send a thousand emails a day with it. It's day one. It's going to burn.
Every single email is going to go to spam or it's just not going to be delivered in the first place. So it's wrong. It's just, it's very disingenuous way of stating the price.
So list kit is it's, it's 597 a month and it includes all the domains, the inboxes, the sending tool, the leads, any other kind of like there's a, there's like a master inbox to see all the, all the stuff, the verification is included. It's really just like a dumbified version. of it's just easy you don't have to you have to be an engineer and screw with dns records and it's it's so it just makes it easier yeah i've spent a lot of time on cold email that could be a hassle especially when you're first getting started you have no idea what you're doing getting on instantly and trying to buy all those domains well dude the number the number one purchaser of list kit right now is somebody who bought instantly and couldn't figure it out that's literally what it is so there's literally that's hilarious so they just buy this case makes sense yeah perfectly makes sense dude um i mean cold email is such a great such a great tool like paid ads has a certain sophistication that you need to have in order to run it yeah but cold email is like you could just think of think of an offer steal one of these and uh you're kind of good to go and and yeah as long as you have good quality leads you will have it's just like a numbers game like it just makes sense what's contextual based on their situation so like for instance um like we run cold emails because we have a tremendous amount of
descending power. We just happen to have it. But secondarily, it doesn't work for every offer.
Well, I'll put it like this. Any offer that works on cold email will 100 % of the time work on ads, but not every offer that will work on ads or work on cold email. Any offer that works on content may not work on ads, may not work on cold email.
It's about understanding the medium that you're using. So there's only three ways to get clients in existence. You have content or organic.
So referrals would fall under that because it's organic.
Cold outreach, which would include cold email, just cold DMs, anything like that, and then ads. There's nothing else that exists. It's only those three.
Any kind of strategy that anyone would ever conceive of, it's going to fall within those three. And then each of them... they have a different cost to them.
You always got to expend time or money in some capacity. So cold outreach is low in money and kind of like moderate or high in time. And then content is high in time, low in money.
And then ads is low in time, high in money. And then they each scale differently. So like cold outreach will only scale linearly and then content will scale exponentially and ads will only scale linearly.
So it's like, You just put that all on a table and you decide, well, what resources do I have access to? Do I have a ton of time or do I have a ton of money or what combination of those two do I have at this moment?
And that's how you pick. And now what people kind of screw up is they think you go to the second phase of it, which is, well, will this offer even work on that channel at all? So it's like, for instance, you could take something like Client Ascension, for instance, which is our AI -assisted agency.
It's like a coaching, consulting thing. That will never work on cold outreach. It would literally never do that at all.
And even with the ads, because it's a consulting or info offer, it doesn't, you can't, you don't gotta just sell that to cold traffic. You would need to, what you would need to do is what a lot of people do, where it's just like wildly improbable income claims about like the results, passive income, and you're gonna make up a jillion dollars of doing fuck all.
And it's like, that's, then it would work on purely ads. But it's like, for that product, for me, for instance, I'll run like educational funnels, like a free training funnel, lead magnets, case study funnels.
And then what happens is they get into my funnel and then I push content to them. So I'm not actually converting cold traffic on that offer. I'm just taking cold traffic and turning them into warm traffic because client ascension slash AI is not a cold traffic offer.
It just isn't. Then you can take something like, I know you have the thing of the 52 offers right there, but then you could take something where it's like, If there's a performance -based lead generation offer where you like do cold email for companies and you're like, and the offer is effectively just, hey, pay for the tech of the domains and the inbox and all that.
And then pay me $300 per call I book. That is a cold traffic offer that will convert directly on ads. It will convert directly on cold outreach.
And there's all sorts of offers where it's like, there's just so many things. Where people, they have something to sell and they think it'll just like sell doing anything. I just pick any marketing channel.
It doesn't work like that. A lot of the things will have a literal 0 % probability of working. But then you go back to that table of like, what resources do you have?
So you might, somebody might've picked an offer and then only has access to time and not money or like not a lot of time and not a lot of, or they need it to work very quickly. They'll be like, oh, well, I'll use cold outreach. That's not a cold traffic offer, so it won't work on cold outreach.
And then they'll do something like they'll go send DMs or hyper -personalized outreach. They could theoretically use something on the list, and it doesn't work. And they're like, oh, cold email is a scam.
And so you understand the offer cannot work on cold traffic. It literally can't do that. But then you go to the other spectrum, and it's like you go to this conversation, and people would otherwise think, well, it's not real business if I don't.
If it's not cold traffic, if you can't convert cold traffic, which is, there's something to say about that, but - What are you optimizing for? Yeah, like why is content not a legitimate business then? You get what I'm saying?
Totally. So it's very interesting. I also feel like broadly, if you have like any kind of consulting or info or do -it -yourself offer, broadly, normally, it has to be done through content or organic most of the time.
And then you look at something like, You look at Alex Ramosi, for instance. Alex Ramosi sells zero cold traffic offers.
Zero. I can explain the different pillars of what makes a cold traffic offer, but Alex Ramosi's entire thing is make a tremendous amount of content and all the ads he does run, the top of funnels, all educational stuff in exactly the same fashion that I just said that I do it. email list, routes them to email lists, routes them to the YouTube, and he gets them watching content.
And then they buy a workshop. Do you think cold traffic is going to buy a workshop from Alex Ramosi? No, of course not.
The only people who are buying workshops from him are people who know, like, and trust him. And how did he get them to that point? It's through making content.
He just simply, so like the argument then is, well, you don't necessarily need to sell a cold traffic offer. However, You do need to market the business in the fashion that makes contextual sense for it.
So it's like you can run a consulting business or you could sell a warm traffic offer and not try to like do a performance thing where it's like your stuff is based on performance. And a lot of people are scared to give like guarantees and whatnot like that. And we can talk about that.
But then they'll also say at the same time, well, I don't want to make content. Which, okay, well, then you're fucked. What are we doing?
Yeah, you're fucked then. Well, it's like, well, they make fucking zero dollars. You know what I mean?
You can't, you literally can't. It's, imagine all the possible things you could sell. Yeah.
And all the possible different strategies that you could market or do regeneration with. People think you could just like pick these out of a fucking hat and just like, oh, it's a very finite quantity of things that work at any given time. In like any industry.
So, I mean, you could theoretically sell whatever, but like you're really not gonna make much. So you can always see like what is working right now in specific markets. So if you were to look at like the info market right now, it's like, what are one of the top performing info offers right now?
One is buy a business. You ever see those? Oh yeah, Cody Sanchez.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there's a million of those people and like a lot of them make multiple millions of dollars a month, which is... Very interesting.
Yeah. And then you look at other stuff like, okay, well, what else? A lot of the real estate stuff, the real estate info offers.
Not as much anymore. Really? Yeah.
I don't see that as much anymore. But then like for any kind of biz op, it's AI. Yeah.
AI implementation, all that stuff. Any kind of thing like that. It's always an agency.
It's always some kind of digitally rendered service that is the biz op. Because, I mean, it's just a reliable business model to even. do it all you know what i mean but people come up people come up with like fuck all shit that literally doesn't make any sense like like like like trading like trading is the biggest fucking scam i mean like yeah there are traders but like there are also people who are seven feet tall and it's like it's just random it's it's random chance and it's like yeah i'm sure you have someone like i'm sure you have a sense of like how a market moves a little bit but it's like it's it's not a reliable predictable way to i mean just like s &p 500 max yeah you know what i'm saying it's just it's it's retarded it's literally 1000 dude i think that's such an important distinction between understanding like am i running a cold uh cold friendly offer or a warm friendly offer yeah and just that pure understanding of like there are certain things that are only going to work for warm yeah and knowing what that kind of is and knowing you know what that is and isn't um
Just such an important distinction to understand where to fall on the spectrum of things. I think so many people have this issue of shiny object syndrome or trying a million different things and not sticking with one thing long enough to actually have success with it. But I think so often they fail because they don't connect the right dots.
They're trying to do cold with a warm offer and they don't have the correct... kind of foundational pieces within their offer or within their funnel in general to actually make things work. Yeah.
It's very, it's very primitive in nature when you, when you really think about it. And I like to, I like to equate this a lot with dating markets. It's very easy to understand for people.
So like, what's the, what's the number, what's the number one determiner of, of. how many people you can hook up with or or date or like your sexual market value what would that be is it height or money it's it's it's just how attractive you are generally it's just it's just how attractive are you you know that could be that could be assessed in all subjective or objective ways but it's like that's that's just that's just that's what it is so it's it's ultimately just attraction and like you are attractive enough for me to want to reproduce with you that ultimately is what it is at the end of the day so then you look at like different kinds of offers and it's like you're ultimately selling some kind of end goal.
So what I mean by that is you could, what is the purpose of a business? It's to make money. It's to make money and anything in connection or downstream or upstream of making money is what people want to purchase for their business.
So it's like, if you're running some kind of agency or any form of digitally rendered service in any capacity, Literally ever at all. The only thing that people are concerned with is if I invest this, will I make money?
We're talking about B2B stuff, B2C stuff. You sell B2C stuff and ultimately it's going to be, can I have more sex? Can I be healthier?
Or can I make more money? You know what I mean? So then like that overlap of the money one is just like what B2B is.
You get what I'm saying? So you get down to this and it's like, well, ultimately the offer you're selling, what is the promise of the offer? Like what are you like really selling?
So like, For instance, you could take some kind of like, you ever see stupid shit? Anyone watching this who's run any kind of like marketing business or lead generation business of any kind has probably worked with some client who sells some like broad, incoherent nonsense, like corporate training.
Like what the fuck does that mean? What is your corporate? It's just something dumb or like IT management.
It's like, yeah, I mean, I understand that that's a market there, but it's not a cold traffic offer. What is a cold traffic offer? A cold traffic offer is where it's like you look at somebody, you look at the offer, it's like you are attractive, I want to reproduce with you.
It needs to be that viscerally straightforward, which is pretty much just, I will make you more money. And it's if you just... Stop trying to scoot around that and you just like embrace into that.
And like the purpose of this offer is to make people more money. And if I stop fucking around and saying anything that isn't that, it just magically starts working better. So like, for instance, one of the offers that I spoke about earlier, which is like the literal best offer of all time and has been for years at this point, it'll never stop working, is performance -based lead generation.
And it's like, it doesn't matter how you generate the leads. It can be through cold email. It could be through cold DMs.
You could be running ads for people. It could be your own referrals of your own network. It could be a newsletter.
It literally doesn't matter the capacity of how the leads are generated. It's just you're generating a lead for somebody's offer so that they get calls booked with qualified prospects so that they can sell them their shit so that They can make more money so that the owner of the business can make more money so that the owner of the business can either get anything on the Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
Ultimately, that's what it is. Maybe just like stop fucking around and thinking about anything that isn't that. Like your life just tends to be significantly easier.
So it's like, and then you can go into like the pillars of cold traffic, which is new money. So it's like, is this a new opportunity that makes new money? compared to is this an optimization of a system they already have or is this trying to scalp money from something they already have so like if i go to you and i'm like i'll generate you a hundred calls booked this month you're like okay it's it's and i guarantee and i guarantee that like and if you don't get like you're gonna pay you're either gonna pay as the calls are booked or I'm going to give you a refund if you don't get the calls booked.
And it's like, oh, okay. Well, like, yeah, that's very clear to understand, right? And then you look at other stuff.
There's another offer. This is so funny. There's some dude who is selling this.
I don't know who it was, but I encountered like four or five people who had bought this. It was like an AI CRM reactivation offer. And it's like, I heard that immediately.
It's not a cold traffic offer. There's a fucking 0 % probability. anyone's ever going to sell this to cold traffic why because it's your leads it's scalping money off of something they already have and this was interesting i was on um we do some live challenges sometimes and i had like 500 people in this live challenge i was like and i was i was trying to kind of go into this explaining culture versus warm traffic officers and i was using this as an example and i was like who in here like runs a business right now and maybe you have a crm with like 10 ,000 plus people in it.
Like you've been in business for a long time. And maybe like 20 people were like, Oh yeah, me, me, me. I was like, if I told you I would go into your CRM and send some emails to people, and then you're going to pay me a rev share for the amount that these people convert on.
Would you take that deal? Every single one of them was like, no. And I'm like, yeah, but mathematically the offer should make sense.
Cause it's like, well, I'm guaranteeing you, I'm going to make this amount of money. What's It doesn't matter.
They already have it. It needs to be new money. It's a new opportunity that they're not already doing.
So then it's another mistake of, you ever see an ad agency and they're like, how do I scrape people who already run ads? And it's like, that's not what you want. You don't want to do that.
You want to get people who don't run ads. Yep. Because now it's a new opportunity.
Why would you go to someone who already runs ads? It doesn't make any sense. Not because you just lost all the new money.
It's not new anymore. Now it's a scalped offer and it's just going to convert way less. It's very counterintuitive to think of.
Like you would think, oh, there's a signal that they would. No, it doesn't work like that. Next one is done for you.
So on a sliding scale of any digitally rendered service and have a sliding scale of done for you, down to coaching, down to software slash info. The more you say something is done for you where they do legitimately nothing, the more. appealing it would be another way of thinking about this it is actually a better way of explaining it is a concept called logistical intensity yeah i love this so see there's uh two lead generation agencies that sell to roofers right you got one guy who generates leads for so they use meta ads whatever they generate them weeds weed forms whatever but when the lead is generated the guy who owns the roofing company He either himself or his team has to call the leads to set the quotes and set the appointments and do that.
Make sure they're not a bunch of retarded leads, which is very common in lead generation. You have to sift through them. So that's offloading the logistical intensity of that piece of the lead gen system to the client.
What does that mean? It means that the done -for -you component is being degraded. You're offloading logistical intensity to them.
Second one, same exact business model, literal same exact delivery, except the agency, you as a service provider, are calling the leads for them and just managing the quotes and doing the booking and doing all of that. That person will get 99 % of the business compared to the other guy, even if they are charging double or triple the amount of money.
It's because what people are ultimately buying, like clients are... effectively just purchasing and offloading of logistical intensity. So it's like, why is everyone fat?
Because you can't purchase being skinny. You kind of can with GLPs now, but it's like, but this proves my point. It's like, what are you seeing?
There are more people skinny, being skinny now because you can purchase being skinny. You know what I'm saying? So, well, you could do it before.
It just took logistical intensity of going to the gym and dieting and you had to do that. So therefore, there were a lower quantity of people who were fit.
Now that you can purchase it, what you're seeing is exactly what I'm demonstrating here. Exactly. And even if you look at it from the business standpoint as well, those businesses are crushing it for that same reason.
Yeah, they are. But now, what is the other factor here? It's a pain in the ass to build the systems yourself to deliver the logistical intensity.
So what does that mean? It means that the supply is lower. And with the supply is lower, you can charge more.
Less competition. Yeah, exactly. So it's like the more, the more you can figure out how to take the logistical intensity and off, and offload it from people and unload it to yourself, then you will get, you will make more money.
So ultimately, like if we go back to what we were speaking about earlier, and I was explaining how like with cold email, for instance, you get a bunch of domains, a bunch of inboxes, you got to do all this. Like what, that's logistical intensity. You have to take a giant pain in the ass and like, The way that these people, like these platforms try to sell you is like literally deception.
It's like, it's literally like they are in fact deceiving you because it doesn't work in the way that it's advertised because the literal, like literally is false advertising.
ListKit just takes the logistical intensity of that and just offloads it from the customer. Totally. Absolutely.
It's actually very interesting when you look at any kind of product like Uber. It's so simple of just, I don't have to walk into the street and find a taxi. It's that simple of offloading of logistical intensity.
That's just, you make so much money just doing that. It's a giant pain in the ass, but that's what a moat is. It's literally what the definition of what a moat is, is your ability to fulfill.
logistical intensity that others cannot that's that's literally what the definition is i love that framing because you think about like so many people who are interested in like your concept for example are younger people like what do younger people have they have fucking time yeah they have time and energy and that is a great great way to like use logistical intensity like just take on that burden for yourself from these other people who don't want to deal with that shit yeah it's a great it's a great framing um So most of the stuff that, like, if we're looking here in these 52 offers you have, the majority of them, if not all of them, are B2B stuff.
What's your take on B2C higher ticket stuff? Do you have... Well, anything B2C higher ticket is ultimately going to have to be around ensuring they can have more sex, their relationships, which that's the visceral need, or them making more money, or them being healthier.
You're not going to sell anything that isn't ultimately... Do you still like one of those offers? Let's take something like health coaching, for example.
Do you like a health coaching offer? Yeah, no, it's a great business. Yeah, you think so?
Yeah, I would actually like to be in that market. I wish I could sell GLPs. It's clearly there.
The demand is clearly there. Even fitness coaching as a concept. We were kind of talking about this earlier.
Instagram.
does not like okay, so My stuff for instance sells very well on YouTube in my email list and perhaps sometimes Twitter There's a 0 % of the time it works well on Instagram It just it just it just doesn't cracks me up because so many people put all their time and effort Yeah, it's literally it's not gonna work for you And then I was actually I was literally on a call with the guy earlier today who runs a content agency But it's a written content.
It's like X linkedin he was like dude i've been trying to make instagram work for me but it won't work it doesn't work for me either i'm like because he's kind of like i'm instagram and he was showing me a dude who's a competitor of his who also who does very well on instagram and i'm like bro look at his profile it's lifestyle marketing like this is literally lifestyle what i bet if you took a distribution of his clients his clients would also be lifestyle marketing type people.
But his clients, I was talking to, are more like sophisticated people. I'm talking like Eddie Maloof and like, you know what I mean? Like just more sophisticated people.
It's not like Instagram retard trading bro shit. I'm like, that's who he's selling to and that's who he's attracting on there. And then I'm like, well, dude, look at me.
Like I don't do lifestyle marketing. Like I do exactly zero lifestyle marketing. Therefore, I don't do well on Instagram.
I do do well being like very straightforward and logical because that's just how I am. And I put that on YouTube and then I attract other people that are also like that. And then all of the clients I have also end up being like that.
You know what I'm saying? Absolutely understand what you're saying. So it's always interesting too because I'll get people like pitching me Instagram stuff all the time.
It's like, dude, you don't understand. It doesn't work for me. It works for other people, but I'll guarantee you these results.
And I'm like, I understand that. That's exactly what you should be doing. But I just know with foresight that it won't work and you will waste your time.
Like it just straight up won't. YouTube works for me. Any kind of written content works for me.
any kind of medium where somebody like me is consuming information is i never consume anything business related on instagram yeah ever at all it's it's it's on youtube that's that's the only place i'm gonna go 100 and i i think there's maybe almost a one -to -one correlation in the sense of perceived scam and lifestyle marketing like in the sense of if you lifestyle market people assume that whatever you're doing is a scam business and i think like for you dan co like people like that who are long form no lifestyle marketing at all there's very little i mean i'm sure you get a million people who who will say scam but like on a broad consensus basis i i don't think it just gets perceived that way at all yeah I think that's a huge benefit of kind of doing it the opposite way, leaning into the YouTube, the in -depth stuff.
Yeah. I mean, I feel embarrassed if I were to post a picture of something. Look at my watch.
You're a fucking loser. What are you doing? Or just stupid shit.
Like, I don't know. It's like an uncomfortable way of marketing to me. I totally agree.
It's cringy to me. I was talking to Riley Lamont. You know Riley?
Yeah. And he made a great perspective. He was like, I think.
most people are just still stuck in someone else's funnel in terms of their desires. Yeah. And I think that's just a great way to think about things.
It is. It's such a good perspective. Think about what that's appealing to, like the lifestyle marketing.
I mean, ultimately, the connection there is, okay, well, if this guy is posting a Lamborghini, I'm imagining that he gets, it's like the money angle, but then it's like, well, I imagine he gets a lot of hoes too. Yep. So therefore I need to buy this guy's thing so I can get a bunch of money so I can also pull.
That's literally what the connection is ultimately. And it's like, it's almost like if that's how you're sold to and if that's how, like it's almost like reveals like a depravity within your mind or like sexual depravity in your mind because you literally have like no control over like. The visceral urge.
100%. It's very interesting. It's almost like a low IQ.
It's a good take. It's a good take. Fucking retarded.
If you follow, you're literally just dumb. It's so dumb that you can't even observe that that is occurring to you. And ultimately, what are you trying to get here?
But as opposed to somebody who consumes logical -based content, unless this is clipped, there are exactly zero people. who would ever hear me say that. If this podcast were never clipped, only people who agree with me would have heard that statement.
But if it gets clipped, the comments inside of the short form would also be those depraved retards. You get what I'm saying? Because only the depraved retards would consume the information via that medium, which is very interesting.
So if you were to look at the distribution of comments or on something like YouTube in the long form video, it's like, wow. guy's right. Overwhelmingly positive.
Yeah. If it's on real, it's going to be a fucking bunch of retards. It's exactly what's going to happen.
It's very interesting. Nothing exposes you to the, um, like you, you kind of interact with the real world and you don't really perceive people as being that dumb. And then, then you get on social media, dude, and you, you post, you post a few rules and you, you see the, uh, the extent of which, um, yeah, dude, well, I mean, I just, I just, I just, I'll just give you, for instance, um, this is actually so interesting.
Um, So I have a low ticket product. I'm testing right now It's like a $17 low ticket product and like the strategy is like spend a bunch of money on ads Self -liquidated you have a bunch of leads in a bunch of buyer leads that you can eventually Upsell to your other stuff and put them in the funnel and have them consume your shit and turn them into warm traffic, right?
Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so in theory incredible funnel.
Yes, um all of the time I get people and we're like, how do I access the product that they just bought it? No, like how do I access? This is a scam and it's like when you purchased, you were sent to a thank you page that has a button to access the product.
And then not only that, you were sent your login information via email and via text. And now someone might make the argument, well, like, is it not sending correctly? Oh, no, it is.
Because I'll go in to HubSpot and see that they opened the access email. And they're so fucking stupid. It's crazy.
They literally came, and then I, like, is this a scam? Like, I can't access the product. And then you look at the, like, where do they come from?
They came from Facebook or Instagram. But if I run YouTube ads, that does not happen. Yep.
That's so weird. It's just, like, so interesting of a concept to me. It's, like, what?
It's just odd. It's, like, the medium matters. It's strange.
Yeah, I do. I mean, I know some people like I have some friends from high school and just even like in the business world and like the people whose perception is like a growth mindset and a like just a growth mindset, even if it's business related or not. They all are YouTube people like in terms of consuming content over social media.
Yeah. um it's just it's a very interesting correlation um so i got 52 of your offers here or 52 real offers from members within in your community yeah um i wanted to run through a few of your favorites here uh so i brought brought you all 52 so you didn't have to um you didn't have to remember all of them offhand yeah well you know this is interesting because it i mean yeah it's 52 but they all fall within uh only five business models so it's really just like spins on like this person sells it to this person at this price instead and it's like well then what determines what price you can sell something for instance so this is so i have this as a lead magnet and um what happens is if you say something like download this swipe file where i'm gonna give you the exact offers the exact niches to sell them to the exact pricing and the exact way that they're getting clients everyone thinks until they are otherwise educated Because they would literally need to watch a podcast like this from me to understand how this all actually works.
But you can't make the marketing complicated in the front end though. So they literally wouldn't fucking download it if I had to explain all this first. But everyone thinks that it's like, oh, if I sell this exact offer to this exact niche at this exact price in this exact way.
It's gonna work and all 52 of these will work for me independently so well It's not actually the case because what eventually actually happens in practice is that? Someone comes in and they had some offer that they were selling with a very we didn't get to this other point when I was explaining the the cold traffic offers the other new ones are a low commitment and risk reversals and we could talk about that in a minute, um But it's like if you have if you're just starting and you have zero case studies It's like if I if I pick a random one right here where this guy sells $10 ,000 for a 90 -day build, then retainer plus 10 % rev share.
And like the only way he's able to sell that is because he has case studies. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?
But then it's like, well, then you have to go find the ones. It loses the nuance. Yeah.
You find the ones. You have to start. Like you could sell a similar offer, but you're not going to do it for $10 ,000 upfront when you have zero case studies.
So what do you need to do instead? You're going to need to make a lower commitment and you're going to need to have a risk reversal. And that's the only way that you're going to be able to get somebody to purchase that.
It's just, it's straight up. That just is how it is. Yeah.
And then once you have case studies, you can gradually increase the price over time as you can command that price. So I remember the first agency I ever ran was an Instagram growth agency. And this is when follow unfollow worked.
So this was like 2018 or something like that. Yeah. And dude actually cooked.
It was like hilariously well. Yeah. But.
You use this platform called, it's called Jarvee. Okay. And you could like automate the following and the unfollowing and shit.
And it had all the, it had all the statistics in it. And you needed their Instagram password. And I was like, how are you going to get someone, a stranger from the internet to give you their Instagram password?
Like let alone pay me, it's like $150. So this is like a BDC product. Cause it's just like, people want to grow their Instagram.
So I'm like, There's just no way this is going to work. There's no way I'm going to get someone to just pay me $150 a month and give me their Instagram password.
I am a stranger. You'd have to be retarded to do that, like legitimately stupid. So I was like, well, the only way this is going to work is if I have other people, like verifiable, active people on Instagram, where if someone were to message them, they would say, yes, this is legit.
It's the only way. I had to go find, I found five people to do free. The first person was someone I knew.
So then I had her and I leveraged her to get the next four people for free. And I just cold emailed people. I'll go on their Instagram profile, click the email button and email them and be like, hey, I'm working with this person right here and I'm looking for more clients to do it for free because I need case studies to show that I'm not a random internet scammer.
You can message her, you can do whatever. I had to get on calls with these people to do it for free. So then I did that.
did it for free for five people for three months. And then only when I got the before and after pictures of they went from this many followers to this many followers, was I able to then start cold emailing people asking for actual money. And then I got that to like, I think it was like 80 people.
So it was making like pretty damn good amount of money. It was like 12K a month or something like that. I was like 20, you know what I mean?
I was fresh out of college. That's what it took. That's what you do.
And then what happened was that kind of got destroyed. Algorithm changed, screwed that up. And then, well, I got all the clients with cold email though.
So that business literally went to zero overnight. I said, fuck. But I got all the clients with cold email.
So I was like, let me just go sell cold email as a service to other marketing agencies. And that's what I did. And then the case study.
was me. It was my own business. And so I was like, well, here's literally all of the stats.
Here's just like all the emails I sent, all the stats behind it. Here's the actual Stripe screenshots. And like, I just put this all on a landing page where I was like very just upfront, straightforward about the reality of the situation.
And then you get other people where they're like, they'll lie about case studies. They'll like not mention the fact that they don't have case studies. And it's like, why would you do that?
Like I said, it's like, That's like assuming the prospect is a retard. You know what I'm saying?
It's like they're not going to ask if you have any social proof. Of course they are. It's like if you don't have any, address that up front.
Say, I don't have any case studies. Therefore, to compensate for that, I have a guarantee where I guarantee you book 25 calls a month. And if you don't, you get a refund.
In fact, you actually only pay me as the calls occur. So you don't even have the possibility of losing money because you only pay me. If they happen, you get what I'm saying?
I absolutely get what you're saying. Yeah, and then you do that as time progresses. And it's always so funny because you see like, I remember seeing a YouTube video one time and it was an interesting title.
It's like, what to say when a prospect asks for case studies. I was like, I would love to see this person's take because I know my take and mine is objectively correct. And it was like, yeah, what you got to tell them is, is anything in life guaranteed?
I was like, you're fucking right. It's as if you're going to objection handle your way. out of that it's just the dumbest possible thing it's like well it's it's just dumb yeah you know what i mean it's like oh i have to come up with something like sales jujitsu fucking retargeting as a or you could just design reality in such a fashion to where all these variables are addressed and the deal is actually fair for the person and like it ends up working out because it's a proven way to go about it yeah you know what i mean 100 dude it's uh it reminds me of and i'm curious your take on this um so i have a really good friend of mine who when he graduated college this was like two years ago or something um could not get a job first year was like just zero luck whatsoever and during that time period i was running my business labify health and i had found this some guy from india who was running health theme pages And each one had like 500 ,000 plus followers, all completely like real followers, not fake.
And I was like, dude, can you run my business as Instagram and do something similar, but like mainly for lab work? And he's like, yeah, dude, 400 bucks a month. I was like, let's do it, whatever.
So I was having this guy run my Instagram producing. I think we were at like 125 ,000 followers or something at the time. And I was like, Jake, like my friend, I was like, dude, just partner with this guy.
He has all the case studies. Fulfillment is cheap. The only reason this guy isn't succeeding in the marketplace is because he has the thickest Indian accent known to mankind.
You partner, be the face, have him do the fulfillment. You have these incredible case studies and then just cold email. And that was.
shit want to call it like 12 months ago is that like 40k a month now doing that nice um just same principles um of like i i really like that strategy of if you don't have the case studies you know you could partner with other people there are certain people who have these other things outside of fulfillment that are limited and limiting them from you know having success in the marketplace yeah yeah so i'll talk about the other components and then i can kind of like go through some of these, but just for everyone watching this reminder, there's the four pillars of a cold traffic offer.
So we talked about the first one, which is new money. Yep. And then next one was logistical intensity.
The next one is low commitment. So what that means is it's effectively just either the price is low or there's no long -term contracts. If something is lower in price.
you're gonna get more people to buy it's very simple if there's there's no long -term contracts you get more people to buy it's very simple um the next is risk reversals which is arguably the most important aspect of any offer at all and it's actually people people are so against using these for some odd reason and it's it's very interesting the argument they might otherwise make um imagine there's some agency owner and they're selling some service i don't say it's a instagram thing yep Again, ultimately, why would anyone buy any kind of agency service at all?
They want to make more money. To make more money. Okay.
So the argument somebody makes if they don't have a risk reversal is, well, if this client gives me money and I don't get them results, I want to keep the money. Oh, okay. So like the definition of a scam.
Right? Okay. Now, it gets a little more nuanced than that, which is, There are some things that are required from the client in order to get results in the first place.
Yes. So most of the time, it obviously depends on the combination of a service provider and client, but a lot of the time, the reason a client doesn't get a result is their own fault. They don't have a cold traffic offer that's possible to sell in the first place.
They don't know how to close. calls at all. They literally, they have zero sales process.
They are functionally incapable of closing cold traffic calls. Something else is screwed up. They don't, their funnel is like, it's normally like a lot of the time it's their own fault.
Which is funny because you got to imagine the difference between like a done for you buyer versus like a, someone who buys like a coaching program or a consulting program. So who buys a coaching or consulting program? The answer is somebody who Wants to do it themselves.
Yeah, want to do it themselves, self -education, take responsibility for stuff. Ultimately, ultimately, a lot of the times, a done -for -you buyer, and it's like if they make less than like a million dollars a year, it's normally because they're normally regarded. That's generally what it is.
Their business is struggling. It's their own fault. They refuse to come to that realization.
Generally, it's... their own fault, why they don't get results. However, that's why you use what are called stipulations in a contract.
So like if I say, for instance, I'll book you 30 calls, something like that.
And so it's through ads. Well, I'm going to guarantee I'll book you 30 calls and you refuse to film any of the ads. Whose fault is it?
the client. Yeah. So, so it's like, okay, well, what would that mean?
It would mean that you put in a contract that they need to film 30 ads a month. And if they don't film 30 ads a month, then the guarantee is guarantee is boy. Cause it's not functionally possible for, to get the result at all.
If that does not occur, then you have, then you might have another one where it's like, well, you need to spend X amount of money on ads, which is how am I going to, you can't generate them 30 calls from ads if they don't spend money on ads. So it's like, Well, that's pretty clear.
You know what I mean? So, but then if you were guaranteeing like signed clients, for instance, you could theoretically guarantee that you need to close at least 10 % of the showed up sales calls, which is like terrible. You know what I mean?
So it's like, it's a very reasonable close rate to have a minimum on. But it's like, yeah, dude, I mean, if I book you 35 calls and close, all of them are qualified, like objectively, and you close zero of them. Like get fucked.
You know what I mean? Like that's your own problem. You know what I mean?
I'm not giving you your money back like that, but it's called a stipulation, right? That's how you protect yourself. You have to be reasonable.
You know what I mean? It can't be like egregiously like impossible to hit result stipulations. um because they're obviously going to see the stipulations of the con you know these are hidden from them it's very clear up front what is occurring here like i'll do this if you do this it's an exchange right like a lot of what a deal is it's not just about how much money something costs is that the terms of the deal that arguably matter more um that's what that is every deal like it's also another just just a nuance um everyone thinks like starting an agency or something and I think it's so I We sell this exact service for this exact price and it's a it doesn't it doesn't work like that It's like every deal is gonna be custom is good.
It's so great, but it's sales. It's just you're you're making concessions You're making ass and it's like you make the fucking the dip or you get shit where it's like How much should I charge for this? It was like the maximum amount you can That's the answer.
The answer of how much you should charge is the most amount you can possibly get someone to give you. That's what it is. That's the answer.
There's no like, for this service, you need to charge this much. It's retarded. So ultimately, if you have a guarantee on your offer, roughly, and I'm going to use rough numbers here, but it's at least going to work 10 times better.
At least an order of magnitude of 10. It's that extreme. It is that extreme of a difference.
And there's so many people trying to sell something who they don't use a guarantee. And it's like, if you just used one, your life would be so much better. You would just do so much better.
Like actually, like client extension has a guarantee. Any low ticket product I make has a guarantee. It's like, it's the number one.
Thing people ask what if it doesn't work and you're just ignoring that, you know, it doesn't doesn't make any sense. Mm -hmm Yeah, it's a it's a great point. I think um Like Daniel Island, I don't know Isles Isles Isles his guarantee like that is it's a great case study of like I think his whole business is Probably predicated like the whole success.
Yeah entire businesses are built around a guarantee 100 % Like a great guarantee is is almost like a second offer. Yeah, you know, it's a very interesting i mean you go to any like grocery store for i mean like what's the refund policy at target do you have the receipt has it been within 30 days refund yeah like publics it's where there's a grocery store in the south you could literally bring in a cake that is like 90 percent eaten and like they'll yeah yeah they'll take i mean that's like that's fraud you know what i mean but they'll do it it's totally it's but there's a lot of like i i think men are probably not as as much of like consumers of clothing but i know like certain women will buy from certain stores at a incredibly higher frequency because they know that they have a liberal return policy yes because like they know like oh i want to try it on at home like before going out and there's a it works in all industries is what i'm trying to say here is that there's a very high likelihood there yeah i mean like amazon you can return anything to amazon
But there's also just a very micro percentage of people who throw a conniption, complete shit fit if they don't get a refund for something. So it's almost like you kind of just have to give them a refund. They're totally in the wrong.
And they're a complete fucking psychopath. But they're just going to cause problems. It's just purchasing a problem to go away.
Crazy reviews, all that fun stuff. Yeah, no doubt. So 52 offers there.
Yeah. um i like you like you broke down there's really five and then yeah yeah so ultimately yeah so if i'm going through this like a lot of them are just like performance -based lead gen but then it comes back to like well like what what what is the medium by which that the lead gen is occurring and the answer is it's it's it's it's ads it's so ads are cold email but generally normally when it's a beginner it's cold email why because it's cheaper compared to ads where it's like ultimately like with ads see ads are very funny because um if you sell a b2b offer on ads the cac the cost to acquire a customer is going to be 3 000 plus or minus 1500 and like 98 of the cases that's what's going to be so therefore the economics of your business must fit into those parameters yeah if it doesn't then it's like you just can't run ads it just straight up doesn't it literally can't work like you can't just sell anything people think you sell anything so it's like you take something look at list kit for instance it's 5 .97 a month the cac will be three thousand dollars plus or minus fifteen hundred it's gonna raise between fifteen hundred and forty five hundred dollars it just will that's just what it is it will always be like that's how the market is so what does that mean it's like well if you were to try to acquire
for Liscate with cold traffic, well, then you would need a profuse amount of capital to hold that negative cashflow for three or four or five months, perhaps. And if you don't have that, then you simply can't use ads. It's really that simple.
You just, you can't. And it's just like the laws of physics where it's like, well, why can't I fly? I want to fly.
What's it too fucking bad? You just can't do it. You simply just can't do it.
It simply doesn't work. No. Obviously, there's ways by there's some arbitrage opportunities sometimes exist.
That sometimes is the case. But arbitrage opportunities are fleeting. And it's this business needs to work regardless of a fleeting opportunity.
So it's like when normally what people do, like they start a lead gen agency. They'll do it via cold email because cold email is cheap in comparison to ads. So for instance, you have something like ListKit, or I just said, normally you charge like a $600 a month tech fee, and then you send cold emails on behalf of a client.
That tech fee. covers the domains and inboxes. That's very easy to sell actually because it's very simple to explain to the person, I'm not profiting on this.
It's to buy you domains, it's to buy you inboxes. They're your domains, they're your inboxes. You would have them regardless of you were working with me or not.
So it's very easy to sell that. And then it's, well, I'm just operating this cold email system for you and you're going to pay me $200 for every call I book. Literally the most reliable business model ever.
Like highest success rate for beginners ever. Just because it's so easy to sell. And it's so low risk for the client.
And there's very little of anything that is not that case. Because it's like, ultimately, the client does nothing. So highest undone for you.
It's new money, zero logistical intensity for the client. It's low commitment. And it has a risk reversal because it's performance -based.
It is maxed out on all four of those. Now compare that. to a content agency, for instance.
And you could have, so, oh, I do done for you YouTube content for you or something like that. Once again, it could be new money because it's new opportunity. It could be low commitment because there's no contracts and you charge like an objectively lower amount of money.
You could have a guarantee that they sign X amount of clients, but they need to film. And the fact that they just have to film severely degrades. how easy it is to sign clients.
Very much so. You take any of those dials, you turn it down and it's like, it's so much harder. If you got them all maxed out, so that is the reason why so many people are so successful with a cold email lead gen agency because all of the dials are all turned to the max and it's so fucking easy to sell it.
Anything else is just progressively more difficult. However, you could have something like, generally what would happen is if you sign the client on like a done for you YouTube agency offer, done for you content offer or something like that, generally the LTV is going to be higher. Normally, because it's just the client committed to something more.
Therefore, that is a signal to them being more like committed to their business in and of itself. And it's like, I mean, a lot of churn. happens because they literally just go out of business.
The client just decides to stop running their business. That's literally what happens. Most people running a business make no money.
It's really eye -opening. Yeah. For somebody who has never really sold agency services or something like that, most clients or people you try to sell your stuff to, they're poor.
They don't have money. They just don't. They're completely broke and they have no lead gen systems.
They understand nothing. They're really just like profusely helpless people. So it's very important you get case studies as quickly as possible because only in the presence of case studies can you get progressively higher and higher quality people.
to work with, in which case your LTV will be tremendously higher and your life will be significantly less stressful. One of the things in there that interested me because of that exact point was the, it was essentially, I think like similar to this cold email offer, but for, I think it was like multifamily real estate investors and you're doing cold email outreach for, or outreach in general for a like multifamily, like off market deals.
And I like that combination of the niching, the cold email to something where the average, the ICP has money in general. Yes. Like those, that's a, that's a winning combination.
Like even any kind of like capital raise of any, of, of any kind generally. I mean, you generally want to do that with ads. Cause it's kind of B2C.
It isn't, but it's, it's, I mean, you could do it with cold email. It's just.
It's just what's called a demand capture offer. A demand capture offer means that you can only sell it to people who are actively looking for it. I give you for instance, are you hungry right now?
Not really. You're not? You just ate?
Okay. So if I say, say, say like you just had a giant like breakfast. Yep.
I'm like, would you like more breakfast? Absolutely not. Yeah.
It's a demand capture offer. You only sell food when somebody. happens to actively need food.
You know what I mean? And that only occurs at specific windows. So like one, for instance, that is like IT services.
You can't just generate demand for IT services. You either need it or you don't. You know what I mean?
Like recruiting. It's a demand capture offer. You can only sell it when somebody happens to need it at that exact moment.
See what I mean? Absolutely. I understand that.
So going back to the content agency thing, because there was a note there that I wanted to touch on. So let's take... um either like a youtube or a like a linkedin twitter type of thing uh both done for you you know new money the going back to the logistical intensity there um for linkedin and twitter it seems kind of nice in the sense that yeah zero low low low logistical intensity yeah but with the youtube stuff how would you then mitigate the logistical intensity there Um, a stronger guarantee and stronger case studies.
Um, and that's pretty much. That's the method. Yeah.
So you combat the logistical intensity. Like if you can't overcome that, you're just going to need to strengthen three and four. Well, yeah, you got to imagine the dials.
If one goes down, you must increase the other. That's, that's, that's the only way. Very cool.
So there's, there's no other component really besides those four. So you're just like. we're just going to break down.
We're looking new money, logistical intensity, low commitment, risk reversal. And you're just looking at those four things and you're trying to turn the dials up as much as possible, whatever it is you want to do. We're just, we're flipping those things up as much as possible.
And it's literally, that's, that's the name of the game. Yeah. So, I mean, you look at the YouTube thing and it's like, Oh, say it's like a $4 ,000 a month service or something like that.
And it's like, well, you have the logistical intensity they need to film. But then, um, say you're guaranteeing, I'll guarantee you sign five paid clients a month or something like that.
And it's like, Oh, I'm having a tough time. Well, it's like, what would happen if you made it like $500? You know what I mean?
Cause, but, but for instance, if you had case studies that was like, say it was like just big name, big name case studies, you wouldn't have this issue of signing people. So it's like, you need to dial, dial these things around to where it's like, It's probably not the best deal for you in the beginning, and then you get the case studies, and over time, you know what I mean?
It's like you start at the bottom. Everyone wants to start at the top. It doesn't work like that.
It's just the indoctrination period you go through. You just have to deal with getting the shitty end of the stick for a while until you have case studies, and then now it's easier. You know what I mean?
Yeah, absolutely. You just build. credibility in a market over time so it's like i mean like i can go to my email list and launch a new offer and make half a million dollars in a week you know what i mean that's what i did with ai assisted agency and it's like well that's all that was at the back of like four years of building an audience you know what i mean so it just just takes a long time yeah it's like uh you ever hear that i think it was picasso who So they were out like someone was at dinner and they gave Picasso who knows if it's a true story piece of paper Like yo, can you draw me something real quick?
Yeah, it's just fucking scribbled hand it back to him. It's like $20 ,000 guys. I took you two minutes.
He's like no took me 40 years. Yeah took me 40 years But so going to the AIS this is the agency stuff I want to make a note on that because the more I pour myself into the AI world the more I see that we're in this weird window where there's a bit of an arbitrage between certain things not everything being able to fulfill a little bit closer to like a software company but being able to charge service level prices certain things there that certain different businesses that kind of allow that like the one that comes to mind for me you have to be really dialed in in order to achieve this well would be like linkedin or twitter like right now using obsidian for like a second brain source and getting a really dialed in skill for writing that combination of things i feel like i could fulfill really easily on yeah at a really high quality to me there's you know that there's an arbitrage there and i think that it's a such a cool window in time we have right now with this ai assisted kind of world yeah well ultimately even from the dawn of time like an agency well not dawn of time but like decades like it is is
an agency has always been just somebody you selling you operating a software on behalf of somebody ultimately yeah like that actually is what so it's like an ads manager okay well you're just operating an ads manager for somebody like yeah there's other components to it or like it's like oh i do cold email for them it's like yeah you're just like operating a cold email software for somebody that's literally what it's always been like that it's just it just so happens that ai has made some of this like tremendously easier so like uh one bottleneck i had maybe like two years ago, was making landing pages.
Giant pain in the ass. You know what I mean? And then it's like, okay, well, then you hire somebody to build landing pages for you.
That's five grand a month or whatever. He's like a designer and whatnot. And it's like, okay, well, now I can just either use something like Manus or just a combination of Vercel and Codex or Cloud Code and just spins up a landing page.
Like literally in like two minutes, it spins up like a beautiful landing page that works, functions perfectly well. And like, that's it. It's like, oh, cool.
And that's a hundred bucks a month for your cloud code subscription. Cool. And then you can make like 90 of them a day.
You know what I mean? It's like really that simple. And then you can even build stuff where it's like, okay, we'll make a split test for me and come up with the split test should be and make a schedule for making new split tests.
And then like, programmatically figure out which winner of the split test is which and then based off the data of that split test come up with a new split test and you just like have it like cascade and do that by itself for multiple weeks it could just do that just operate that for you you just set it on a schedule so these are just examples of things like that or so i'll give you for instance um i have a routine set up uh with the fathom api i record all my stuff all my calls with fathom um it takes the transcript sends it to uh File on my computer.
It could be hosted in the cloud if you wanted to. I just put it on my computer. And then I have a document that analyzes every single call I do, and it updates it weekly based off of new information or updated information called The Master Lessons of Daniel Fazio.
It's 133 pages, and it's literally just like everything. Just any piece of advice or just idea or thought sequence is in there. It grabs my YouTube videos too.
So if this is posted on my YouTube, like it'll be there or I'll like manually feed it in there. And it will be updated with what I've spoken about here today. And then what I'll do from that is I'll come up with ideas for emails for my newsletter based off what I already said in my meeting.
So I don't have to like, you know what I mean? And it can fully write it sometimes too. And then it's like, okay, well, I need a YouTube video where it's like, well, you went on this tangent.
For 30 minutes with this guy on this call so you can make a YouTube video and that I'm like don't sounds good easy And that's that's just what I do. Yeah, it's dude. It's a it's a super cool window in time right now I highly recommend people check out the Isis stuff Those sit there like building shit all day.
It's like you're not doing you're really not doing anything So it's like been there. There's like inside my computer the other day. There's like these there's just so many questions about like cold email deliverability and just stupid cold email bullshit.
And I sent a message and I was like, you guys need to stop worrying about the stupid bullshit of cold email deliverability. It doesn't matter if this inbox is on one blacklist out of like fucking 90 something blacklist. It doesn't matter.
Like it's like, you're gonna get one like microcosm of one subsection of type of inbox on this one domain. that they're not going to get delivered that email who gives a like why are you worried about it doesn't matter and then i was like what is the bottleneck like someone and i i always ask this to people who are like just asking for advice it's somebody always is trying to ask about something that is totally not relevant at all it always just comes down to always ask them why are you asking me this what is the bottleneck what is the purpose of you asking me this question what are you trying to solve and it's like Trying to solve some non -issue that has nothing to do with them making more money literally doesn't matter at all.
There's only three things that you could be concerned with at any given time. Generating more leads, closing those leads, and getting them results. That's it.
There's literally nothing else that you could possibly be doing in a business. If it does not fall within those categories and be directly moving the ball forward, why are you doing it? I'll give you a for instance.
If the guy worried about the cold email deliverability shit, it's like, You could be, I'll assume this guy has no money. He's like, I'll assume he's a beginner and like has no capital and needs to just use his time instead.
You could be sitting on LinkedIn manually prospecting for new leads. And you're fucking with like searching up what obscure non -relevant blacklist this one particular domain is on. Who gives a fuck?
Why does that matter?
People, they go into these tirades of like learning these different things where it's like, oh yeah, I set up my Hermes agent to do this and this and this and this and this and this. I'm like, have you made more money? I'm like, well, why are you doing it then?
So I'll give you a for instance. What makes me more money? Top number one priority makes me the most money is filming YouTube videos, writing email newsletters, maybe going on podcasts like this, trying to make, like the one with Emon, for instance, or like trying to do stuff like that.
That's what makes me money. I'm not going to sit here and screw around trying to set up some like fucking AI agent that goes through all this and does... It's like non...
It doesn't matter. It's like you need... It's not a revenue -driven action.
Yeah, you use AI to help you solve a bottleneck. So it's like what... A clear example before was I use AI to make me landing pages.
Why? Because I can make more lead magnets and I can like, if I were to sit here and try to make my own landing page on ClickFunnels or GoHighLevel or Framer myself, it would take like hours to do this and I have to like manually, it's a pain in the ass. Now I can just spin them up like that and I can spin up email sequences like that and it's just.
I solved the bottleneck. There's a bottleneck that lets me produce more content quicker. Anything that isn't that is, it's just completely useless.
It doesn't matter. I mean, dude, that's a great point. I wanted to ask you about like the in real life stuff.
Cause like all these, when we're talking about offers and just this whole conversation thus far, it lives in the lens of the internet. And I think that like one of the things for looking at Just the direction things are going and people want connection.
Like it's not completely going away. And there seems to be some kind of opportunities that lie in doing shit in real life world. Any offers or things you kind of see there that are of interest to you?
Like obviously you guys did that big event a few times. like i remember on the boat that one year for client ascension like any anything kind of like that that you feel like is a winning offer right now or well no i mean that that's all warm traffic offers yeah it's like yeah you could like sell stuff to things to people in real life and i i don't think it's as as big as people otherwise believe it to be i mean like it's cool to go meet people in person but it's like as somebody who's sold tickets to in -person events it's like it's difficult to sell tickets to in -person events it just is and then like you make like half of the sales like the week up and it's like so it's like very financially like strenuous because it's like you have no idea if you're gonna lose or make money and normally it's so stupidly expensive to get a place anywhere at all it's just it's just it's yeah dude i mean you can you can have a very simple event for like 50 people and it's like $40 ,000.
So it's in some, in like Tampa, you know, it's like, well, how the fuck is it? How do we spend 40 grand? You know, it's just completely ridiculous.
It's just, it's just, it's just absurd. Um, but in terms of like offers, like it always comes down to what is the best way that you can turn those cold traffic dials up? So I'll give you a one, for instance, one of my clients, uh, his name is a rebate $400 ,000 a month.
And he's a content agency. But he's not just a content agency. He has a studio.
So the logistical intensity of getting somebody to film is not just that they need to physically sit down and film. It's that they don't know how to work cameras. Yeah, they don't want to deal with any of that shit.
They don't know how to work lighting and this and the... files and this over here and all these cords and plugs. It's confusing.
No one knows how to do this. Yeah, it's kind of difficult. Yeah.
So he has a studio and he runs ads locally to bring them to the studio. So it's like he has a business where he rents out studio time or it's just, yes, we run a content agency and you come to my studio. You get what I'm saying?
Absolutely. Makes 400 grand a month from that. It's like, that's...
But what is that ultimately? Again, it's just turning the logistical intensity dial up so that they can... It's easier.
Yes. So that it's easier. That is a great point.
That is a great offer. I think about a studio in Miami. I think it's called The Move.
The Move in Miami. And they do a great job of that. They're crushing it using that exact same method.
But I wanted to ask you, so like that LinkedIn X... kind of content offer right now we mentioned very cool in the sense of new money logistical intensity is low how would you kind of um quantify low commitment and risk reversal for that one um i'm assuming it would be something like x number of impressions 90 days a month so you guarantee calls book or client signed that's how you like to think about you don't like to think about the metrics you like to think about calls book well you could a more leading indicator like that, but it's just going to convert less than a lagging indicator such as calls booked or clients signed.
It'll work, but it's not going to work as well as those ones. It's just how far do you need to take the dial to make it to work? Yeah.
It's a scary thing promising calls booked or clients signed because especially when you're talking like organic. Well, most of the time if they like you, they just won't ask for a refund. Yeah.
That's the objective truth is that. Especially if you work hard. Yeah.
And if they like the service subjectively, like to ask for a refund is to say, I don't like the service. Yeah. It's to say, I don't like the service.
And it's to say, I don't want to use the service anymore. It's like, not going to give you a refund and then continue having you be my client. You know what I mean?
So it's, if they want to keep doing it, they're not going to ask for a refund. I mean, that would crush like, it's just those three dials alone. Not even, I mean, it does go into the low commitment.
The risk reversal and the low commitment are almost tied. Yeah, well, also sometimes you can have just really good case studies to the point where it kind of like diminishes. It is the risk reversal in a way.
Yeah, it is. Sometimes people just have such high FOMO that all of that, you don't need any of that anymore. It's a great point, dude.
It is a really great point. I wanted to ask you about AI in general right now. So you mentioned like the Manus thing.
um we mentioned kind of a lot of the mental masturbation going on around that space um in terms of like specific things that you're like holy right now directions of the way things are moving things that you're kind of seeing right now anything with it with that whole ai world that kind of speaks to you right now like the ai video stuff is cool but if you look at anything ai video like it's it's making ads or it's teaching people how to make a video and that's what I mean, like, ultimately, like, most of the market for an AI right now is, like, the infrastructure itself or education around it.
Yep. And that's, like, what the economy of it is. Like, I mean, or, like, I'll give you one, like, AI SEO or, like, AEO, they call it now.
It's, like, those are the offers selling right now in AI is AI video for ads and AEO. Mm -hmm. That's pretty much it.
Or just the infrastructure providers of it. And, like, everything else is retarded. It's all just like circle jerking nonsense that doesn't make any money.
And it's like, dude, I get a lot of cold emails. And like 70 % of them are about AI engine optimization right now. Like SEO stuff.
All of it. Why? Because it's text generation.
It's, you know what I mean? It's just easy. It's easy to do.
Easy to fulfill. Yeah. But I just, like if you want to.
an offer to sell right now it's like you could you could you could sell that you could have an offer where it's like oh yeah let's do some ai engine optimization it's like well no one searches for your kind of product on ai in the first place like no one's searching for your corporate training program on ai you know what i mean you're not going to just make a bajillion fucking dollars a month now because like you did you paid some guy 10 grand a month to do ai no one was searching for it at all you know what i mean so it doesn't matter um it has to be something that's a searched search thing yeah exactly supplements or like almost same things that would work well for google ads it's like yeah exactly yeah it's exactly so demand capture offers yeah yeah so that's that that's that's what that works for interesting uh and then other like tools anything else like in your world yeah i like like the idea of uh ai sales and ai voice is pretty cool i don't think it's there yet but i i think it should be uh it should be soon and now it that'd be cool when it is there
And that's just because... Like, I know Grockbot was kind of cool, and I haven't played with it too much yet, but... It's all right.
But the reason why I don't play with it too much is because I can just kind of clearly see, like, what bottleneck is this solving? Yeah. Is it, like...
I can't even think of something for Grockbot to do, because it's like, well, I've designed... Like... You ever hear people say shit where it's like...
Yeah, you make grok bought your executive assistant or something like that and I'm like to do fucking what? to do what it's like to book you flights and like Two seconds to book a flight. Why do I need a grok bought to?
What are you talking about? It's just dumb. It's always it's always just it's circle jerking.
Yeah. Oh It's it's it's all disingenuous circle jerking around like this is gonna change everything it's like no it's not and i i understand why you're seeing all this and it's it's because it's from influencers whose business is teaching it and they're going to marketing and that's completely fine and i get that and i would also like to be in the business that that that they're in because i understand that that's humans have the tendency to consume yeah it's going back to useless stupid bullshit like that and it's like and they will pay money for it they straight up will but I'm just not going to fall for it myself.
It's like, it's not to say this stuff isn't cool. It could be useful in a contextual way that I may, it may be an unknown, unknown to me right now. It's just that I do, I only do the things as a bottleneck.
The landing pages, one is just the best example. It's like, they literally changed my life. And it's like, I can make so much more.
Now, just from that one thing, we're trying to build an AI setter right now, and that would really help a lot. Have you used BB9? Have you tried BB9?
No, we're just custom building it ourselves. Oh, nice. BB9's okay.
It's not the same. It's tough, dude. The AI setters, it would be cool when it hits that point.
Yeah. Are you concerned about it getting banned, the AI setter stuff? No, not really.
Yeah. Just be like, whatever. Yeah.
Just keep using humans, but I would prefer to not need to use humans. Yeah. You know what I mean?
They're going to be cool if you don't have to, but it's just not there yet. Or you got to custom build it yourself, which is what we're doing. And so you, for the landing page stuff, you're a Manus guy.
Yeah. Well, it depends. Manus went down and then I moved a bunch of them over and I was like, oh, well, yeah, it's kind of easier to just use Codex and Vercel.
Yeah. kind of is just like faster and easier and i gotta try that i've i've uh i've been framer framer api to cloud code yeah yeah that works too that works great that works great i've been a big fan of that one um and then i really want to ask you about just like working with partners like everything i've ever done from a business standpoint has just been essentially kind of on my own in a way um and i very much admire like what you guys have done like you guys have a very cool um almost like C -suite team of co -founders for essentially the whole suite of things you guys offer with Client Ascension.
What has it been like kind of working with partners? Is that something like you recommend, like someone starting one of those 52 agencies? Do you think that that should be an endeavor you kind of?
go into like solo if you have someone who's also interested in this world like should you guys partner up do this stuff together how do you think about working with partners from your team I found mine by happenstance I was selling a course called cold email mastery like 8 ,000 people bought it in like 2020 and they bought it cold email wizard days yeah it was a fun time yeah I had um I had a community and they were super active in the community and they successfully built their own cold email agency as well and I was like I want to sell a high ticket coaching program because people were asking for it but i don't want to sit here and have to do all the coaching myself so i paired up with them and made client ascension and then just just been things since then hell yeah dude and then so like they were just they were just competent people like i was i was sure and it was exemplified they were competent already i feel like a lot of people will get a business partner out of fear because they don't want to do something themselves but then like they figure out that this person is not competent at all and they just have some expert of the company and they do all it's
You know what I mean? Like I would do something myself. It's just nice to not have to run a sales team myself.
It's nice to not have to run the ops myself and I just get to market and that's it. I enjoy that. Yeah.
Yeah. Me as well. I kind of find myself in the fulfillment side of things and just some things kind of just suck to do.
We all have our strengths and weaknesses and all that fun stuff. I'm going to ask this a very selfish question. So advice for let's, I'm trying to see if we want to go exact into my situation or just with my skill sets and build an offer around that.
Let's go kind of more broadly speaking. Let's say somebody has done a podcast. They've done 200 plus episodes.
And then they have some sort of, let's call it in the realm of like, 5 ,000 followers on whatever platform it is, not long form, say Instagram or LinkedIn or X. And they're just like, what do I do?
You need bigger names on podcasts. That's it. That's it.
This is bigger names. But in terms of making money.
Sponsorships, that's one. Or selling your own offer. But the offer needs to be contextual with the topics, the kinds of people that you're having.
you know what i'm saying and so you think about things through monetizing in that lens of sponsorships like you wouldn't think about it in terms of and like this is something i'm not even really interested in because i have you know stuff with labify but like like my editor is like dude can we do like a done for you podcast agency um yeah stuff like that do you like offers like that type of stuff like or would you like lean more into the sponsorship stuff well it depends what access to traffic you have to you have access to it's like who's watching the podcast what is the topic of of the podcast it was just if you could sell a done for you i'll set up and do all the production of your podcast and like yeah that would that would absolutely work um i think that was actually advice that i think it was jeremy haynes gave to what does it do myron something and with miami or something oh yeah yeah the uh what the fuck is that podcast called um i i don't know but it was like they could they could easily guys they could easily sell like a 250 000 oh yeah like i'll set up your podcast and show you all the content systems and like how to set up all the tech behind it and like you have a studio over here and like yeah that would that
if you have that kind of person watching it, you know, or you have that much traffic, you know what I'm saying? But if you have like a health podcast or something like that, well, then it makes contextual sense to have something like a, like a blood work offer. You know what I mean?
That's, that's, and then on the back of that, a health coaching offer. But a lot of, a lot of times you need association with people. For instance, If you're trying to do health stuff, it probably makes sense to partner with somebody and give equity to somebody like Noah Ryan.
You know what I mean? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, it just makes contextual sense to do that because they have traffic and they're a strategic partner, then they can be an owner of it and they can push it as well.
I love that play. I love giving equity away in that sense. I think it takes a lot of the burden and the need of proof and skepticism away from an offer.
Yeah. It's a great way to do it. And so offer for somebody right now on the sidelines.
They don't really know what they want to do. Let's say they just graduated college. They just watch a little YouTube.
They watch a little Daniel Fazio, but they don't really have many skills for the game. What's the offer? I have a guess of what you would say.
It's any kind of lead gen where you sell leads to somebody. It doesn't matter how the leads are generated. I mean, ultimately, it will probably be them cold emailing.
Yep. Because it's, as I said earlier, it's just super cheap to do. You charge a $600 tech fee and then $200 to $300 to $400 a call.
And that's it. Highest success rate offer of all time, like legit. But if you have like an audience and you want to make content and you like AI stuff, like you're not going to get AI automation clients from cold outreach.
You're not. You have to make content to do that. So if that's the business you want to run, you need to make content.
You have no option. you must do that it's not going to work with cold outreach um you have something like uh e -commerce email marketing it's like that is extremely difficult to get clients for why because it's not new money and there's hella high competition so you have no mo so um normally it's going to be you're selling leads you know ultimately what seems to happen over time with people is they sell cold email legion as a service so they're legion agency and then ultimately they start piloting ads with their clients and then they learn how to run ads.
And then now it's like, oh, now I can, a cold email, you maybe get someone like 10, 20 calls a month, 20 calls if it's like a really good offer. Take them over to ads, you can book like 500 a month. You make hundreds of thousands of dollars from single clients.
And it's just, it's how that works. I mean, lead generation is hundreds of billions of dollars. industry people just buy leads and every business operates off leads almost all of them badass daniel appreciate you brother thank you for taking time
The Hook
The bait, then the rug-pull.
Cold email is one of the most reliably profitable channels in client acquisition, but Daniel Fazio opens by admitting the industry sells it on a lie: the advertised sticker price assumes a sending setup that would burn to spam on day one.
Add Modern Creator as a preferred source and Google shows you more of our breakdowns in Search, Top Stories, and AI Overviews. It only changes what you see, and you can undo it in your Google settings anytime.
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RyMac wires Claude Code straight into Consulti and the ICM folder system, live and unedited, to replace a four-tool cold email stack with one same-day pipeline.
A screen-recorded walkthrough of using Apollo's AI to find, qualify, and cold-email thousands of prospects — plus the human judgment AI still can't replace.
An 18-minute walkthrough of wiring Claude Code into Clay's data platform to source, enrich, and write cold email copy for 50 leads from one natural-language prompt.
A screen-recorded walkthrough plugs Clay's new CLI straight into Claude Code, turning a single spoken prompt into a scraped, verified, cold-email-ready B2B prospect list.
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