The 3 Hidden AI Gold Rushes: How a $120M CEO Says You Can Make $1M in a Week
Cluely founder Roy Lee lays out the fastest overlooked ways to make money with AI right now, then spends the rest of the episode on loneliness, simulation theory, and the health risks he's taking to win faster.
Posted
yesterday
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Interview
hype
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31.9K
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57 · 43
Big Idea
The argument in one line.
AI has made building so cheap that the real money isn't in the AI product itself, it's in selling AI-made value, video ads, apps, websites, to the huge number of companies who haven't caught up yet.
Who This Is For
Read if. Skip if.
READ IF YOU ARE…
You want a concrete, no-fluff playbook for making money running AI video ads for companies, not a theory piece.
You're deciding whether to build an AI app, an AI video agency, or bet on AI infrastructure, and want a founder's blunt take on which lane pays fastest.
You're curious how a lean AI startup worth $100M+ actually runs day to day with two engineers and over a thousand creators paid on performance.
You want an unfiltered, non-academic take on AI girlfriends, male loneliness, and dating app economics from someone who thinks about it constantly.
SKIP IF…
You're looking for a polished, family-friendly interview. This episode is explicit, profane, and unfiltered from the first minute.
You want sourced data. Most numbers here (job-loss percentages, revenue figures, billionaire behavior) are the guest's off-the-cuff estimates, not cited research.
TL;DR
The full version, fast.
Cluely founder Roy Lee lays out the fastest AI money available right now: not building AI products, but selling AI-made output to the huge number of companies who don't yet grasp how good AI is. His formula is blunt: cold-email 100 venture-backed companies a free AI video ad made with Seedance 2.5, convert the ones that work into $10,000-a-month retainers, and repeat across 16 clients to clear $1M in six months. He backs the pitch with his own company, a $100M+ AI startup running seven products on two engineers while paying over a thousand creators on performance. The conversation then turns personal, covering AI girlfriends, simulation theory, why he thinks AI billionaires are building bunkers, and the physical risks he's knowingly taking to win faster.
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Roy names AI video ad agencies, AI app-building, and AI-lab infrastructure as the three overlooked ways to make money right now, and argues most companies don't yet know how good AI already is.
04:00 – 08:05
02 · Why AI Videos Are Extremely Profitable
The exact cold-email playbook: make a free ad with Seedance 2.5 for 100 funded startups, convert the ones that work into $10K/month retainers, and repeat to hit $1M.
08:05 – 11:20
03 · Roy Lee Explains Why Getting Rich Is Simple in 2026
Getting rich beats every prior era because AI removes the genetic-lottery barriers that used to gate wealth; the only gap left is between people who try and people who don't.
11:20 – 14:05
04 · Why AI Is Making Entry Level Jobs Obsolete
Roy predicts founders are hiring fewer people and automating instead, sets his estimate at 15% of today's college grads never finding work.
14:05 – 16:25
05 · Roy Lee Explains Why Companies Aren't Investing in AI Videos
Cluely runs seven products on two engineers plus over 1,000 creators paid purely on ad performance, a structure Roy says most companies haven't copied because marketing doesn't scale like other business functions.
16:25 – 17:40
06 · Ad Break
Scripted mid-roll PrizePicks sponsor read, delivered in first person by the host.
17:40 – 21:00
07 · Why Most College Graduates Can't Find Jobs After College
Roy widens the jobs prediction, calling even Ivy League students unemployably lazy in his experience, and pushes his five-year estimate for unemployable grads above 90%.
21:00 – 23:05
08 · Has AI Made Men Lonelier?
Roy says AI has close to zero role in male loneliness; he traces the collapse of in-person socializing to COVID and social media instead.
23:05 – 26:40
09 · Why Men Are Turning to AI Girlfriends in 2026
Character AI's revenue run rate, dating app dynamics, and why Roy thinks looks-only matching on apps has made average men give up on approaching women.
26:40 – 28:55
10 · Roy Lee Explains Why Some Men Need AI Girlfriends
Roy argues an AI girlfriend beats no girlfriend for men who are already isolated, since 'just approach women' won't work on someone who hasn't left the house in years.
28:55 – 31:15
11 · How Would Roy Lee Used Fable 5 If He Had No Restrictions
Given 24 hours of an unrestricted AI, Roy says he'd try to develop a cure for cancer; he doesn't hit safety limits often because he isn't building bioweapons or malware.
31:15 – 33:25
12 · Why AI Companies Say AI Will "Delete" Us All
Roy argues doomer sentiment benefits AI application-layer companies more than the labs, and floats that the government's brief Fable ban may have been a manufactured valuation pump.
33:25 – 37:55
13 · Roy Lee Explains Why AI Billionaires Are Secretly Building Bunkers
Roy's doomsday scenario is a lone actor jailbreaking a model to develop weapons of mass destruction; he says he isn't building a bunker himself, then reflects on how normal the young AI billionaires he's met actually are.
37:55 – 42:40
14 · Why We Might Be in a Simulation Right Now
Roy says he believes he's the main character of a simulation built for an audience, and claims he thinks about AI more than religious devotees think about their god.
42:40 – 46:00
15 · What Are the Spiritual Downsides of Choosing to Be Poor
Roy frames his personal spiritualism around primal biological desires, and compares choosing to be poor today to a caveman choosing not to hunt.
46:00 – 48:30
16 · How Clavicular Changes the Way Companies Think About Viral Content
Roy ties Clavicular's black-pill marketing back to Trump 2016 and Nick Fuentes: the social algorithm rewards whoever is most controversial, and he says he baited Columbia into expelling him for the same reason.
48:30 – 50:35
17 · Roy Lee Gives Advice to People Who Could Be Replaced by AI
For a 45-year-old just replaced by AI, Roy's advice is to find a personal win first, then use AI to look for the next opportunity, whether that's a new app or going all-in on an existing trade.
50:35 – 51:10
18 · What's the Hardest Thing Men Learn About Life Too Late in Life?
Roy's answer: life is simple, most people spend it chasing games invented by other people instead of the things they actually wanted as kids.
51:10 – 56:15
19 · How to Make Sure Your Name Is Never Forgotten in History?
Roy's plan is to accumulate more capital than anyone else, reach a 'terminal velocity of capital,' then redirect it into the biggest markets in the world; he admits his 80-year-old self will likely regret something about how he got there.
56:15 – 58:30
20 · Roy Lee Opens Up About The Pharmaceuticals He Takes
Roy lists retatrutide, testosterone, Anavar, Winstrol, and clenbuterol among substances he's taken in pursuit of his goals, and closes with his Instagram, Twitter, and Cluely.com.
Atomic Insights
Lines worth screenshotting.
The fastest AI money right now isn't building AI products, it's selling AI-made output (video ads, apps, websites) to the huge number of companies that haven't caught up to how good AI already is.
A free AI video ad sent daily to 100 venture-backed companies, converted into a handful of $10,000-a-month retainers, is presented as a concrete path to $1M in six months.
A $100M+ AI startup can run seven products that each earn over $1M a year with just two full-time engineers, because coding models have closed the gap between novice and senior engineers.
The only skill needed to make a compelling AI video ad is the ability to tell whether something is boring, a sense sharpened by years of scrolling social media, not by production experience.
Marketing agencies already subcontract 14-year-olds to make AI ads and resell them to companies, and LinkedIn ghostwriting agencies sell fully AI-generated posts without disclosing it.
The guest estimates 15% of today's college graduates will never find a job, and thinks that number could climb past 90% within five years as AI absorbs blue-collar and entry-level work.
Marketing doesn't scale the way other business functions do. There's a fixed number of eyeballs in the world, so an agency's real product is being first to capture attention, not being more efficient.
AI gets close to zero blame for male loneliness in this telling. COVID and social media get the blame for collapsing in-person socializing, years before AI companionship apps existed.
An AI girlfriend is, in the guest's view, better than no girlfriend for men who are already isolated, because telling them to 'just talk to real women' won't work on someone who hasn't left the house in years.
The most viewed podcasts and the most viral marketing campaigns share one mechanic: whoever is willing to push the most controversial button rises fastest on the social algorithm, regardless of the quality of their ideas.
Public fear that AI will 'delete us all' is framed as a benefit to AI application-layer companies, since every day spent protesting a lab is a day their product isn't replaced by that lab's next model.
The guest says he thinks about AI more than religious devotees think about their god, and treats that level of obsession as the real edge separating him from other founders.
Getting rich is framed as requiring less luck than ever: a kid can ask AI how to make money, get a viable plan back, and automate every step except sitting in front of the video tool itself.
The billionaires he's met are described as unremarkable, normal people who happened to pick the right field early and get lucky inside a company that's five years old or less, not visibly exceptional individuals.
Takeaway
The money is in selling AI's output, not building AI itself.
WHAT TO LEARN
The fastest AI money right now goes to whoever sells AI-made value to the people who haven't caught up yet, not to whoever builds the flashiest AI product.
01What Are the 3 AI Gold Rushes of 2026?
The three overlooked AI money lanes named here are AI video ad agencies, AI app-building and marketing, and infrastructure work that serves the AI labs directly.
Most companies in the world today haven't tapped into how good AI already is, which is the actual opportunity, not any particular tool or model.
02Why AI Videos Are Extremely Profitable
The full playbook: make a free ad with an AI video tool for 100 funded startups, email it daily, and convert the ones that perform into $10,000-a-month retainers.
Sixteen retainer clients at $10K a month clears roughly $1M inside six months, the guest's own math for the challenge.
03Roy Lee Explains Why Getting Rich Is Simple in 2026
AI removes many of the historical barriers, birthplace, family wealth, inherited trade, that used to gate who could get rich.
The only remaining gap is between people who ask AI for a plan and actually try it, and people who don't.
04Why AI Is Making Entry Level Jobs Obsolete
The guest estimates 15% of today's college grads will never find work, a number he expects to climb sharply as AI absorbs more entry-level tasks.
Founders are increasingly automating roles before they ever hire for them, changing what an early career path looks like.
05Roy Lee Explains Why Companies Aren't Investing in AI Videos
A shockingly small engineering team paired with a large, performance-paid creator network is presented as the structure most companies haven't copied yet.
Marketing is framed as zero-sum, a fixed pool of attention, which is why being first to capture it matters more than optimizing for efficiency.
07Why Most College Graduates Can't Find Jobs After College
Even elite-university students are described as unemployable in the guest's direct hiring experience, regardless of credentials.
His five-year estimate for unemployable graduates climbs above 90%, framed as a reason to build income skills outside the traditional degree path.
08Has AI Made Men Lonelier?
AI is assigned close to zero blame for male loneliness in this account, COVID and social media get that blame instead.
The isolation problem predates widespread AI companionship apps, which matters for anyone diagnosing the cause before reaching for a fix.
09Why Men Are Turning to AI Girlfriends in 2026
AI companion apps are framed as small next to social media's scale, even at Character AI's reported $100M+ run rate.
Dating apps are described as concentrating attention on a narrow slice of men, which the guest ties directly to why some men give up on approaching people at all.
10Roy Lee Explains Why Some Men Need AI Girlfriends
Generic advice to 'just approach real women' is framed as ineffective for men who have been isolated for years, since it ignores how entrenched the behavior pattern is.
An AI girlfriend is framed as harm reduction rather than a solution, better than isolation, not a substitute for addressing the isolation itself.
11How Would Roy Lee Used Fable 5 If He Had No Restrictions
Given unrestricted access, the guest says he'd point the model at curing cancer and let it run indefinitely, rather than testing its darker limits.
He says he rarely hits safety limits because his actual day-to-day use is ordinary software development, not adversarial testing.
12Why AI Companies Say AI Will "Delete" Us All
Public doomer sentiment about AI is framed as commercially useful to companies built on top of the labs, since it slows the labs' own progress.
The claim that a lab's own safety ban may have been a manufactured valuation event is offered as speculation, not confirmed fact.
13Roy Lee Explains Why AI Billionaires Are Secretly Building Bunkers
The doomsday scenario described is a single bad actor jailbreaking a capable model to develop weapons, not the models acting on their own.
The young AI billionaires he's met are described as ordinary, not exceptional, which reframes 'being rich' as more about timing and field choice than raw talent.
14Why We Might Be in a Simulation Right Now
The guest frames his own improbable success as evidence he might be the 'main character' of a simulation, a personal narrative device more than an argued position.
He compares the intensity of his own AI engagement to religious devotion, framing obsession itself as a competitive edge.
15What Are the Spiritual Downsides of Choosing to Be Poor
His personal framework ties meaning to biological and tribal duties, working, competing, providing, over any conventional spiritual or religious framing.
Choosing not to pursue money is equated to a caveman refusing to hunt, a stark frame for anyone questioning his hyper-competitive worldview.
16How Clavicular Changes the Way Companies Think About Viral Content
Controversial content wins the social algorithm regardless of the quality of the underlying ideas, a pattern he traces from Trump 2016 through Nick Fuentes to his own marketing.
His own origin story, publicly baiting Columbia into expelling him, is offered as proof he was willing to push a button no one else in tech would.
17Roy Lee Gives Advice to People Who Could Be Replaced by AI
His advice for someone replaced by AI is to find an emotional win first, then look for the next opportunity, whether that's a new venture or doubling down on an existing trade.
He explicitly says AI isn't the answer for everyone, someone already excellent at a hands-on trade should lean into that instead.
18What's the Hardest Thing Men Learn About Life Too Late in Life?
His closing framing is that most adult ambition is chasing games invented by other people, not what people actually wanted as kids.
19How to Make Sure Your Name Is Never Forgotten in History?
His stated life plan is to accumulate more capital than anyone else, then redirect that capital into the biggest markets once he hits a self-described 'terminal velocity.'
He openly predicts his 80-year-old self will regret some specific risk he's taking now, without knowing which one yet.
20Roy Lee Opens Up About The Pharmaceuticals He Takes
He lists retatrutide, testosterone, Anavar, Winstrol, and clenbuterol among substances used in pursuit of his goals, framing the physical risk as an accepted cost.
His closing stance is that he'll keep taking asymmetric risks because the upside, if it pans out, outweighs the downside he's already anticipating.
Glossary
Terms worth knowing.
Cluely
Roy Lee's AI startup, which went viral for marketing itself as a tool to cheat on job interviews and is described in this episode as valued around $120 million.
Fable
The AI model Roy Lee says he uses daily for coding and design work at Cluely, described as briefly banned by the US government before being re-released.
Seedance 2.5
The AI video generation tool recommended for making the free ads described in the episode's client-acquisition playbook.
Terminal velocity of capital
Roy Lee's term for the point at which someone has accumulated enough money to start investing it in the biggest available markets, rather than just building smaller businesses to get there.
Retatrutide
An injectable metabolic drug Roy Lee says had the most significant physical effect on him among the substances he's experimented with, alongside testosterone, Anavar, Winstrol, and clenbuterol.
“Email every single one of these companies every single day with the ad, telling them, I made this ad for you for free.”
the entire client-acquisition playbook in one sentence→ TikTok hook↗ Tweet quote
10:00
“The only difference between the version of you that has made the money and the version of you that is not is that the version of you that has made the money actually tried it.”
clean, quotable thesis on effort versus outcome→ IG reel cold open↗ Tweet quote
41:40
“I would say I worship AI more than any sort of religious deity.”
“All you ever wanted to do in life was exactly what you wanted to do as a kid, which is go outside, play with your friends.”
emotional closing line that lands with zero setup→ newsletter pull-quote↗ Tweet quote
Topic Map
Where the conversation goes.
00:00 – 14:05denseAI money-making playbook
16:25 – 17:40sparseSponsor read (PrizePicks)
17:40 – 31:15denseJobs, loneliness, and AI girlfriends
31:15 – 46:00steadyAI risk, simulation theory, and billionaires
46:00 – 58:30steadyAttention economy and personal philosophy
The Script
Word for word.
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What do you think are the three mini gold rushes happening inside AI right now that no one is talking about? Yeah.
I would say almost like
the last time I was on here, I said that the thing young people should be doing is building AI apps and marketing them. But I realize now that even that is too much work for the average person to do despite that being, like, like, a completely viable way to make her millions. I think AI video will spawn in a whole new era of labor for people to go out and make AI videos for companies, service marketing material, or just completely upend all social medias as we know it.
You know? Because really that, like, that the the the way the world happens today is Instagram Reels and TikTok functionally. This is where Mamdani gets gets made mayor of New York City.
This is where AOC becomes, like, one of the most famous politicians in America. This is where social media is where things happen, and AI video has the potential to completely upend social media. And the easiest, lowest ever thing that somebody can do to make their riches a sub gold rush of AI is just AI video.
Like, go out there and make AI videos, email a bunch of companies, here's a UGC video that I made for you that you made online, run this as an ad, if it's not profitable, then don't ever talk to me again. But if it is profitable, then put me on a retainer for $3,000 a month, and I'll continue to make you AI ads just like this.
And you can literally sit there and just fucking type in AI some some some bullshit with a million typos and, like, make an make an ad for this company. More broadly, though, I would say the the way to make money with AI today is to capture the value of people who do not know how good AI is right now.
There are so many companies like this, so many people like this. In fact, I would say 99.9% of companies in the world today are like this.
They have the opportunity to use AI for something that they are not doing. And you, whether that's making ads for them because they're not tapping into AI video enough, whether that's making websites for them because, you know, they're they're they're not figuring that out enough, whether it's building AI apps and then selling that to the average consumer who doesn't know that they could buy code this themselves over a weekend, this is where you stand to make your money.
And there are so, so many ways to make millions of dollars doing this. There's so many people that I know who have made millions of dollars doing the most absurd things, building the most random apps, doing the doing the most random bullshit bullshit for for for different companies. There's marketing agencies that exist now that subcontract middle schoolers to make AI videos for them and then sell those as ads.
Like like, the the this exact process that I talked about, I'll make you a bunch of ads for your company. And rather than having, you know, like like an in house a a grand empire of 40 like like a huge building with 40 UGC creators and, like like, having to go through all all all that nonsense, literally just DM a bunch of 14 year old TikTokers online, have them make the ads, and and sell that to the company.
There's marketing agencies that exist like that today. There's marketing agencies that exist for LinkedIn ghostwriting where you don't do any of the ghostwriting. You just convince to someone that you you can make LinkedIn posts for them, and you just generate a bunch of AI random bullshit, and the person that you're selling to doesn't know at all that what what you just sent them is completely AI generated, you didn't even look at it.
You know? Like, for all they know, there's some fucking 45 year old who doesn't even know what fucking ChatuchPety is. There's so many people making money in so many different ways.
And if you had to ask me, you know, like like, the three subcategories, I'd say that the the highest level, if you are the most competent and and and smartest person watching this video, then you probably wanna do something that serves the AI labs.
You build a company around whether it's, you know, providing them data, you know, build building infrastructure for for for for them to run their run their models on, trying to develop some some some some some sort of thing that will slightly improve the efficiency of some data chip of of of of of of some chip or GPU. Anything in that in that field, it's ripe.
It's it's the VC money is is is is flowing in that field, like, truly billions, multiple billions to be made there. If you want to build an app, you know, you can you can you you you can go out and build apps. If you're not interested in in taking a swing at that level, you can build an app.
You can market it. It's never been easier to build before. It's never been easier to market before, and you can market it with an AI influencer.
Can You build an app in an afternoon, get it approved by the app store in the next three days, and you can market it entirely with AI influencers. And in theory, this is all possible. It's possible for you to spawn in a million dollars in a week.
You can do that. You can just go on some AI video platform and just figure out, like, okay. Here's a UGC video that I think would be funny.
Send it to any company and be on a retainer and just make 10 k a month doing that. There are there's there's there's just so much so much so much money to be made at so many different levels. Me personally, this it makes me wanna go back to every podcast I've done and every podcast I've seen about how to make money with social media and just apply it to AI video specifically, because there's a million different ways people have made money with videos on social media, like
YouTube agencies that, like, sell ads for creators, and there's, like, long form content, there's short form content, there's audio content, there's transcribing the videos into other languages Exactly. You can make AI videos in other countries. So a lot of stuff like that.
There's Facebook ads, usually see content like you said. But if we let's try to distill this down to make it super accessible, and you can take your time on this one.
If you had to go from 0 to $1,000,000 in six months with AI video, how would you do it?
Step one, search up Cdance 2.5, find any provider. Step two, find a 100 software companies who have raised over $10,000,000 of venture capital.
Step three, for every single one of them, make a compelling ad, an ad that you think you would watch on social media yourself using CDance 2.5. Step four, email every single one of these companies every single day with the ad, telling them, I made this ad for you for free.
Go run it as an ad. If it's profitable, put me on a retainer. I'll make you more ads.
If this ad performs for you, pay me $10,000 a month. I will make you more ads just like this, and I guarantee I'll make you money. If it's not profitable, completely ignore this email.
Never talk to me again, but I made this for you for free. Email them that same thing every single day until they respond. Step five, uh, repeat this eight times, and, uh, you have eight clients paying you $10,000 a month, and over a year, you make a million dollars.
I guess six months. So, sure, repeat it 16 times. Get 16 companies to to sign this off.
By the way, this is something that I would sign off on. That
would work. I ask people this question a lot. That would work, though.
Damn. And then just any one bit of advice to add to that on how to make good AI ads?
If you are young and interested in making money, one of the only advantages that you have because realistically, on average, you're stupider than the generations before you.
On average, there's more competitors out there in the space of entrepreneurship than ever before. And, uh, one of your only skills that you have is the skill that you spent the last fourteen years of your life doomscrolling eight hours a day on TikTok or Instagram Reels or YouTube Shorts or YouTube Kids. And there is actually a way to use that to your advantage, which is you have the unique ability well, I would say even most people watching this video, and I I I really think the average person watching any video online is some fucking hearted farmer in Kansas that is going to be incapable of doing anything that requires any sort of cognitive ability at all, but genuinely for the average person watching this video, it is possible for them to look at a video and say, this is boring or this is not.
And that is the only skill that you need to make compelling AI ads or compelling AI videos that will actually work. Because what surprises me almost every single week at least once a week I have an instance of this surprising me is these 40 year old boomers on Facebook do not understand what's boring. They will genuinely read the most AI slop bullshit ever, the the the the the most disgustingly em dash filled essay ever, and they'll send it to their grandkids, be like, you should read this.
This was inspiring to me. These people genuinely do not have that sense that you develop over years of, you know, scrolling. And you're a young guy watching the video.
You're a young young person watching the video. Like, that sense is the genuinely, the only thing you need to sit down in front of CDN 2.5 and keep prompting something over and over until you get something that you think is funny. Because if you think it's funny, as a 14 year old who doom scrolls, other other 14 year olds will will will will find it funny, and you will you you you will have had a video that the the 40 year old on Facebook would just never ever ever have been able to make.
I
think that's great advice. Yeah. And I'm realizing now you can also just look up a company, go to their Facebook ads, meta library, whatever, see their longest running ad,
and then remake it with Cdance. Of course. Yes.
And and and sell to competitors.
This is this is good stuff, Roy. I mean, do you think getting rich is just painfully simple in 2026?
If this were the eighteen hundreds and you wanted to get rich, first of all, you have to pray that you're born in America. Second of all, you have to pray your ass is not black. Second of all or third of all, you gotta pray that, you know, your family has the money to send you to college.
Fourth of all, you you you you you gotta pray that, you know, like, you're not fucking doomed to be some coal miner for the rest of your life because your your father was and your grandfather was before you, and they don't know anything outside of that, and they would fucking beat you and and and kick you out of the house if if you weren't gonna be gonna participate in the coal mining industry.
There are so many loopholes that you had to go through that are literally just chanced by genetic lottery. Right now, it is true. It is objectively true.
There are more young millionaires now than ever. You could have got lucky on some fucking crypto coin back in, you know, like four years ago, and you wouldn't have even had to be 18 years old. You could have fucking KYC'd using your mom's identity.
You could have put $20 in it, you could have fucking flipped this $20 into millions of dollars, and there genuinely are 14, 15, 16 year olds that have done this before. And perhaps not painfully easy, but getting rich right now compared to the 18 hundreds is both painfully easy and is painfully simple.
You have the entire knowledge of humanity essentially at your fingertips at your fingertips, not just with the Internet, but with AI. Because I guarantee you, if you ask AI, can I make $10,000 this month? The AI will come up with at least one solution that is somewhat viable.
And the only difference between the version of you that has made the money and the version of you that is not is that the version of you that has made the money actually tried it. And this is just such a different thing than it was back in the day where if you didn't start the fucking carpentry business that your entire village relied on, then you weren't making it out.
Like, genuinely, you can just type the right buttons on your laptop and you will become rich and there's an infinite wealth of advice waiting for you that you don't even have to fucking watch anymore because you can just ask AI to summarize the videos for you and it will genuinely tell you the correct things to do. A kid online could, entirely in chattybt.com, have found this video by searching what are, you know, like, the the the the the recent videos on how to get rich with AI, summarize the video, figure out how to how to perform the steps of the video, set up an automation to do every step except sitting in front of Cdance 2.5 and waiting for, you know, like like like the the the good the good videos to come out.
And you could have done this all on chattybt.com with fucking, like, a week's worth of time.
And I I just truly don't understand how in any point in in in in in human history, it could have been more more easy. The ways to get rich are, like, uncountable.
The ease of of of most of these methods are uncountable, and and the average laziness of your competitors is just higher than it's ever been before. If if you're just not rich right now or you're not very close to getting rich or you're not trying something that has a very good chance of of making you rich, then I genuinely would say you're seems like you don't wanna get rich, buddy.
Yeah.
And I'll just say as a challenge to the viewers, if you can make a viral video with me and Roy at this podcast table right now, can just be any part of the conversation. Just use Cdance 2.5 and it send you a thousand dollars if it gets, what, a 100,000 views?
Million views? Sure. Million views.
Million views. I'll send him a thousand dollars. I wanna ask, are you hiring a lot of people at your startup right now?
Because I'm curious, like, if AI's kind of making founders think differently and not wanting to hire people, but just figure out how to automate it before we need to hire them. Does that make sense? Yeah.
I I really think that the way we operate the company right now is very different from any company that I've seen. Um, and
the the way that it's it's most similar to other companies right now but different from, you know, established companies is that we have a shockingly small amount of engineers. There are two full time engineers that work at the company, and, uh, this is, I would say, the average amount of engineers that I see at most series a seed stage startups.
These startups with, you know, products that you've heard of, that you use, have a shockingly small amount of engineers because it just doesn't take that much. You can write the same quality of code now with a completely novice engineer, honestly, as you could have with with a completely senior engineer just because the coding models have gotten that good.
So I would say, firstly, we have a very shockingly small number of engineers, and it it it is a team that I'm not super interested in growing. Um, second, I would say we have a very large product suite, and I would say this is something that we do that I don't see other companies doing. We operate with, uh, at this point, there's seven software products that exist under the Cluelly corporate entity, and one of them is the Cluelly desktop app.
There's seven products that are maintained by two engineers, and almost every single one of these products makes over $1,000,000 a year. And it is crazy that, uh, we are allowed to do this because now, you really, you're able to spin up a product that would have otherwise taken three months to six months to develop with a team of 20 engineers.
You can do this in the free time of the afternoon of an engineer today. And this is something that I don't see other people doing.
I I think even even right, like, right now, there's so much value to be captured in the people that don't understand you can one shot these apps, are not willing to one shot the apps. Uh, there there's competitors that aren't willing to aren't willing to compete with you because they're so single focused on their own product that I I I think people don't actually realize, like, you could just spin up seven products that can make you a lot of money if marketed correctly.
We we could probably do fucking 20. The third way I think we're different from other companies is that we hire a an astonishingly high number of creators. We have, at this point, you know, and this role really did not exist five, ten years ago, but we have creators on retainer that we pay for the performance of their videos.
You know, you make ads for us. If the ads do well, you get paid. And at this point, we have, I wanna say, over a thousand people that we hire in this sort of capacity that are just making videos for us, and if the videos do well as ads, then you get paid.
And we probably have the capacity to hire 10,000 more. If there's 10,000 good creators that make profitable ads for you, then why would you not you you could hire fucking a 100 you could hire a million creators to do this as long as the ads keep working. I think this is something that I don't see other companies doing.
They have not Most people just are not willing to tap into the power of creative quantity, which is something that I think we've always been forward in. The average creator at your company are
they more interested in this AI video content creation than making the videos themselves? Like, what are creators saying about it? Or are you just finding a different series of people to create that AI type of content?
This is something relatively new we're trying. The a the AI video stuff we've gotten into over the past month or two, and it's largely been internal with, like, with, like, p p people that we have house at the company. The thing is other companies are so far behind in advertising and marketing material, they haven't even tapped into the idea that you can hire a 100 creators to make organic UGC videos where they're just talking to the camera and that'll create ads for you.
Like, most companies are not doing this, much less trying to invest in a thousand different AI TikTok accounts to see which which of these can can generate a viral trend a viral trend. Right now, there is so much money to be made and, you know, like, much low hanging fruit for us from literally just, you know, having creators make content for us organically.
Do you have a b to b consulting side where you offer that as a service to It's a super niche opinion I have, but I think marketing is just one of those things that doesn't really scale. Ultimately, there are only so many eyeballs on the Internet.
You know? There there there really are only 7,000,000,000 people in the world, and and even within any sector, there's like if if if you wanna be the marketing studio, if wanna you be the the the the marketing guys that a toilet paper brand can come to, surely, this toilet paper company could not come to you as long as as as as well as all of their competitors.
Surely, not every single one of them could come to you and expect proper returns. You know? Like like, at the end of the day, marketing is sort of a a a zero sum game where where there's the fixed share of people, fixed share of eyeballs, and you have to be sort of the the the first to capture attention, eyeballs, interesting, like, com compelling videos.
You you gotta you gotta be be the first as opposed to all of your competitors, and and and it's it's it's not one of those things. Like, for example, payroll, If you if I develop a more efficient process for payroll, then everybody can can enjoy, you know, the extra five hours that they have to spend on figuring out payroll.
But for marketing, it it really is not like that. Marketing is one of those zero sum things where you have to be strictly better than your competitors, and and it's not that everybody can just, you know, enjoy an increasingly larger pie. Ultimately, it's not that if there if if ads become 10 times as good tomorrow, the consumer is not going to spend 10 times as much.
There's a a a fixed budget for consumer spending, and the only thing that changes is how it's distributed. So, you know, I really don't think that there's a generational company to be built out of doing a, like, b to b marketing consultancy. But Quick question.
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But anyway, guys, back to the podcast. The school year has just started.
20,000,000 students are enrolled in college. How many kids graduating college this year will never find a job? There's an exact number for this online, but I wouldn't be surprised if this number was anything around, like, even 40%.
Like, I really would not be surprised if was one in two, one in three college graduates couldn't find a job. I think increasingly, there's less jobs for people. I guess, I mean, like,
a lot of people talk about the idea of, like, them not being able to get a job out of college. But, like, do you think some people will just never have a job?
Of course, some people. That that's a question I haven't thought of.
But the more I think about it right now, the more I realize, like, there's probably a huge group of people like this. Some motherfuckers I know in college are and I I went I went to Columbia for for for a little while, so I some of the smartest motherfuckers at Ivy Leagues are the laziest, most incompetent piece of shit ever, and I would never ever I wouldn't hire them to fucking shine my shoes.
Like, this motherfucker will stay in bed, Doom Scroll, if it's shine my shoes at eight at at 8AM. This guy's not pulling up till fucking 10PM. So I I have pretty low faith in the college graduates of today, and if I had to put a number on the college graduate the amount the percentage of college graduates who would never find a job in their life, I wouldn't be surprised if it was something like 15
How about five years from now? What do you think that'll be?
Five years ago, we didn't have Chatuchiki, and today, Chatuchiki can functionally do the work of almost all blue collar labor. So if you had to extrapolate five years from now, then actually the number of college students who won't be able to find a job is that That's that that number is probably upwards of 90 upwards of 90%, I would say.
So for the average kid today, would you advise them to drop out of high school? That's the only reason to stay in high school is to enjoy the the social life of high school.
I think even if it were the case that you told me humanity is going to be extinct in five years, the economy will collapse, and everybody is going to be plugged into this matrix type simulation that is going to feed us a a a a consciousness that that that feed feed us a reality that that is not the reality we experience, but, you know, like an optimized version.
Even if he told me that was going to be the reality of the world in five years, I would still tell high schoolers to stay in school because, ultimately, I think humans at our core, we are primal creatures. We are driven by biological desires, like sex, socializing, and and friends, and and and and truly being being lonely is one of the worst feelings in the world.
When I graduated high school or after I graduated high school, I took a year, and that entire year, I spent my mom's house in in my parents' house, and I did not meet a single person in this entire year. And this was just one of the most brutal, worst experiences of my life. I've been poor.
I've been I've been, like, canceled online. I've been I've I've been shat on for so many things, and and then there there there is just no period in my life that was ever more painful than me sitting in complete isolation. And I think the risk with dropping out of high school, even if you could make millions of dollars, there are the majority of people won't.
The majority of people are going to drop out of high school and live lives of complete and total isolation, and I think this is the worst fate that you could ever doom a human to. I think when when you're in high school, you have the chance to be in a place where, you know, like, you're kinda forced to socialize with other people.
And if you wanna start a business in high school, you can. You can do it. You you you you can do it in your free time outside of high school, but I really think loneliness is one of those things that is just the worst possible human experience.
Yeah. There are guys listening to this podcast right now that literally haven't had a meaningful conversation with another person in weeks. Their entire social life is online.
Do you think AI is making men lonelier?
Certainly not. I think this is a I think COVID did a lot of damage to society, and it forced everyone inside, forced everyone not to talk with each other.
And I think the the the the this is one of this is actually one of the reasons why I think the college environment is just not what it used to be. What used to be college was, you know, like a very bustling, very social place. You know, there's a campus.
There's there there there there's a commons, and you would go out and you'd able to talk to people your age. But nowadays, you ask about anybody's college experience, at least to the people that I've met.
You know? Like, they have a core group of friends that they met at orientation and maybe three or four friends, and that's all the people they really ever talk to during during their entire college experience because people are glued to their phones. And I don't know if AI has made people more glued to their phones.
In fact, I would say AI is probably one of the least contributing factors to this. This is really just social media plus COVID did irrep irreparable damage to to to society, made people content, and normalized the fact that you're never gonna talk to anyone.
You can just was so that I could spend my days taken around with my closest friends who are in my age group doing things together with them and building things with them rather than working under some fucking 30 year old Indian manager who I'm never gonna have a single thing in common with. Like, the socializing is is, I would say, the single most core part of human experience, and and the thing that took it away from us is social media and and and and COVID.
I would say AI has honestly, I would say AI has zero to no factor in in in contributing to to male loneliness. If if if if there or or or just just just just loneliness as a society, I think everything can be traced back to or at least the eighty twenty of all of this can be traced back to COVID and social media.
But I do think it's it's probably that is probably one of the biggest problems of our generation.
That's an interesting take. I want to ask in the ways that some people claim that AI is leading to loneliness.
There are guys right now paying $20 a month for some type of AI girlfriend app, talking to it every day, telling it things that they've never told a real person.
Many of these apps print. They make a lot of money, have millions of users, but why do you think men are turning to AI girlfriends in 2026?
I'll say these apps print. One of the biggest ones is Character AI. You know, in in in record time, they shattered through a $100,000,000 of annual revenue run rate.
If you look at the actual, you know, like, the actual world and and a $100,000,000 of paid users sounds like a lot of users. You look at the actual world, you know, Facebook makes $54,000,000,000 a year.
It's it's it's it's completely like like AI girlfriends and and AI companions. It might seem like a big thing in the media, but it really is completely dwarfed by the the the presence of social media. But to to to answer your actual question, why are men turning to AI girlfriends?
I mean, what is it? Fifty percent of men from 18 to 30 haven't had sex in the last year? And how are you supposed to have sex when you are how are you supposed to talk to a girl when all you know how to do is fucking look down at your phone and not talk to anybody all day?
The if you go a modern college campus now looks so different than it did ten years ago, ten, twenty years ago. You look at videos of colleges and high school from, like, fucking 1919 like, the the nineteen hundreds, like, two thousands.
People are talking. People are communicating with each other. You go to college right now.
You walk around. People are glued to their phones. They're not talking to each other, and and and the rate that they are talking to each other is infinitely smaller.
There's really no way to meet people outside of, like, dating apps now. I I I believe now now it's like dating apps are the most common common way you way way way people meet their partners right now.
And, you know, there's a million problems with dating apps that but but the the most primary problem is this is not how humans are meant to interact with each other.
And What problem were you thinking about? I mean, of course, it's like, you know, if all you can do is look at a picture of someone, then all you're going to be attracted to is their physical features.
And this is why in in sales and, like, like, Luxmaxxing and the black pill is so huge. It's just like, if I'm a girl believe me. If I was a girl, I would only be swiping on fucking six foot four, two hundred pound fucking quarterbacks because, like, those would be the guys sending me likes.
So, you know, like, like, the the like, what what is it? 20% of, you know, like like the the the there's there's some there's some crazy statistics. Like, 10% of guys receive, like, 90% of likes or something, like, the brutal high cutoffs.
I think dating apps are, you know, like, this is just not how reality was. The reality of the world was that when you were back in the village, you know, like, and you were some fucking five foot six lumberjack, you know, like like, the prettiest girl in the village would would have just, like, thought, you know, like, fuck it.
Like I I like this guy is better than the other fucking four dopes in my high school class, so I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm a get with this guy. You know?
And there's there's, like, a relatively consistent pairwise bonding of of of mates. You know?
Like, a girl and a guy would get together because they were the one of only 10 girls and guys in their village at the time. And now it's just like, you know, like, social media has made has extremified and exaggerated everything, and now girls are walking around with fucking double f cups because they think that's that's that's what the guys want.
And guys are walking around, you know, like spending all their moneys on on on luxury cars and the warp because that's what they think girls want. You girls are getting flown out by basketball players. Guys just think every every single guy around them is some six for four chat, and they're demotivated.
They don't wanna talk to girls. In almost every single way, social media has made it harder and, you know, like, has made people less willing to go out and talk to someone.
If I was living in the fucking nineteen fifties and I knew the only people I had to compete with if I wanted the popular girl was the fucking quarterback, then I feel pretty good. If I knew I was competing with god damn Shaquille O'Neal, then, you know, like, maybe maybe I'd throw in the towel, maybe I'd hit up character ad, and maybe I'd sort up an AI girlfriend too.
Do you think an AI girlfriend is better than no girlfriend? That's an interesting question. Honestly, it this is this is probably a very unpopular opinion, but I'd say probably yes, only because I believe that AI is here to stay, not going anywhere, and the hope is that, you know, like like, the the reality the present day is bleak.
These guys who don't have girlfriends right now, it's not like they're magically gonna watch some fucking motivational speech tomorrow and just go randomly find a find find a nice girl and settle down with her. At this point, you know, like like, their their lives are going one direction and people just don't have this the the this willingness to change that much.
So realistically, a lot of these people who are virgins and don't have sex right now are just going to continue to be virgins, not have sex in the future, and, you know, like, saying, ah, just don't don't get the AI girlfriend. Just keep approaching women.
Like, this advice is just not gonna work on them when you've been fucking, like, trapped in your parents' house. You've been in need for the last ten years, haven't fucking kissed kissed a girl your entire life. Like, you're not gonna listen to that and suddenly, you know, oh, I guess today's the day I'm gonna go up and talk to a girl.
Like, that's just not how the world works. And, obviously, the the AI girlfriends of today are bleak, but my hope for the future is that, you know, one day AI gets good enough that and and hopefully, it only gets good enough to the point that it can coexist with humans and maybe the AI girlfriend can provide a perfect level of companionship.
May maybe all the AI girlfriend does may may may may be a much smarter, better AI girlfriend. My my hope is that that that AI girlfriend tells the guy, here's people like you that that that that wanna meet you.
You know? Like, here's an event in the area. You you should go meet them.
May may encourage them to socialize, or maybe it just replaces the the human function of of of of socializing entirely. But in the complete present day, is it better for some guy, some 30 year old who's never held a girl's hand to have an AI girlfriend over a real life physical girlfriend?
I would say, honestly, even in that case, probably yes. That guy is not gonna get better. And to restrict him of a joy when you know he's not gonna get better, I think that that that honestly is just more cruel than, you know, letting him have the the the small pleasure that he might derive from the girlfriend.
That's interesting. It's kinda like, would you rather have someone be in, like, a relationship with an extremely evil human or, like, no human at all?
It's like there there's an argument for isolation being worse than, like, some level of connection. But I wanted to ask, if you had twenty four hours to use an unrestricted version of Fable, no safety filters, unlimited credits, what would you do with it?
I'll be completely honest. I think the safety team at Anthropic is doing a good job. I I don't really hit the safety limits as often as I hear some people online do.
In reality, like, we're not really developing bio tools. I would say try and develop a cure for cancer, and I would let it run indefinitely. And I would say do not stop until you do, and I would see what it comes up with.
But in reality, in my day to day, I mean, like, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm a software founder. I code software. This is kind of what Fable is built for, it's not like I'm I'm I'm coding malware.
So it's yeah. I I I really don't run into safety issues like this at all. If I was a particularly dangerous individual, then I'm sure I'd have a lot more to say, but, you know, I'm not I'm not What could you do if you were a dangerous individual?
Because the US government banned Fable when it initially came out for, I think it was two, three weeks, and then they re released it. You talked about bioweapons earlier and, like, developing bombs, that kind of thing. But why like, what's the difference in this model that makes it dangerous?
I mean, the the pure difference is the is, like, the the really, the only difference is the intelligence, and that that that sort of is the overwhelming difference between every single model, which is more capable than the other.
And right now, it just you know, for for some arbitrary reason, I think that I in in my opinion, arbitrary, the US government decided that Fable was dangerous enough that if hijacked, you could probably just tell it, like, slash goal, figure out how it can do the most damage to America, The United States Of America, it'll and come up with, you know, 10 very solid plans to to, you know, like like, do nuclear bomb level threats on America.
And I I have no doubt that Fable is capable of doing that without hallucinating because it's just more competent than the models that came before it. But I suspect that if you just had complete safety off and you had a version of, you know, ChatGPT 5.5, like, I I wouldn't tell you what the exact cutoff is for for for a model to be able to to do that with with, like and and and propose solutions with with with any degree of success.
But, I mean, Fable for sure could do it. For sure, unrestricted Fable slash goal, eliminate the Chinese from the world like, you know, JaiChan, China.
That's interesting.
Do you think AI companies benefit when there's sentiment online saying AI is going to kill us all?
For sure. There are AI companies that benefit. Definitely not all of them, but, you know, you have people marching outside OpenAI's door saying, you know, stop AI development right now this instant, and that's one less engineer that's working on developing the model that's gonna kill every other application layer company.
So for these application layer companies, like, they love it. You know? They they they might get a few eggs thrown at them in public, but, know, like, the grand scheme, who cares?
Like, it's a one extra day of revenue of of of of waiting before the models swallow up your so swallow up your product is, you know, for a lot of these companies, millions of dollars. So so all all the more power to them, and I'm I'm sure they love it.
I'm sure the the the Chinese companies building AI tools are having to time their lives, hearing about the protests happening outside the OpenAI office. Really, the only people that don't stand to benefit from this mass public disinterest in AI or or the people that that that are hurt by this the most are just, like, the leading AI providers.
And and in particular, would say OpenAI because that's Chatuchiki is really the thing that people know. Do you think they're hurt by it, though? Or, like, I would think that there might be an argument for it helping.
Like, imagine,
for example, you said to me, Jack, Clooley is gonna be the platform that kills the world. It's like, that'd be the one I'd probably invest in. You know what I mean?
Sure. Yeah. Have you thought about that argument and that maybe that sentiment itself is a SIOP?
Yeah. I mean, there there there's a lot of speculation online that maybe Anthropic had planted the the the whole government banning a fable and, you know, like like, just to pump out the valuation.
You know? Like, one day, I'll I'll be high enough high high high high up enough to to tell you definitively, or maybe I just won't speak to you at all. But, you know, like like, may like, maybe one day I'll I'll I'll I'll I'll know.
But in all honesty, I don't know. And and I really think in in a lot of this work like, a a a lot of this stuff going on is I I think a lot of the obvious stuff is definitely premeditated, but a lot of this stuff, you know, like, people just have no control over and and people don't don't really know what's going on.
It's just whatever, you know, whatever DJT feels like doing today is the the the the the top trending story of the news and the public sentiment of the So
Well, you've built a $100,000,000 AI company valued at and on the front lines of ever advancing AI. Other founders, CEOs, investors in your space, particularly billionaires like Zuckerberg, Altman, Thiel, are allegedly building bunkers in secret.
Why do you think AI billionaires are building bunkers?
I think, you know, the this is really, like, the most likely doomsday scenario for AI ending or causing human extinction is that, you know, someone figures out how to develop weapons of mass destruction, and that person is not, you know, like a like a national government who can be trusted with that sort of thing.
If if there is a if there is a national government who can be trusted with that sort of And they're just gonna you know, like, you're gonna have nukes in the backyard of some fucking Iranian crazy fucking Afghani terrorist and, you know, it's GG GG world. So in in that case, like, of course and all it takes is for one one persistent motherfucker to to jailbreak something like Fable and and have the persistence to actually go out and and and and the resources to develop something like that.
And in that case, really, is GG. Are you building a bunker? No.
Not not not at the moment. I think, yeah, I was just like, if if I gotta worry about the the fucking zombie apocalypse when, like, like, everyone's walking around, like, goddamn radiation pilled, like, I'd rather just die, bro.
It's a fair take.
You went from being a broke kid living in your parents' house, made your first dollar last year, and now I've been in rooms with a 16 z partners, LP summits in Vegas, billionaire group chats.
Is that right? Sure. What's one behavior that every billionaire you've met has in common?
I really think a lot of these people, especially nowadays, are are much more normal than you would think.
And I I really think there are so many paths to roam, in this case, roam being becoming a a a billionaire personally, that there just is no no no playbook for this sort of thing. You could become a billionaire, you know, by, like, starting your own crypto thing and and crook like, pro pro probably not actually starting your own cryptocurrency, but but you you you could have had a few lucky wins in the stock market and and and just been some sort of Warren Buffett type type billionaire.
In that case, like, you really wouldn't have needed to do anything. You wouldn't really have even needed to start a company on your own or have have have learned that particular skill. You could have just been a very smart and intelligent investor.
You could be a billionaire by starting an AI AI research lab of your own. In that case, you would need a completely different set of skills. I mean, of the people that I've met, I I I'd say most most most of the billionaires that I've met are are on the on the younger side, and they are, like, almost all AI billionaires.
And I would say for all of them, it's it's shocking how how how how normal they are. And it it makes sense too because these AI company the valuations of these AI companies have skyrocketed like we've never ever seen in history, and these billionaires are being minted within, you know, like, years of their companies companies forming, like, within five years of starting their company out of their dorm room.
You know? It's like billionaires are being minted out of thin air. And I would say, for these people, conversations I've had with them, they genuinely just seem like your normal college senior at you know, like like, they they have probably a cut of intelligence above them, but, you know, like, they're they're wearing the same t shirt.
It's it's not like some fucking secret $500 no no no brand t shirt. It's genuinely some Uniqlo t shirt. They're they're they're not shaving.
They clearly woke up. They got fucking drool in their mouths. They're talking about hoes.
And, you know, like, it's like, it's just at the end of day some some 24 year old kid.
That's fascinating. And you don't notice well, I guess that would be the claim that the one behavior is just actually doing shit.
Yeah. I mean, of course, you don't you don't you don't get to be a billionaire by sitting on your ass, but I would say there's so much money flowing in this world right now that if you pick the right space, you're a competent individual.
You pick you pick the right field in AI. You pick the right job. You pick the right company to build.
You could literally wake up, you know, in three months to a $400,000,000 contract from one of these research labs that just, you know, king makes you and just just just just billion billionaire makes you out of nowhere. And, really, all you did was, you know, be clever about where you shot at, what you did, and it there's just so much movement of money in the world in AI right now that all you have to do is get pretty lucky.
And perhaps this has been the case since, you know, like like, for for the entirety of the world that all you ever had to do was just pick the right field and get lucky, but I feel like this isn't true now more so than ever, and the timelines have been so compressed. It just doesn't take seven years of, you know, like, grueling pain to become a billionaire.
You know? Like, if you're really lucky, it might take fucking eight months.
You were talking earlier about this idea that we'd be plugged into a simulation of sorts or and a lot of people talk about this, like, idea of the matrix and how Neuralink links with AI, this kind of thing.
Do you believe we're currently in a simulation, and do you think we'll soon be in one if we're not already?
This is probably one of those crazy opinions that I have. My my current understanding of the world is that the way that things have gone for me in my life are so strange and so fortunate for me to be in the position that I am that I probably think I'm in some sort of game like the game Roy from Rick and Morty where I actually am the main character of some show that some alien is watching where he has just decided to spawn into my life all these blessings, it's shocking to me if I step back and think about it, why am I even how am I possibly in America when all the odds say I should be some fucking rural farmer in the in the rice villages of China?
How am I possibly, you know, like, how do I possibly have the intelligence that I have considering that that the the the the the regular expectation is that I'm some fucking reformer in Kansas? How do I possibly have the ability to, you know, like, build companies, and how is it even fucking work?
Like like, is it possible that my competition is this is is is this weak in the modern era? How is it possible that I'm just able to spawn in all these views on social media? I feel like the way that my events the the events in my life have turned out have just convinced me that I am built for greatness.
And I'm not just built for greatness, but I'm built to be, like, the human of all humans. And, you know, like, this definitely sounds like I have a god complex, and I'm I'm I'm a admit it.
I do. This is this is an understanding of the world that I've had since I was probably in the third grade, that I probably am the only real existing human or at the very least, you know you know, like, I I I am the main character of some show that some anime character's watching, some alien is watching, and it is my duty to give them the most entertaining show.
And if I were to be a bum, then it would just be, you know, like, what's the point? This is all just a game anyways.
So, yeah, I do I do believe I'm in a simulation. I wrote this down for you, and I cannot believe I'm even asking this question, but I it's a fair question. Do you think an AI god went back in time and chose you to be the person to bring it back into existence?
I don't think that's the case. You think it's the case for anyone alive today?
If there wasn't arguments we made for anyone, it'd be the big bro, Elon Musk. But, I mean, I don't really think that the simulation that I am in right now was generated by that of some AI god.
I I I just don't view it in that way. I think if you were to view, you know, like the end state of true recursive superintelligence, the most bull case of AI as being a consciousness, like, comparable to, you know, like, the Christian God.
I just don't think anybody would do that. I I I I I don't think people consider things like that. And for me, the simulation that I consider myself to be in is created by an entity similar to that of, a a religious deity.
I I feel like this is getting this is getting nuanced and just just falling into a a semantic thing, but I I I will say no. I don't I don't think the sole purpose of my existence is to further the development of AI.
For that reason alone, I will say no. Do you think AI is more worshiped
now than the Christian God?
Worshiped. I don't know if people are worshiping AI. I think there's people who
I guess if we define worship as actions oriented around number of times thought about throughout the day, level of importance associated with it.
Certainly. And in in in in that respect, I I would say I worship AI more than more than more than any sort of religious deity. I I don't believe in any religion at the moment, and the amount of times I think about AI is, like, almost every waking hour of my day.
Like, that's all I do at work is I just sit there and prompt prompt models to code and design for me. So, yes, I would say well, are there more people like me than there are religious devotees?
I would say the intensity of AI worshipers by the definition that you've given me is stronger than the intensity of or in the intensity and quantity of, you know, the most fanatic religious devotees. I don't think even priests think about God as much as some of these AI people think about AI, and I don't even consider myself, like, really one of those people, like, that are hugely engrossed in AI.
But, you know, I think about this every waking hour of the day. That's
fascinating. I mean, if you consider, like, the eschatology of all the religions and the number of people trying to bring about those various eschatology versus the eschatology of AI, which is super intelligence, recursive super intelligence specifically.
Like, there are there definitely seems to be more energy going toward that thing than like, I don't know, the four horsemen of the apocalypse in the bible. Of course. Yeah.
So that's that's an interesting take. What do you think are the spiritual effects of choosing to be poor?
I think I'm really not the guy to be talking about spiritualism or religion or, you know, like the the higher order meaning of life.
I think for me, I I really structure my life around my biological primal desires, and I think this is something that everybody wants to.
When you're a kid, the most fun you'll ever have is going outside and playing fucking make believe with your boys and playing in the dirt and, you know, like socializing. And when you're a teenager, the only thing you'll ever think about is, you know, like trying to trying to crack the popular girl in your school and the most fun you'll ever have is going on two minutes with your boys and, you know, like like socializing and and looking for sex.
And outside of that, maybe it's like some sort of competition with your with with with your boys. I've said this in the last podcast, and I've said this in every podcast I've ever been on to date.
I really think that the core essence of my being and the core meaning behind my existence is really just, you know, to to do the things that primarily we're designed to do, is live in these small tight knit communities, socialize almost every single hour of your day, work towards competitive goals like hunt hunt hunt hunting hunting big giant animals with with with your tribesmen.
The equivalent for that for me is working on this difficult company with my closest friends and, you know, like, have have having a girlfriend wife or, you know, if that falls through, you know, like a million baby mamas. But I really think, like, I am not someone who is grounded in the pursuit of spiritualism, the pursuit of some some religious ideal, some some some higher ideal.
Like, I I respect the people that are, but for me, I think life is very simple. We are biological creatures.
We our our entire brain circuits are designed around core biological desires, and I think we should just like, the best way to live life, the most fulfilling way to live life is to fulfill those desires and, you know, like, as as as as close of a way as possible to that as as as as close of a way that we can in the modern day.
In reality, I think the most fulfilling existence for me, if I were to say, like, my spiritual ideal would be to go back in time in fucking 2,000 BCE and live in a tribe with my boys in some fucking African village and just stick around and not have ever experienced technology or even fucking fire.
I think that is the most fulfilling experience a human can ever live, and I strive to like, my my version of spiritualism is trying to model my life to as close as that of the fucking caveman who could only fucking falter and grunt.
I think choosing to be poor nowadays and considering my my ground framework for, you know, like spiritual what spiritualism means to me, choosing to be poor is the equivalent of the caveman choosing not to hunt.
And I would say, you know, that is if you're a caveman and you're choosing not to hunt, like, what happens is you get presumably, you got banished from the fucking tribe and and you you you got left to die. So because you're not doing your your core duty.
If you're choosing to be poor in the modern day, you're choosing not to acquire resources for the betterment of your of your tribe and your close friends and family, then you are like, this is one of the most core biological principles of your life. You're failing to do that, and I would say, you know, your existence is probably meaningless,
brutal. Did the blueprint for what Clavicular did with the black pill and, like, his whole marketing thing change how you think about marketing startups?
I think Clavicular was an example of a a modern day trend in the attention economy that has gone as far that that goes as far back as, like, Donald J. Trump from 2016, and that is, in reality, the way the social media algorithms work is that the most controversial content goes to the top.
That's just how it is. So when you have Donald J. Trump, you know and and and people really don't care about the deeper meaning behind things.
People really don't care to fact check all of your arguments and see who's the more rational debater. DJT won in 2016 because, you know, like, he was the more outlandish person. He got on social media and people thought, you know, that that gave him the opportunity, the the the spotlight to to show, you know, even even, like, a fraction of his rationality.
And modern day people are so fucking and lazy and stupid that they'll never even think to to to to double check any of this, to to think about who might be the better leader. Know?
It's just like, well, I saw this guy and some of what he said resonated with me, I'm gonna vote for him. And the same thing you you see exactly the same thing happening with, like, Nick Fuentes. The reason why his his podcast was, at one point, would have been, like, the most viewed podcast in the entire world is because he was willing to, you know, like like, do the things that were controversial enough that put him on the top of the social media algorithms before anybody else.
And, sure, it might be the case that there is some better thought out right wing philosopher with this exact same ideals, but but but but but but was more it was, like, like, better spoken, more has even better ideas, you know, is is better thought out. But the reason Nick Fuentes gets the attention that he does is because he's willing to push the buttons that that that that ride into the top of the social media algorithm.
I think the the same is even true of myself. Like, I was the only one in probably all of tech at the time who was willing to push the buttons that I was that that that that that I did, and it generated me the millions of dollars that I'm making right now. Like like, this is something my my my whole story the the origin of my entire story is when I publicly used social media to bait Columbia University into kicking me out of the school.
And this is something that I probably think has never been done in the history of humanity. This has never been done. Someone intentionally baits an Ivy League school or any college for that matter to kick them out for the sake of marketing a company of theirs.
Like, this has just never been done. I was the only one in human history who's willing to push that button, and capitalism rewarded me as such. And I think the same is true.
Donald J. Trump, Nick Fuentes, Clavicular, Roy, I think these stories are all the same. Andrew Tate, these stories are all the same.
The people who are willing to push the button to get them to the top of the social media algorithm get to bring whatever rewards, uh, you know, like, attention gives them. And maybe the end reward is just attention, and, certainly, all of us have have gotten that in in in in in generous doses.
I'm
gonna test this one with you. If it's if it's not good, we'll just I might skip it. But I have a special segment for you.
I'm gonna give you a situation that someone is in, and I want you to give me a sentence for what each of them should do
Okay. To be successful in AI or just the world. To be successful in the world.
Okay. By by by my own metrics. Yeah.
Okay. A 45 year old accountant who just got replaced by AI. Who just got replaced by AI.
I would say your a simple sentence, reinvent your life from the ground up by chasing the women that you always wanted to chase and completely do something that upends your life.
And when you're in this moment of change of internal transformation, then go look online desperately for ways to make money online with AI.
Build an AI app that is based around your life experiences that you have, and try and market it with organic marketing. That that that is a lot of stuff. I I feel like a sentence is not sufficient for what I would tell this guy.
Right. In reality, what I would tell this guy is you are in a period of life where your past twenty three years of experience has has surmised to literally nothing, and at this point, what you need is you need to instead of being fucking depressed, you need to find a win. You need to find something that makes you happy, something that may may make makes you feel like you've accomplished something.
And in reality, if I ask any single 45 year old, I know that the thing that they would say their guilty pleasure, the thing that they've always wanted to do but weren't able is bang some 18 year olds. So go fucking try and do that. And and once you do that, once you're in that period of change, period of like, you know, like, fuck.
I just did something crazy that I've always wanted to do, that will genuinely give you, you know, like like, the the motivation that drive the confidence to be like, you know, maybe this new life won't be so bad after all. Maybe it was a blessing in disguise that I got to be replaced by AI. And in that state, that's when you'll be the most motivated, the most driven, the most focused, and most able to do the best work of your life.
So go out there and do the best work of your life. Well, that's AI starting a plumbing construction company. I wouldn't even recommend AI to be the place that anybody goes.
I don't know his exact life circumstances. If it turns out that this guy is the fucking goat at plumbing and knows 14 people with with with broken toilets, go be the fucking best plumber you can be. Just instill some change and look for look for an early win.
I love that. I I think we'll just skip the other people. I think that advice applies to all of them.
I want to give you the chance to reframe that idea a little differently. Sure. You might have a different take on this, but what do you think is the harshest truth men learn in life way too late?
Life really is that simple.
I think people spend all their life chasing games that were designed by other people, invented by other people, when in reality, all you ever wanted to do in life was exactly what you wanted to do as a kid, which is go outside, play with your friends, and run some two mans with your boys.
Got it.
At the end of every podcast, I ask people what the best piece of advice they've ever received was. I'll change it for you a bit.
Roy, how do you get so unbelievably ahead in life that everyone wants to have kids with you, everyone wants to be you, and your name is the last name uttered in all of human history?
Yeah. I'll tell you how I hope to do this because I haven't done this yet, but I think you've accurately described the life that I hope to achieve.
I think in the era that we're in the society that we're in, it is clear that, you know, capital is sort of the equivalent to power, influence, and fame. If you wanna achieve anything, you need the most amount of capital.
So I will accumulate the most amount of capital that I'll accumulate more capital than anybody else. And I will do that by figuring out the skills that I have that are five, six, seven standard deviations above the mean.
Right now, I believe that skill is in getting attention on social media, and I believe that this is a skill that no other businessman and no no no no other founder in the modern era who is striving to make as much money as I am also has. So I will build businesses revolving around this skill that I am uniquely good at, and I will consistently try to build businesses in the biggest opportunities that I think are possible.
I will not settle for a business that will only generate me $10,000,000 of profit in a year because I don't think that's enough to be the most capital accumulated man in the world. And once I've reached a certain terminal velocity of capital, I'm going to then use that capital to pursue not just the biggest markets for my unique superpower, my my my my unique abilities, I'm going to pursue the biggest markets in the world.
Right now, I think anybody can look at the look the world and realize that the biggest opportunity is in AI. But I don't have that terminal velocity of capital yet. So from now on, what I'm going to do, I'm going to build these businesses around the power and abilities that I've developed.
These businesses will then generate me enough capital to reach terminal velocity, at which point I will then further use that capital to invest in companies and build companies that are in the biggest markets in the world. Once I've done that and reached the pinpoint of capital, you know, like like the the the world's richest man, the the the the the whatever moniker is given for the man was won the game of society, which is, you know, capitalism, then I think I will have done it.
And the measures that I have taken to get to the top and the way that I've gotten to the top surely will be enough of a story for people to remember me in history. The challenge itself is worthy of a lifetime and will certainly take a lifetime.
And to get to that pinnacle, I think you will have needed to have lived a life worth everyone talking about.
And if you were speaking to the 80 year old version of yourself, maybe the one that has accomplished all the things that you just described, what do you suspect
he would warn you about right now when you're still chasing more? In my pursuit of truth and life optimization, I've certainly made many mistakes in life.
I've probably taken I've done, at this point, three or four surgical cosmetic surgeries to improve the way that I look. I spent tens of thousands of dollars on on clothes, and I burned almost all the money that I've had on trying to do things that would improve my life.
I've taken almost every drug under the sun, maybe not every drug under the sun, but I've taken a significant amount of drugs that have almost certainly had permanent have affected permanent health damage to me. I've done all this for the sake of improving my life and, know, reaching the top. I am hypercompetitive and I will do what it takes even if it means sacrificing forty five years of my life to do it.
I'm completely happy and content to die at 30 years old knowing that I have done the most that I could have in my life than to die at 80 years old happy and, you know, surrounded by a family and kids. I really think that I will do whatever it takes to win.
And I think in this journey, if I hit the age of 80, which I don't even know if I will, if I hit that age, almost certainly I will have made a very, very big mistake in this pursuit of asymmetric upside, in this pursuit of things that other people are unwilling to do, risks that I'm uniquely willing to take because I'm just more competitive and want to win more than other people.
It'll almost be something that I've done that result in permanent damage that I will just regret more than I will have wanted to win. And I think I really don't know what that is yet, but I'm certain the 80 year old me would know exactly what it is.
And maybe he's sitting there and his kidneys are dying because he took one too many steroids. Maybe he's sitting there and his fucking you know, you know, like like, may may may may be right at True Tide is not all that the all all that is cracked out to be, and this guy's fucking sitting there and his pee is pee is green.
Whatever it is, I'm sure he has he'll have something good to say to me. And for now, I really don't think, though, that the warning means much.
I'm I'm at the most ambitious, most competitive point in my life, and I I really will do whatever it takes to to to see the top of whatever ladder I'm climbing right now.
Have you talked too much about your steroid usage?
I've I've I've talked pretty publicly about, you know, like, different drugs that I've taken. What's most interesting drug you've taken that you haven't talked about? The most interesting drug that I've taken?
I will say the the drug with the most significant effects on me was definitely retrutide. Mhmm. It's a pretty common drug, though, but I've experimented with I've experimented with testosterone.
I've experimented with Anavar, Winstrel, calbuterol, clenbuterol. I tried I've tried all sorts of different things.
I've been on completely vegan diets. I've been on carnivore diets. I've been Have you done insem?
Insem? No. I haven't.
Like the patch? Oh, I I haven't. I haven't.
I I I don't smoke because I think smoking is smoking is gay. But but outside of that, I'm I'm and and and and and positive health benefits of all the muscle completely outweigh the negative consequence of the steroids, and you would never know unless you took it.
And and it's it's it's it's things like this that I'm just willing to do that other people are not willing to do. When I got my second paycheck, I gave my first paycheck to my mom, but when I got my second paycheck, I spent the entire thing on fake clothes from China. And to this day, I I I just, uh, am very willing to take financial, physical, any sort of risk at all, uh, if it means getting closer to the path to ascension.
And even now, I know that there's mistakes that I've made. I've I've taken risks that just didn't pan out, and I'm certain that by the time I'm 80, I will have made at least one big risk that will result in something that really seriously changes the trajectory of my life.
Even knowing that knowing that this this, like, that that that that that this path of constant coin flipping is going to end in some sort of demise, I won't stop because what if it all goes right?
Beautiful. Well, everyone, this has been your guest, Roy Lee. This is the Jack Neil podcast.
I appreciate you coming on. Where can people find you? On Instagram or Twitter, both I'm underscore Roy underscore Lee.
Perfect. And what's your company website? Cluely.com.
Awesome. See you guys. Thank you.
The Hook
The bait, then the rug-pull.
The host opens by asking for the three AI money-making opportunities nobody's talking about, and Cluely founder Roy Lee spends the next 58 minutes answering that, then everything else: AI girlfriends, simulation theory, and the health risks he's taking to win faster.
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A screen-share walkthrough of wiring a brand-aware Claude Code project to Higgsfield's AI models so Claude does the prompting, generates a full asset suite for a fictional energy drink brand, and reports back what each piece cost.
A former art director for Apple, PlayStation, and Nissan walks through the exact Claude Desktop workflow he'd use to go from zero to a paid $27 product in a single sitting.
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