1:53:02Cole Gordon · Interview
How to Fix Your Show Rates (Full 2 Hour Course)
Two operators sit on a white cyc for nearly two hours and take apart every place a booked sales call leaks before anyone dials in.
August 28thThe argument in one line.
Low-ticket ascension does not create better buyers; its only real edge is that front-end revenue liquidates ad spend and lowers net acquisition cost, while direct high ticket wins on simplicity and price anchoring.
Read if. Skip if.
READ IF YOU ARE…
- An info or coaching business owner running a call funnel who is watching ad costs climb toward 35-40% of collected cash and wondering if a low-ticket front end would fix it.
- A beginner deciding whether a first offer should be a $17-27 front end with order bumps or a direct application-and-booking funnel.
- A creator with a large organic audience trying to decide whether to monetize broke and wealthy followers with one funnel or two.
- A media buyer or funnel builder who wants the strongest version of each side's argument before recommending a model to a client.
SKIP IF…
- You want a verified case study with numbers on screen; the claims here are verbal anecdotes from people selling services in each model.
- You sell e-commerce products with no high-ticket back end; the whole debate assumes a coaching, consulting or info offer behind the funnel.
The full version, fast.
Two operators debate whether a business should sell high ticket directly through a call funnel or sell a $17-27 product first and ascend buyers. The low-ticket side argues the front end, three order bumps and a booked call can liquidate 30-100% of ad spend the same day, cutting net high-ticket acquisition cost in half and monetizing people who will never buy the expensive offer. Under pushback it concedes that cheap buyers are not statistically more likely to buy high ticket. The high-ticket side argues both models still need sales, a two-page funnel is far simpler, about 70 sales at $15,000 reaches $1M a month with three or four reps, and a $27 price anchors buyers low. The practical takeaway: pick low ticket for its cash-flow math, not its lead quality.
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Create a free account →Who's talking.
00:30hostCole Gordon
00:30guestJosh Gavin
00:42guestSpencer Vaughn
Where the time goes.
00:00 – 01:48
01 · Cold open and the seven questions
Debaters introduced: a low-ticket publisher who claims 1,000+ funnels and a CMO who has scaled call funnels to eight figures. Host lists the questions and the 1-or-2 comment vote.
01:48 – 09:01
02 · First $100K: the case for low ticket
The low-ticket call funnel: $17-27 front end, three order bumps, a VSL and a booked call. Argues same-day liquidation, higher show rates from paying buyers, and four-hour builds with AI tools.
09:01 – 16:55
03 · First $100K: the case for direct high ticket
Both models are call funnels, so sales must be learned either way. A two-page funnel builds in 15 minutes, and direct offers force the offer itself to get better. Rebuttal on beginners and direct-to-cart.
16:55 – 17:20
04 · Sponsor: SalesKick calendar
Host reads an ad for the SalesKick booking calendar, claiming 30-100% show-rate lifts.
17:20 – 26:25
05 · $1M a month: the liquidation math
CAC to LTV is everything. A $2,000 CPA on a $5,000 accountant offer dropped to $1,000 net after a low-ticket front end. Niches from back pain to B2B tool templates; creative volume is solved with AI and editors.
26:25 – 32:12
06 · $1M a month: simple scales
70 sales at $15K equals $1M with three or four reps. The $10,000 suit argument against ascension. DTA and VSL call funnels defined. Host raises the B2C P&L squeeze at 35-40% ad cost.
32:12 – 36:16
07 · Superhuman, positioning and the license reframe
Why a $4M-a-month B2C offer never needed low ticket, a host ad for one-on-one audits, then the low-ticket reply: position the front end for the back end, e.g. a $17 course renamed a license that fed $18-25K packages.
36:16 – 41:54
08 · Lead quality: price anchoring vs. the concession
High ticket calls buyer-leads-buy-more a lie and cites price anchoring. Low ticket concedes cheap buyers are not more likely to ascend and reframes everything as a financial model that monetizes the 98% who never buy.
41:54 – 47:37
09 · Back-end ascension, mid-ticket webinars and margins
Is a big back end better than a cheap front end? TAM argument, the call-funnel-sells-2K-then-10K hybrid, the industry drift to webinar-plus-upsell, financing and Base44 affiliate offers. Hormozi raised as a counterexample.
47:37 – 58:45
10 · Big organic audience
Call funnel wins per the high-ticket side; a 30M-follower creator's fear of needing 50 reps is answered with price-up-front pages, strict qualifiers, segmented email and small retargeting budgets. Low ticket counters with a trading streamer's $97 front end at 5% ascension.
58:45 – 59:38
11 · Sponsor: eight-figure mastermind
Host ad for his eight-figure boardroom mastermind.
59:38 – 1:06:05
12 · Which looks more like a grift
Young buyers see through call funnels and setters, says low ticket. High ticket answers that selling products nobody uses is the grift. Low ticket defends a $17 offer with a 365-day refund and phone support as proof of legitimacy.
1:06:05 – 1:09:58
13 · Closing arguments
High ticket: simplicity, price anchoring, and getting the buyer to the point with less friction. Low ticket: build the financial model first, the math never lies.
Lines worth screenshotting.
- The strongest argument for a low-ticket front end is not lead quality but liquidation: front-end revenue offsets ad spend so the same budget acquires more high-ticket buyers.
- Even the low-ticket advocate concedes that someone who buys a $17 product is not statistically more likely to buy a $10,000 one.
- Liquidating even 30% of ad spend at the front end lowers the net cost of every high-ticket client acquired behind it.
- One low-ticket call funnel cut a client's net high-ticket acquisition cost from $2,000 to $1,000 on a $5,000 offer.
- At $15,000 per sale, $1M a month is roughly 70 sales, which three or four closers can carry.
- A direct-to-application funnel is one landing page, an application and a calendar, and can be built in about 15 minutes.
- Low-ticket funnels sell sales calls too; the ascension still usually happens on the phone, so neither model escapes learning to sell.
- Setting the first price at $27 anchors the buyer low, which can make a $5,000 to $10,000 ascension harder rather than easier.
- Positioning decides lead quality in both models: renaming a $17 course a resellable license pulled in buyers who later bought $18-25K packages.
- A call funnel sends roughly 98% of paid clicks away with zero revenue, which is the cost low ticket is designed to recover.
- A big audience can throttle call volume through segmented email sends or small retargeting budgets instead of switching to low ticket.
- Call funnels at $400-700K a month often see ad cost climb to 35-40% of cash, which is where operators start adding a low-ticket front end.
- A $17 offer with a 365-day refund and a real support line can work as a cheap proof of legitimacy before any high-ticket pitch.
- Direct-to-cart offers at $5,000 can sell to cold traffic without a call when the front end already pays for the ads.
Choose low ticket for cash flow, not buyers
WHAT TO LEARN
A cheap front end does not create better high-ticket buyers; it only pays for ads, so judge it on liquidation math against the simplicity of selling direct.
02First $100K: the case for low ticket
- A $17-27 front end with three order bumps and a booked call is the simplest low-ticket ascension model; skip upsell chains until the core liquidates.
- Paying buyers tend to show up to calls more often than free applicants, which matters most in B2C where show rates are weak.
03First $100K: the case for direct high ticket
- Both models still end on a sales call for the expensive offer, so neither one lets you skip learning to sell.
- A direct-to-application funnel is one page, an application and a calendar, and forces the offer itself to be strong enough to sell.
05$1M a month: the liquidation math
- Net acquisition cost is ad spend minus front-end revenue; cutting a $2,000 CPA to $1,000 can double how much you can afford to spend.
- For B2B, a plug-and-play tool or template sells far better as a front end than a course nobody has time to watch.
06$1M a month: simple scales
- At $15,000 per sale, $1M a month is about 70 closes, which three or four reps can handle.
07Superhuman, positioning and the license reframe
- Positioning the front end for the back-end buyer, such as selling a resellable license instead of a course, decides who walks in.
08Lead quality: price anchoring vs. the concession
- Cheap buyers are not statistically more likely to ascend; a low-ticket front end earns its keep only through the money it recovers.
- The first price a buyer sees anchors what feels reasonable, so a $27 entry can make a $10,000 ask harder.
10Big organic audience
- A large audience can be fed into a call funnel gradually through price-up-front pages, email segments and small retargeting budgets.
- A low-ticket front end can monetize followers who will never afford the high-ticket offer, which pure exclusion funnels leave on the table.
12Which looks more like a grift
- A cheap offer with a long refund window and real support can prove legitimacy before any expensive pitch.
- Selling a product most buyers never open is the main grift risk of low ticket, so delivery and support have to be real.
13Closing arguments
- Build the financial model before launching any funnel, then pick the model whose math works for your price and audience.
Terms worth knowing.
- Low-ticket ascension
- A funnel that sells an inexpensive product first, usually $7-97, then moves buyers up to a higher-priced offer through upsells, calls or follow-up.
- Order bump
- A small add-on offer shown as a checkbox on the checkout page, used to raise the average order value of a low-priced purchase.
- Liquidation
- Recovering ad spend through front-end sales so the net cost of acquiring a customer drops. A funnel that liquidates 100% earns back its ad spend the same day.
- CAC / CPA
- Customer acquisition cost or cost per acquisition: total marketing spend divided by the number of paying customers it produced.
- LTV
- Lifetime value: the total revenue a customer generates across every purchase they make with a business.
- DTA funnel
- Direct-to-application funnel. An ad sends the prospect to a page with an application form, then straight to a calendar to book a sales call.
- VSL
- Video sales letter. A short recorded pitch, often three to ten minutes, placed on a landing page before an application or checkout.
- Price anchoring
- The tendency to judge later prices against the first number seen, so an initial low price can make a later high price feel out of reach.
- Direct to cart
- Selling a product, sometimes several thousand dollars, through a checkout page with no sales call in between.
- Show rate
- The percentage of booked sales calls where the prospect actually attends.
- Setter
- A salesperson who contacts leads first to qualify them and book them onto a closer's calendar.
- Biz op
- Business opportunity niche: offers that promise to teach people how to make money, such as agencies, e-commerce or coaching.
- TAM
- Total addressable market: the full pool of people who could realistically buy a given offer at a given price.
Things they pointed at.
07:02toolManus
07:02toolClaude
07:30toolCodex computer use
18:52channelRyan Clogg
32:12productSuperhuman (John Madsen)
45:59toolBase44
47:09channelAlex Hormozi
55:30linkBlake Wyatt value vortex
1:01:40bookExpert Secrets (Russell Brunson)
1:02:09channelJason Fladlien
Lines you could clip.
00:00
“I will die on the hill that the math always makes more sense.”
36:43
“The biggest lie in the industry is from people like Josh who want to claim that because someone buys a $17 product, they are magically, statistically more likely to buy a $10,000 product.”
38:34
“No, it's not that they buy more. It's that the financial model allows you to spend more money to get the people who will buy the high ticket.”
38:34
“I want people who will never buy my high ticket offer to give me money to go pay to get the people who will.”
28:14
“Do you think I needed to buy a $200 suit from Men's Warehouse to get ascended to buy that?”
09:56
“I don't need Claude Code to make a funnel. I don't need Manus. You know what I need? One page and an application and a call booking system.”
26:25
“70 sales might sound like a lot, but realistically, that is three sales reps. Maybe four.”
56:34
“I am against corruption unless the corruption is mine. And that's how I feel about you when you talk about being one funnel away.”
1:08:37
“Before you launch any funnel, you create a financial model.”
Where the conversation goes.
00:00 – 01:48sparseDebate setup
01:48 – 16:55denseBeginner path to $100K/mo
17:20 – 36:16denseScaling to $1M/mo and CAC math
36:16 – 47:37denseLead quality and price anchoring
47:37 – 58:45steadyLarge organic audiences
59:38 – 1:06:05steadyGrift perception
1:06:05 – 1:09:58steadyClosing arguments
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I will die on the hill that the math always makes more sense. That is the biggest bull I've ever heard in my life.
And let me tell you why. The biggest lie in the industry is from people like Josh who want to claim that because someone buys a $17 product, they are magically, statistically more likely to buy a $10 ,000 product because buyer leads continue to buy more. No, it's not that they buy more.
It's that the financial model allows you to spend more money to get the people who will buy the high ticket. What's better, selling directly the high ticket or selling low ticket and then ascending? to high ticket?
Well, that's the exact question we are debating today. So with me, I have Josh Gavin. He's consulted, worked with or created over 1000 low ticket offers and runs a low ticket offer publishing company.
And of course, we have a returning champion, Spencer Vaughn, my CMO and business partner at sales kick. And he scaled a half a dozen call funnels, if not more to eight or multiple eight figures. So Josh is going to be arguing that low ticket is the best basically for everything.
Spencer is going to be doing the exact opposite and defending the direct the high ticket call funnel, the pure high ticket sales model. We are going to argue this question across seven different questions, which is what's the best model to get to your first 100 grand a month?
What's the best to get to a million a month? What's the best to get the best lead quality? Which one gives you the best profit margins and overall profitability?
Which one should you use and is best if you have a large organic audience? Which is likely to last longer and which is more likely to saturate? And then lastly.
which makes you look more like a grifter. So we are going to start with question one. Before we do that, if you think Spencer wins the debate, you're going to put one in the chat.
If you think Josh wins the debate, you're going to put two in the comments, not the chat. This is not a live stream, but it's going to be the comments. So let's start with question number one, which is, is low ticket to high ticket or direct to high ticket better?
to get to your first initial 100 grand a month so josh you're gonna go first but before you answer i want you to define like in your vision what is like the low ticket to high ticket model like what's your zone of genius what's the sauce like what does the model actually look like and then once we define it we'll talk about what's better to get to 100 grand a month yeah so there's five levels of a low ticket ascension funnel after being in the game and doing this since Like pre -COVID, my first low ticket funnel, I realized there's like five different stages of a low ticket funnel.
Most people think that it's just like low ticket, the order bump, upsell, downsell, upsell, downsell, and that's it. But we've really expanded that. We've gotten to things like pre -landers, quizzes, and there's like a whole different level to this game, which 90 % of people in info know nothing about because they just haven't been taught it or haven't done it.
Today, what I'm going to focus on is my model I do, which is a low ticket call funnel, okay? So how it works is very simple. You have a front end offer, which is $17 to $27.
You have three order bumps on that checkout page. And then we go right to a VSL. This is the beginner friendly way to get into low ticket to Ascension.
And I've worked with beginners. Not only have I worked with brands like Brian Clogg's company and people are doing millions a month, but I'm taking beginners. Like people have never built a funnel launching this model.
So that's like my beginner model. So we're going to start with the beginner model. And then what I want you all to do is when we get to the million a month question, give me like...
the, you know, just docs, Ryan clogs funnel. Okay, great. So, uh, why is getting low ticket, the low ticket call funnels, you put it, why is that better than a direct to call funnel to get to your first 100 grand a month?
What's your argument? Yeah, it's so easy. So when you launch a low, a high ticket call funnel, right?
You are guaranteed to make $0 back that same day you launched the ads. You, would you agree? You launched the ad.
Are you making an argument? Yeah, we're just talking. So if you're trying to add today, you've just started.
Offer's not validated. You spend money today. You book a call, you know, let's say you let them book to the next day or something.
Day one, you're guaranteed to make $0 back. That's not true. Why can't you have a same -day booking, Chris?
Okay, beginner, beginner. Never sold a high -ticket offer. Wait a minute, with low -ticket, don't you have to call the leads to set them to make high -ticket sales anyways?
We're talking beginners. Are you making an argument? You're coming after me.
All right, let's settle down. Let's make your full argument here, and then I'll let Spencer respond in a second. So for the same reason why Cole and their company don't like to take on beginners to teach them high -ticket, how you'd probably DQ them.
Because you know, they're not ready to go right to high ticket. Like the same reason why I do it a low ticket. So you guys are saying, even in your marketing, it's like, hey, you need to have a validated offer.
You need to have sold this before, before you get a closer, et cetera, right? I know this because I've gone through your stuff. Then it's like, what are these people going to do?
So with low ticket, why I love it is you can turn on ads like right away. And when you put a dollar in, you could get at least like 40 cents back. You could get.
50 cents back you can get 60 cents okay great but i want you to make the argument why 100k a month okay yeah yeah i'm talking okay get there so you get 100k a month because what these people want is they want the high ticket sales why low ticket though okay why low ticket so then we're talking more so like the intention of the customers coming through so when i run a low ticket funnel i'm only getting buyers in so we're gonna talk about later like better prospects coming through there But with low ticket, when I have a $17 customer coming in, my sales team or I'd rather talk to someone who's giving me $17 to $27 versus someone who's giving me zero.
Why? They show higher. They show the call more.
They've already given me money, which is not just something that low ticket gurus have said is a better prospect. It's proven that they show higher. They buy more.
The AOV is much higher because they've already given us their money. And so if I want to get to 100K the fastest, I don't want to waste time talking to some broke leads who fill out a form and are coming in like, what is this call for? Blah, blah.
I only want to spend time on the phone with people who are giving me money. I care more about my time. As a beginner, you're doing so much.
You really want to spend most of your time dealing with like a 50 % no -show rate. And then you're talking to a bunch of broke people or people with no intent. That's aggressive to say, not broke people, but people with no intent to show there versus a customer.
And I'm getting real data. They're giving me their money. it's a lot better.
So in terms like the prospects coming through, that's just one of the things. But there's like the financially it makes more sense, the intention of the person makes more sense. And we're gonna get into that a little bit later.
So is your argument that if I'm a beginner, the main thing is that these prospects will just be easier to close because they're higher quality. That's kind of the essence of the argument. 100%.
Okay, let me give a few. But that's like a side thing. Like what we really need to talk about is the financial model behind it.
Okay. That's more important than just the... better process okay let's table that for a second because we're going to get to it probably with the a million a month but let me do a few pushbacks and then we're going to go to spencer so but what do i have to have i mean first of all building a low ticket product and the low ticket funnel and order bumps and all this shit.
It sounds kind of complex, right? Like, like it's a lot of funnel working and tech and media buying and copywriting and offer creation. So is it, does, doesn't that make it harder for beginners?
No, it definitely doesn't. I think it's harder. Like it's way harder to learn how to like fricking close over a phone call, handle rejection than it is to go into AI, take a template, say, copy this for my product.
and launch that way. Like right now, all of our funnels are built on Manus. Claude writes the copy.
Claude writes the ads. And like, if you're like, well, I don't know how my copy is not going to be that good output. It's like, bro, go swipe one of the, you know, hundreds of funnels that are out there that we've built and just tell it to model it.
Like in terms of the tech setup, that's been taken care of. And I know this because right now inside of our program, I have people who have never built a funnel before. They've only been organic.
They've never taken a sales call before. And somehow, somehow, I don't know how we're doing it. We're taking them to launching their first cold ads and enrolling customers in a seven to 14 day sales cycle at a liquidating front end from nothing.
So if people are sitting here and they're like, I can't, there's so many steps and there's so many products. It's like, bro, you have three products, a front end offer, three order bumps, which we'll talk, we can talk about the winning formats for that. and then book a call you're liquidating your money day one and it's super easy to build so like the time to do it it's like we're cranking these out like it takes me about doing this on ai now to launch a brand new offer from nothing it takes about four hours of a product live and ready to go four hours so it's like okay sure if you said that a few years ago when i was doing this archaic just like Typing manually sure, but now it's like you know, I'm assuming you could probably use codex computer use.
Yeah I've had some codex computer use really I've had some wild experiences of that since Astra came out. Okay, great So his argument basically of why it's better to get to your first 100 grand a month is that hey, you're a beginner I'm not that good at sales. I don't know how to do a sales team yada yada yada And that really at the end of the day, like you can, I guess, like funnel hack and model from other people and the setup, it can be really easy now with AI.
So I guess that is the argument. Now you're going to argue basically first why the call funnel is better for a hundred grand a month. And then also you can kind of tail that into addressing his argument.
Well, let me first start by saying that in my culture, we always start with a gift. And so today, obviously I have. the highest tea, highest ticket energy drink that I could possibly find.
And the low ticket man himself, I wanted to give him the lowest tea, lowest ticket energy drink I could find, just a five -hour energy. At the end of this call, we will ascend you to a white monster, my friend. Now, with that being said, why is a call funnel better?
Well, first of all, because both of these things are call funnels. At the end of the day, you have to sell a prospect one way or another. So the whole notion of that you have to learn sales in a call funnel is true.
You also have to learn it in a low -ticket funnel. And you can't clob that, unfortunately. I know you mentioned Manus and Clod.
Now, with that being said, I know that you also mentioned it takes about four hours for you, someone who self -proclaimed has built 1 ,000 low -ticket funnels in your career, to build a low -ticket funnel. But would you imagine that for a beginner, it might take a little bit longer? I would say so, right?
No. So with that being said, number one is it's extraordinarily simple, okay? What I mean by that is very simple, okay?
I don't need Clod code to make a funnel. I don't need Manus. You know what I need?
One page and an application and a call booking system. That's it. Takes literally 15 minutes.
And by the way, not just 15 minutes for me, who's also built thousands of call funnels in my career. That's not actually true, but I built a couple of them, right? But by 24 years old, built a thousand low ticket funnels.
That's amazing. I'm on Zoom. I can show you recordings of building each arrow.
To be clear, I believe you. I'm just saying that is incredible. You should be very proud.
So my point is that it's incredibly simple. It literally is like two web pages and an ad, okay? Number one.
Number two is at low scale, it is the simplest unit economics you can possibly have, the simplest business model you can possibly have to hit seven figures, okay? And what I mean by that is at the end of the day, you ain't gonna, realistically, your clients are getting to seven figures. by selling high ticket on the back end of the low ticket.
Like they ain't getting there with $27 purchases. Well, yeah, we're talking low ticket ascension versus direct high ticket. We're not just saying low ticket only business, which I am running a low ticket only business, which is profitable on the front end.
And according, so that we can talk about right now, we're just talking, you still need a call in it for sure. So the point is to answer his exact question. Let me summarize and make it very clear.
Why is it the easiest and best way to get to 100K a month? Number one is it's extraordinarily simple. Number two is, yes, you have to learn sales.
You have to learn sales in either funnel. It doesn't matter. Okay, number two.
Number three is, and I think this is critical. This is extraordinarily critical. When you launch a high ticket funnel, especially if you use direct offer advertising, you are forced.
to like optimize your offer on the front end because your marketing and sales ability will be dependent on the strength of your offer. What that means is by being forced at low scale to have the best possible offer is that you will make the most money over the lifetime once you get to 100k. and beyond both from a profit margin standpoint and just from a total collected cash standpoint, because you've optimized your offer up front versus hiding it behind a low ticket phone.
So those are my three arguments as to why it's better than. Okay. So I would summarize with what he was saying is you got to learn sales either way.
It's also clearly, I mean, Hey, it is one less, you know, you don't have to set up a product. You don't have to fulfill an extra product. So it is, I would say it is simpler.
It doesn't mean it's easier to your point, but it is simpler. Both models are going to have to learn sales either way. And then also, I think pretty much what he's saying is a call funnel gives you more room for error.
And then also, if you start with a more offer driven funnel, you're more likely to iterate long term to have like a better offer. So what's your response? So one, do you learn to learn sales?
I would say no, I disagree with that to the same extent. This other thing you said there too. Hold on.
Why would you disagree? Because with high ticket call funnel, you have to rely on push marketing, pushing someone to make a direct response decision there versus like for some of our low ticket funnels. Like let's say someone comes in and we spend $1, get $1 back the same day.
I don't have the same pressure you guys have to make my dollar back as fast as you need to. So for a lot of our people, if they don't know sales, we'll run direct to cart 2K, 3K, 4K offers without a sales call. And it's okay if we have a lower take rate because it's pure profit from that point.
So it's like, if you're like, well, I'm not good at sales. Like I can take a beginner. who is like, I don't want to do a sales call, but I want to sell my 5k, 10k offer.
And we'll do that. For example, so we're talking with like real stuff. My friend, Fred, shout out Fred, one of my consulting clients, he, and in the past, he runs a low ticket offer to help people.
It's like writing their book. It's like a kind of book thing, right? And everyone's like, you have to do a call.
You have to do a call to sell people back on a low ticket. And this dude was like, screw that. I don't want to be on the phone all the time.
He has a kid. He wants to be with his family. So instead of just listening to like the psyop that every guru they got biz opt into this game from said to do, he said, You know what?
I'm going to go direct cart 5K. And you're like, oh, that's impossible. You can't sell 5K direct to cart, cold traffic.
He's not a guru. He's pretty much faceless. And he's ripping.
He's doing over $100 ,000, $200 ,000 a month from this product. It's probably more now. It was like in the past.
And so it's like, okay, well, there's always like stipulations for who can work for or not versus you guys. You have to be good at sales. You have to.
And think, everyone who's teaching the high ticket call funnel process, if they're a guru teaching this. In their sales process, their customers, they're dequeuing people who don't have a validated high ticket offer. So you beginners watching this, like why would you listen to somebody saying you can do this as a beginner where they won't even work with you unless you have a validated offer because they know going right to cold, you're going to be in the red super far.
You're probably not going to have the cash to do that. You're probably not going to be good on the sales call. You're going to come back complaining because you aren't making money versus me.
I'll gladly take you on because you can come to me with a $50 a day ad budget. You're going to liquidate that the same day. You can take it.
as long as you want to get a high ticket customer, you're going to be happy because you're probably only going to lose maximum, maybe 50 % of your spend. That's like, if you're doing bad, if you're one of a bad student of mine, I'm really failing with you. You're losing 50 % of your spend.
Best case, you should be making it back. So it's like, hold on. Okay.
So that's pretty much your argument. All right. So quick response.
And then we're going to move on to question number two. First of all, I think you're making the assumption that there's so many assumptions. First assumption is you're just assuming that like, Oh, like I'm a beginner.
I just make my low ticket call phone and a hundred percent of the time I liquidate all of my ad spend upfront. A hundred. So like I said, 50%, even if it's 50%, guess what?
Your phone, you're going to wait 0 % the same day. So why would you pick them? That's not true.
Cause I can get a same day close. Well, you're a beginner. We're talking beginner.
Like, okay. You made your case. You go on.
Thank you. Thank you. Cool.
I appreciate that. Um, so, so number one is I think you're assuming that people come out of the gate. For every ounce of sales that you think you have to learn to do a direct call funnel at 100 grand a month, which realistically we're talking about closing, I don't know, 10 to 15 units, right?
It's not really that much volume, okay? For every ounce of effort you have to put into that, you have to put 10 ounces to get into direct response marketing to a point where you can actually liquidate your ad spend with a low ticket funnel. I don't think so.
Yes, you do. Let me finish my point. Let him finish his point.
Number two is, okay, and this is critical. You're making the assumption. that if you teach people high ticket, that it's impossible to work with beginners.
Like as if beginners are unable to learn high ticket. Now, maybe that was your experience, which is why you went to low ticket. I don't know.
I don't want to make an assumption. But what I do want to tell you is, you know, obviously we've been in the training space for quite a long time, working with folks, getting started in high ticket scaling, et cetera, et cetera. Do you really think that we've gotten to the scale that we're at today by only working with people that are doing a hundred grand a month plus?
Do you really think? No, of course we work with beginners. We work with a ton of beginners and we love working with them because guess what?
It's much easier with high ticket to get to a hundred grand a month than with low ticket.
are meant for corporate all purpose booking and it'll increase your show rates. So we've had clients see 30 to 100 % increases in their show rate because our calendar system is specifically designed for call funnels and other funnels that are high volume sales call booking funnels. And the software does so much more.
It's really the only product designed specifically for sales teams with inbound booking systems. So if you're interested, go to saleskick .com, check it out. Now back to the video.
Move on to the next question because There's a lot of people probably watching at 50 to 100 grand a month, or maybe they're at 500 grand a month and they want to get to a million a month. So you're going to answer now, why do you think the low ticket Ascension model is better to get to a million a month?
Like we're talking the real scale. Okay. And so now also answer this by saying essentially what your model is to get to a, you know, for the low ticket to Ascension scale.
So the same thing, it's going to be front end offer. which is $17, three order bumps and book a call. That's all I need.
You're not going to add OTO2. You're not going to do OTO2 down. So you're not going, none of that.
You can later. That's like level three. That's level two, but that's later.
That's like, it adds too much, too much friction, like in too much for somebody. Like, cause one thing you have to understand too, is like in this space and I'm helping someone like take somebody from like, let's say this one is trying to go like a million a month that we're talking about for this person. A lot of these people and like in the info space, you guys are sales first companies.
you have a high -ticket offer on the back end of your company to save your butt if you're not good at marketing. So all this propaganda against low -ticket not being good and this or that, whatever, it only comes from people who run a sales -first org, who've only solved their sales -first problems. Just let the record state, Josh does not like sales.
No, I don't like sales. I don't like solving for sales problems. I'll outsource it.
I'll outsource it to like, in the past, I've outsourced to my Dunphy sales agency. All these people who are saying these things about it, they've had to solve, they only solve sales for prom. They don't want to solve marketing for his proms.
Okay, great. Tell me why, though. Okay, low ticket ascension.
You're going to keep the model the same. Why is it better, though, to get to a million a month? The economic model.
It's all about, right? To scale a business, all we care about. at it's like chad basic level right the most basic chad level chad like a chad marketer i know you guys are onks but like us young kids we like to talk like we're chads we just we don't care we don't all fancy right 24 i remember i was like a baby in my parents basement watching your stuff and they're like it's crazy to be here i don't know where you were but it's good to be here too but i remember like we're chad we just care about two things my cost to acquire a customer And then my LTV on the back end, right?
That's it. Which you guys would agree are pretty important numbers to care about, correct? Yes, everybody would agree with that.
So to scale to a million dollars a month while keeping our margins as good as possible, we need to make sure that our ratio from CAC to LTV is amazing. Now, shout out Ryan Clogg for really like helping me care about my numbers before I became friends with him. I didn't really care much about that.
But after texting him and all you get back is numbers about CAC and LTV, you start to care about it. Now with low ticket. We can all agree that if you are doing a low ticket right, assuming you do it right, you're as good as someone like me.
If I coach you and consult you, if it comes out right, the math always makes more sense. Explain why, though. Think about this.
When you're going to acquire a high ticket client, let's say your cost per acquisition is $2 ,000 to get someone to close on the back end for your 5K offer. And this was the case for one of my guys. He helped accountants, helped them charge high ticket.
That was his offer. And their VSL funnel was acquiring a customer for $2 ,000. to get a $5 ,000 purchase, which is great.
That's fine. That's awesome. But then you factor in your taxes, your closer fees, et cetera, that you want that CPA to go down a bit.
Now with a low ticket call funnel, when we put it into place, we dropped his net high ticket CPA to $1 ,000. Now, what does that mean for everyone? Who's like, what does that mean?
It means that the true spend after liquidation, what we truly lost to get a customer was $1 ,000. So why would any business owner, if you come to them and you say, hey, I'm going to cut your CPA in half or even just a third to get a high ticket client. They've never once looked at me and said, I don't want that.
All they say is like, that sounds too good to be true. But they want the liquidation. So why does it make it better?
It's because the financial model makes more sense because your CPA is going to go down because of liquidation. And then on the back end, you can do whatever the frick you want. You can mess up there.
You can upsell them. Okay. So let me ask you a few questions to round out your argument before it goes back to Spencer.
And this part might take a little bit longer. So first of all, there's probably a lot of people who are listening and they maybe are like, oh, I don't know if a low ticket would work for my offer. So can you give some examples?
You can just state the offer. You don't have to state the person or the company of like where you've seen this model work. Everywhere.
I've never like. like give some examples like right for example we're in like the health space so i'm running like who are like okay so when our offers we run right high ticket back pain josh how are you going to sell a back end offer helping people with their back pain five thousand dollars virtually that that sounds like a hard feat i most of these biz op people i hang out with are only in biz op would never touch that type of offer and i was like that i looked at myself and i was like If I really want to say I'm a really good marketer in this space, I can't only have biz op experience.
I can sit here and talk about all the biz op offers I run off selling money. So we're talking low ticket to high ticket, back pain. That's rare.
Marriage. I've done marriage. We've done any type of relationship.
We've done music offers. That was my first one. It was a music offer, guitar learning, pet training.
If you look at my type form from, again, the thousands of consults and funnels I built, all different types of markets, I've seen it all. I've seen the business. I've seen you name it.
And even yours, I did a consulting call with you. I've done B2B. We've done every type of thing.
So that's going to be my next question. A lot of people are going to say the low ticket doesn't work for B2B. Yeah, that's stupid.
it's done why is it stupid because most times the offer you're selling to a b2b person's like terrible like why do you think someone in b2b is going to want to watch a course why do you think they're going to want to watch a master class so what are they going to want they're not they're wanting to plug and play a tool template which is one of our five winning formats that they can install into their business or feel good buying thinking they'll install it like most times if ryan bought a low ticket offer off cold traffic let's say he was like i want to increase my show rate he's going to see it and it's like you know let's say it's like aaron platter sold something on like show rates and look ryan buys 27 bucks he's probably not going to go through it but he's now in the ecosystem and aaron just acquired him at a break -even or at a slight loss and then ryan might see as an event in person or something high ticket and then he's going to purchase from it so it's proven it's far easier to ascend somebody who buys a 27 thing and never uses it than just to sell someone what they want on the front end well hold on we'll get we'll get to you in a second
So let me give you one other piece of pushback. So in my experience, any sort of, because we have ran low ticket and we've also ran 2K auto webinar, 2K auto webinar we ran to the tune of 20 million a year at one point. So in our experience, those funnels take a lot more creatives than a call funnel.
i mean bro every type of funnel in today's market how we run ads like you are going to need more creatives but also it's like again this is what an objection like you go to events and sort of low ticket they'll tell you oh like yeah it takes a lot of creatives and then in a sales first industry like this info space is people look at that and it's like oh that's i'm not gonna do it now versus like you guys probably heard, oh, we need more setters or closers.
You're going to be like, oh yeah, that's easy, which that's not easy. You know, it's not easy to build a head manpower. It's way easier now with our AI and with editors who crank out creatives.
That is no longer a bottleneck. Sure, before when you couldn't do that, when you didn't have the systems, when you didn't have a group of like that, the e -com people are building for us with amazing editors and creative strategists. Yes, creative output was hard, but I don't think that's a reason not to do it.
Like I would rather solve for, I think even like anyone here would rather solve for, Like just the creative production process because that's just AI and tech versus manpower and people I don't want to deal with people like right now Okay, give an example with one of our offers just loads to get no high ticket Our pot is very simple creative strategist, which is me with AI my video editor shot harsh and that's it.
And there are comedy ads can be pumped out like that. We're going to be pumping out intent. Point taken, point taken.
So your argument is, well, yeah, it is maybe a little bit more, but it's a trade -off from working with having to hire a bunch of people, yada, yada, yada. And the other big thing is the economics in terms of the liquidation. All right, your response.
Yeah, well, let the record show that your entire argument started with, look, if we assume that you're as good at me at low ticket, You're going to liquidate all of your ad spend. You're going to send people to $5 ,000 products without talking to them on the phone.
And money is just going to magically print out of thin air. Yes. And that might be true for somebody who's done a thousand low ticket products.
But for everyone else who's a normal person, I would say that's probably not true, right? It's probably going to be a little bit harder than you're making it sound today. And so I say all that to say, why is high ticket easier to get to a million a month?
Number one is, are we really going to argue that a skill? which is sales that has been around for a millennia at least is like suddenly the most challenging, difficult thing to learn in the world. Numbers.
This is numbers. Josh, we got to give him a low ticket mic so we can meet him. Okay.
Let me continue. So sales, which is a skill, which is talking to people and getting them to do things that you want them to do. By the way, You still have to do that.
I know you pretend like you don't, but you still got to do that with low ticket. But that's neither here nor there. It's a skill that's been around forever.
The beautiful thing about sales is that, and high ticket in general, is that the unit economics make it so simple to scale, right? If you have a $15 ,000 product on the front end, how many sales do you need to get to a million a month?
I'm asking you, Josh.
About 70. How do you do a low ticket funnel without doing math? It's about 70.
I'm just more complex. Between 70 and 75. My Google Sheets.
Something like that. Something like that. 70, something like that.
15. I turned it down, dude. I turned it down.
Anyways, that's neither here nor there. My point is, my point is, is 70 sales might sound like a lot, but realistically, that is three sales reps. Maybe four.
Okay. So we're talking about, Hey, it's the owner of the business and it's three or four sales reps. Right.
So again, simplicity at the end of the day, there's a saying that's been in business for decades, which is simplicity scales, simple scales. Why do we want, I know you've talked about like the economic model, the economic model. I love the phrase economic model because there's the underlying assumption that it works.
The underlying assumption is that the economic model is going to liquidate all my ad spend. What do you say to all the people who've tried low tick and that hasn't been the case? Even if you don't liquidate all your ad spend, even if you only liquidate 30%, that's still going to cut your net high ticket CPA.
It's going to be the show rate's going to be higher. No, no, no. You have to assume in that case that lead quality is better.
And let me ask you a very serious question. It is 100%. Let me ask you a very serious question.
Do you know what this is? This is a suit. This is a $10 ,000 suit that I bought from some custom tailors that do Conor McGregor.
I'm serious. I got my favorite quote in there. This was $10 ,000.
Now, let me ask you a question, Josh. Do you think me, who can, at the blink of an eye, drop $10 ,000 on a suit, custom -made suit, from the same tailors that made Conor McGregor's suit, do you think I needed to buy a $200 suit from Men's Warehouse to get ascended to buy that? In fact...
Isn't someone who buys a $200 suit at Men's Warehouse, aren't they probably less likely to buy this suit? Because if they were shopping for this suit, they would just buy it. That's the flawed argument.
So real fast, I want you to do two things. Number one, I actually forgot to ask you to define for the audience what the different types of call funnels are, which is what you're arguing. So those kind of like DTA, opt -in, even a webinar.
Call funnel. So do that really fast. And then to give you some pushback, what would you say to somebody who they're like, well, you know, I'm not a salesperson.
I don't know how to run a sales team, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. How would you respond to that? Well, let's start with defining it.
So there's a handful of call funnels that have worked successfully. Okay. Which is great because by the way, on Josh's note, he has noted one exact formula that magically works.
With call funnels, there's a bunch of formulas that actually work. So the first one being what we call DTA. direct to app funnel.
You run an ad, they land on a page with an application, they fill it out and book a call. Could not be easier than that. If you want a little bit more of an advanced funnel, you might do a direct VSL.
You run an ad, they land on a page with a little video, it's called a VSL. Could be anywhere from three to five minutes, all the way to maybe even 10 minutes, okay? And then guess what they do?
They fill out an application and they book a call, all right? And there's a bunch of variations of all those funnels, but those are the main two that we're talking about. Basically, you're running an ad or you're generating traffic, maybe it's organic, maybe it's ads, regardless.
Take them to a page where they very quickly they book a call now to answer your pushback of I'm not a salesperson and I don't know how to sell and so therefore I should just give up on life and be a loser and not so high ticket again Let's just go back to square one here. Let's say you run a low ticket funnel at the end of the day You're somebody has to get on a sales call and sell them something that's expensive No.
At the end of the day. No. I said you don't have to.
That's one of the bads. But you've done 1 ,000 low -ticket funnels. We're talking about a beginner.
We're talking about someone who's just getting started. Yeah, they don't have to. They probably shouldn't get on a sales call right away, but continue.
Continue. Let me give you another follow -up argument as well. Sure, sure.
We've had a lot of clients. They get to B2C. We're going to be talking B2C.
They get to $400 ,000 to $700 ,000 a month, maybe a million a month. But then in their P &Ls, It generally looks like around like ad cost starts to reach in the high 30s of 40 % of all cash.
Their labor might be 25 and then their overhead might be 10. I don't know what that adds up to, but their profit margins are getting crunched and it's mainly on the ad side. So a lot of them have had success by basically making their flagship kind of like their upsell and then taking that ad spend and cutting it by half.
by liquidating the funnel. And then also because of show rates with B2C call funnels, sometimes they've had better show rates. So anyways, you get where I'm going with here.
How would you respond to that? Think about somebody who's doing like a B2C health, biz op, dating, whatever. Well, there's two core responses to that.
The first one is, is that for every example of somebody where that has occurred. They have had a high ticket call funnel. They get to 600, 700 grand a month.
And then they go, man, I can't scale this thing anymore. Let me go do low ticket. For every example we can say where that has worked out well, we can probably list five to 10 examples of people who've just wasted a year not getting anywhere because they can't get it to work.
They can't get it to liquidate. Okay, so that's number one. We're only focusing on when it works.
I think we need to be realistic about it doesn't always work. Not everybody can be Josh, okay? The second argument I have is that I know we like to say, well, B to C, sometimes you need to do it.
But then we look at like one of the biggest B2C offers in the world, non, by the way, non -financial, non -ROI, not a biz op offer, superhuman, John Madsen. They're doing 4 million a month. They don't have a low ticket on the front end, but how come they haven't needed to do it?
right? That's a question for you. How come they have not needed to do it?
If you ever wanted to get my one -on -one help in terms of scaling your business, then listen up really fast. So we're taking on a few clients where I can personally one -on -one audit their business across marketing, sales, operations, fulfillment, finance, to be able to tell you what your constraint actually is. And ultimately, what are the one to three things you need to do next to be able to scale working entirely one -on -one with me?
So if that's interesting, there's a link in the description that'll say Cole one -on -one that you can go book. But essentially, not only will you get my personal advice, but we'll also be opening up our entire playbooks of my $36 million a year company across marketing, sales, operation, fulfillment, finance.
So you can basically model the best practices of what we've done right into your business. And it will include the opportunity to meet in person up at an event with me. So if that's interesting, click the link in the description and mount back to the video.
Well, this is a good point to transition and you can respond to Spencer's points. Okay. I'm going to surround the superhuman thing.
And then I have something to respond to myself. You got a lot to respond to. So the reason why someone like.
him why he doesn't have to do that is because his tam he's going after ultra wealthy people he is focusing he has a super super ultra high ticket offering deep back end to offset the high expensive cost to get a customer and if chances are like if you came to me you said hey dude there's a model where we can get you 50 of your spend back to the same day without affecting the lead quality And his CMO, his company is not going to shut the door on me and be like, get out of here.
That's not possible. Dude, the people I'm talking to. Well, let me tell you what John would say because I've had this conversation with him.
He would say he's worried about devaluing the value of his service. And he's worried about essentially, you know, also the low ticket not attracting those higher net worth people in the first place. So respond to what he would already have said.
So whenever we build a low ticket offer, we build back to front. like when like for example when we're building out like ryan clogs load ticket offer for his health thing the way we have to position it and the way we talk about the offer and the way that we say it we got to make sure we're not going to use language that's a super gimmicky and get all like the click thing click bank buying health people who want to cure an instant thing and get on the sales call and like wait it's 9 800 i'm not going to do that so how i have to position the offer the messaging the the positioning for it is just simple things you have to make sure it's good so another example bizop we have somebody they're one of the biggest bizop offers in the game i'm not gonna we'll say afterwards biggest like one of the biggest people and their backing offers 25 000 and they said the same thing to me and at the time i think they're doing like three or five million a month like josh how are we gonna sell a 17 to 25k it's impossible it's not that's not gonna happen i'm like guys it's not gonna happen if you're going out there and using language like
quit your nine to five job or make your first a thousand or all this language that people don't have money. So I just switched the positioning. It's still $17.
Instead of calling a course, I called a license. You get to resell what we have there. And all of a sudden we're doing perfectly fine.
18K packages, 25K packages, like cooking, crushing. I'll show you the high rows after this. I will show you the numbers that it's happening.
It's $17 front end. So again, sure, if you're out there and you're, you know, you're, you just position in the wrong way and you're going to sell an offer that's going to attract a broker less. you know, a good person, then a hundred cents is going to happen.
But again, sure. That could. If you haven't done a thousand offers, you've seen it, that could happen.
So your big thing is that if the messaging in the offer is right, it shouldn't matter anyways. Which we worked on your offer. I was like, okay, you're getting these people because of the messaging and positioning there at the low ticket.
If we change this, this, this, it's probably going to pull on those people. Just like on a high ticket call funnel, the same thing can happen. If you're messaging bad, your ads are bad.
You have one ad that's promising like, you know, get rich quick stuff and they come in and here's work. It's not going to pay off. So you can argue and be like, well, okay, with low ticket, you have to be, your offer has to be so dialed in and make sure the quality is good.
You have to make sure. All the stuff you're saying, like direct, you're saying, oh, it's going to be so much work on the front end. The same thing as a VSL funnel.
If you have the wrong positioning, the wrong messaging, the wrong ads, no matter the funnel, you're going to attract. the wrong customer. It's a fair point.
This is a good time to transition to our next question, which is what's better for lead quality. So Spencer, you can start off. If you want to respond to anything, that's great.
But make your argument about why call funnel is better for lead quality. The biggest lie in the industry is from people like Josh who want to claim that because someone buys a $17 product, they're magically, statistically more likely to buy a $10 ,000 product because buyer leads continue to buy more. That is the biggest...
bullshit I've ever heard in my life. And let me tell you why. There's a very simple psychological concept called .
Have you ever heard of price anchoring before? Okay. Price anchoring is when we're having a negotiation.
And I set a price, whether it be higher or lower than whatever we're negotiating. And now we're almost negotiating off of that price rather than what the thing actually should be, right? And that's exactly what happens with low ticket funnels.
You set the price anchor at $27. And now what magically a bunch of brokies who are buying $27 products on the front end, no offense, I bought them too. All right, we're all brokies at our heart, it's fine.
But with that being said, all these people now that are buying $27 products, like you mentioned, Ryan, who buys a $27 thing from, you know, whoever, to help with the share rates. Never even consumes it.
Probably doesn't even open it. But suddenly, because he gave $27 away, magically now he's more likely to give away $10 ,000. Well, hold on.
This is actually a good point to transition to a very important question, which would be, hey, you know, if people are coming in and they got a $27 product, they haven't been through it yet, and they're on an upsell call, doesn't it also take a degree of sales skills that the salesperson has to have to convince them to not just...
wait to go through the product and then make a decision and buy this super high ticket thing immediately when they haven't even been through the product you see what i'm saying yeah we can get to that second i mean my answer is no you don't that it's that's not a salesman it's an offer thing as soon as they buy a low ticket thing you don't need any sales skills at all no so uh let them respond let them respond yeah i would say yes yeah if we're if you don't want to do it you don't have to i'll die on that hill because we have proof of it but what what's big here like we keep arguing like I'm not going to argue that because they bought a $27, they're more likely to buy a 5K offer.
That was a propaganda that the old school low ticket gurus that came in space told everybody. I appreciate you. They told everybody that.
They told everybody that. And then everyone's like, they go in there and they're like. Oh my gosh.
And then it's not happening. They're like, but you told me so. You told me that they're going to buy more.
No, it's not that they buy more. It's that the financial model allows you to spend more money to get the people who will buy the high ticket. I want people who will never buy my high ticket offer to give me money to go pay to get the people who will.
Your model is based on exclusion marketing. Only like 1%, 1 % to 2 % of the clicks that land in your funnel will ever give you money. That means 98 % of your spend is just going to Facebook.
I'm not okay with that. So I'm not saying that they buy more. I'm saying I have a better financial model, which allows me to spend more, which allows me to keep more money, just like an e -commerce business, how they literally need cashflow to keep their ads going to scale as far as they do.
I need that. And so for you guys, the way that high ticket has solved it and why you don't feel that constraint or like it doesn't hit you as much as you have to charge, like have crazy claims or super high ticket offer in the backend to make up for the fact that only like 2 % of your clicks give you money. Now, what happens is once you get to to the 1 million, 2 million, and 3 million, 5 million.
Like you said, things start to change. Your head count goes up, taxes, you have fricking like heads, all the staff comes in. And then that's where those brands come to me and they're like, Josh, we need low ticket.
We need this thing. Oh my gosh. Like we need this.
We need this. And I'm like. welcome.
Now you're ready to listen. You understand it's not about low ticket buys more high tickets, the financial model. And so a lot of what's been said here about the call funnel is the same stuff I listened to on a fricking VSL when I was a kid, trying to teach me to be a high ticket coach saying it's so simple.
It's two steps. It's such simple unit economics. It's like, yes, it is.
But what they won't tell you is what happens as you scale it. What they won't tell you is what happens as you're running ads, because that's not a sexy pitch. And so I fell for that when I was 14 to 18 years old.
And then I saw the light and I was like, oh my gosh, there's something called economics. There's called liquidation.
I said, you know what? I'm actually gonna start caring about the math so I can actually profit. Okay.
So I'll let you respond to what he said, but also just, again, we're on the point of, we're still on the point of you making your argument about lead quality being better with the call funnel. So you could respond to what he said, but also respond to say a lot of B2C people who, because one thing that I will say, maybe he has, that is a good point.
is that the show rates are going to be a lot higher and potentially even the quality because you're optimizing and using the purchase pixel in the first place so the just baseline credit financial whatever and also the show rates are going to be a little bit higher on that side right hold on so And then also on the B2C side, a lot of people complain about low show rates and bad quality on the call funnel.
So again, you can respond to some of the stuff he said, but also like, especially for B2C, lead quality call funnel, like how can you even get it good? He's already agreed. He just said that lead quality, that people who buy a low ticket are not statistically more likely to buy a high ticket.
He just said that. So I think that completely negates any argument around lead quality. Actually, his only argument that he just made is that the financial model, the economics, right, behind low ticket versus high ticket are in favor of low ticket.
Well, let me reframe even what he said to even make it a little stronger. He might say that it might not be as statistically likely, but the financial model is better, so you have a lower CAC. And this would probably be true, is that generally...
those people, because they're buyers and they think they're showing up for implementation call or whatever, are going to show up higher, which is a problem for a lot of B2C call funnels, right? So you can respond to that argument. I'm beating up his argument a little bit.
Yes. On the note of the economic model, one point that you made was that, man, you scale your high ticket call funnel to a point. that you're like, man, ad spend is too high, right?
We're B2C, whatever it is. Things start to break down in the business. We're hitting some tailwinds or whatever the heck it's called, right?
Headwinds, I don't know. I dropped out of college. I don't know, man.
I went to a low ticket college. Anyways, point being is you're like, man, at that point, they come to me and they say, hey, we need some low ticket help because we got to reduce our CAC. Or they have a really, really big backend.
And so aren't we really just saying the same thing? Like if at the end of the day, the result, the plan to scale once you hit that point, and for different businesses, different levels, right? It's either to reduce your CAC.
by creating an ascension model on the front end where you ascend to a five or $10 ,000 thing on the front end, right? Your high ticket thing. Or to ascend people on the back end to a $50 ,000 thing.
Doesn't it make more sense to focus on the ascension to the back because the unit economics are that much better? No, definitely not. Because the TAM of people who can afford my, like that back end, true back end I can offer is way smaller and technically more expensive to get than me selling a $17 offer.
Like I can acquire. I can run laps around how many people you can get for the high ticket, true or ultra back -end offer with my low ticket than that. So you do the math.
Sure, it'll solve for in that business, but that doesn't change the fact of how much you're spending in ads on the front end. And again, what percentage of your high ticket people will join your true back -end, back -end offer or even qualified for it? That TAM is way smaller.
And so again, the financial model is just going to keep winning left and right. And that's what I care about. But we're now on the same financial model.
We're using a front end product to liquidate ad spend to then ascend people. I'm just saying, let's do that with high ticket on the front end. So we set a higher pricing.
Sure, but again, still, to see that true back and back and offer you want to add, right? Only 1 % to 2 % of the clicks you're paying for are going to see that, buy that offer. That does not solve for the fact that 98 % of the traffic you're sending to your funnel is not giving you money.
Your business is excluded. Let me give you an interesting argument that I'm going to beef up Spencer's argument. So I had a client.
who saw the low ticket model basically and this is the the mid -ticket model which was the 2k auto webinar to a 10k upsell you're very familiar with that whole jam and he was like you know what i'm just going to run a call funnel have all the sales guys sell 2k put them through the same onboarding and upsell process and then sell them 10k right so that's kind of almost part like that's almost even a more advanced version of spencer's argument so What's wrong with something like that?
No, it's okay. It's so funny. I was thinking about this in like our space right now.
There's new trends with funnels all day long. Like the, oh my gosh, everyone's cycling. They go to a mass finder.
One dude's doing one thing and they get hyped. Everyone jumps on it. It's mainly because it's a bunch of biz op people just competing against each other at the same thing.
But the new hype right now is the webinar with a low ticket upsell, liquidate your spend, and then doing the webinar, it's like the mid ticket, liquidating and going to high ticket. So as much as all these high ticket info people are trying to like say call funnel, call funnel, call funnel, and like, you know, going towards that, they're slowly coming back.
They're realizing, oh, wait. Josh is right. Everyone's numbers is right.
Liquidation. I need liquidation. And instead of there might be a little nervous around the front end, but that's why they're adding into their upsell path.
That's why they're adding it before the webinar. That's why like most people are okay with running a webinar, just break even because they know that the math in today's market does not work the same as back in the day when I was a little kid in my parents' basement learning about call funnels. Like the math is not the same.
Why are the biggest biz op and info offers right now doing the free webinar upsell the fricking, you know, like. twenty seven dollar thing and then the webinar then they liquidate with the mid ticket and doing that and i'm like bro you could just liquidate day one instead of waiting for the webinar there's still so much risk on that webinar so no matter what everybody in the industry is solving for trying to solve for the issue that we solved years ago which is lowering your CAC and creating a more economic friendly model that's including everybody, getting money from everybody.
Because even now, I think with financing, that's what that was solving for. We couldn't then sell our high ticket to everybody. So we had to get Klarna and Affirm and ClarityPay and all this stuff.
And then now it's getting so bad that all the people in freaking Miami and all those places down there have to sell base 44 subscription affiliate deals because their 21 -year -old customers can't afford it. What's base 44? Oh my gosh.
Let me tell you. But it's their lead gen. These people can't sell.
The models for the call funnel aren't working the same. So now they have to give away their course for free and get them on a software and get a $250 payout from the company because the economics are making sense. We've been saying this for years.
Okay, let Spencer respond and then we'll move on to the next question. I love the propaganda because it's like somehow in the last... Every time I have these debates, they say the same argument.
It's like magically in the last two years, the thing that has worked for thousands of years has stopped working. No, I didn't say it stopped working. Like my previous debate, ads, they've stopped working.
Ads are dead, you know? With you, it's like taking sales calls has stopped working and they're dead. Like it's just propaganda bullshit.
I never said that though. I said, let him finish, let him finish. My point is this.
Josh. There are... you know, we're saying like, we're saying things, it's a giant style.
You're like, oh, all the top info offers you're doing. No, they're not, dude. Sure, there are some top info offers that are doing exactly what you're doing.
There's also plenty of them that are doing a bunch of other stuff too. Like, what are we talking about? I mean, if you really want the top info offers, look at Hermosa.
He's doing in -person events. Is that a low ticket funnel? No.
Okay, it's not. Like a $5 ,000 front end. He has a book.
He literally has a low ticket offer. He literally has a low ticket offer. Hold on.
This is everybody. I will die on the hill. This is a good transition to our next question, which is, is low ticket to Ascension or call funnel better if you have a big audience?
So let's just say that, you know, you are a million plus on any platform. You can go first. Yeah, call funnel is better.
It's not even close. Why is that? Hold on, hold on.
Let him respond. Okay. Well, since we're talking about Hermosy.
I know you think Hermosi has a low -ticket funnel because he wrote a couple books. Last time I checked, he doesn't have a landing page with three order bumps, okay, to then get a send -and -do $5 ,000 thing. So I think we're talking about two different things here, okay?
Also, they're free on Audible. Totally different model. Anyways, his front -end product, his actual front -end product, is a $5 ,000, I don't know how much it is now, but it's a $5 ,000 to $10 ,000 event that he does in person, okay?
And considering that he is the number one brand in our space, making the most money by far, I would say that success leaves clues. Wouldn't you agree?
And so let's think for a second. Why does that make sense? Because again, we're setting the price anchor.
If you set the price anchor at $27, it is statistically much harder now to upsell the same thing to 5 ,000, 10 ,000, something. Versus if you set it at 5 ,000 and then you ascend people from there, you can get people that'll pay you 100 ,000, 200 ,000. Wait, wait, but make the argument for the audience.
So like, if I'm a YouTuber with a million followers and I know I can have a high ticket offer, I'm like, should I sell these guys low ticket first? Or should I do high? Why should they do high ticket?
Yes. Because it's the lowest friction way to collect money from your audience. Okay.
So let me give you my pushback on this. So I've had people I've done consults with. And I mean, we're talking like some of these people are pretty famous.
Okay. And they are trying to get into coaching info for the first time. And this particular individual had 30 million followers.
Okay. On Instagram. And their hesitation with a call funnel is they were like.
yo, if we do a call fault, I'll just let anybody book a call. Like we're from day one of launching that, of me even putting it in my Instagram bio. We're going to have probably, we're going to need 50 reps from day one.
So they were like, well, maybe what we should do is make money doing the low ticket. And then that way we could build the sales team a little bit more slower. How would you respond to that?
Okay. Well, that is no offense to the person who said that. You're very intelligent.
You have 30 million followers. You know way more than me. That doesn't even make sense.
If we assume the same volume of traffic, goes through the low ticket funnel and the high ticket funnel. Either way, you're ending up with a metric ton of sales calls.
So I don't even know what we're talking about, number one. No, no. You respond, you respond.
Okay. Yes, it does. That's number one.
Number two is, first of all, there's a million ways to get around this imaginary problem that does not exist. The very easiest way to do it would be to, you know, I don't know, let's say, hey, we're going to launch this thing. It's going to be an app funnel.
We're going to market it with the price up front, which the people with the biggest brands, they often do that to basically let people know, hey, here's how much it's going to be, which makes the close rate like 95 % when they get on the call. Okay. And we're going to very intentionally have very strict qualifying statements on the landing page and the application to route people off of it.
And even if we really are that concerned, what we could do is we could just say, hey, you know what? Why don't we just launch this thing at... a hundred dollars a day of retargeting ads and limit the throughput just to get a couple reps in.
Because we know we're going to print 50X ROAS on this, right? There's no question. We're spending a hundred dollars a day.
Make sure we get the reps in, build the sales team a little bit, okay? And then eventually, if you want to then go take it to the masses of 30 million people, you can do that. So, and let me make your argument a little better because this is what I actually thought, this is what I told this person too, is number one, yes.
Instead, because yes, if you do throw up a story and you got 30 million followers or even a million followers, you might need 10 sales reps from day one. But what you could do is just start an email list. And then you could send out segments to the list very gradually to throttle the call volume that way.
Or like what you said, the easiest way to really do it is just run retargeting ads. And then you can throttle it that way. You know, you can run a $50 ad a day.
But there is actually a significant amount of people, not a 30 million, but a million followers. And they're like, dude, I want to get in the high ticket. Where do I start?
So anyways, I would say. That's Spencer's argument. But why would you advise somebody with a large organic audience to start with low ticket?
For everyone listening here, like the solutions they gave are very valid. And like, I think my mind logically would go to that, right? Which is their solution is exclusion.
Excluding and creating friction from the amount of people coming in to the high ticket offer. But I don't know about you guys aren't listening or even people in the room now. Can I make my argument even better though?
Just to push back. I'm not, I'm not, it's not two versus one. I'm just trying to, I'm trying to set you guys up is it's not exclusion.
He did mention an exclusion argument, but then he kind of pivoted. If I'm running a small budget retargeting ad that only a portion of my audience sees at one time, that's not exclusion. So I just want you to address the actual argument.
Or if I put a million of those followers, 200 ,000 of them on an email list, and then I do little segments. Yeah. I mean, that's still excluding attention though.
it's excluding attention but it's it's not i'm not dqing anybody because they're all going to see the offer at a pace that works for them so anyways you respond yeah so whether it's excluding friction or the call soon coming through like either way it's like it's still excluding so my thing was low ticket is like we can make money off everybody in the fall, in the base, in the customer base.
Everybody can come in through that. So now your creator is a million or 30 million people. They're going to make money off all their followers, people who could never afford the high ticket, people who can.
If you were to say the price up front, only $5 ,000, you just excluded a huge segment of your market, which will never make money off. And I think about all the people, you think about all the people in your audience who would have loved to buy something from you, which you do have a low ticket. That was nice.
Think of all the people that did buy that, but never bought the high ticket. It's like, at least you got that money from that person. And so again, like in this industry, the answer is...
always just been like let's exclude let's exclude to make it work and then we have to increase the price of the back end and make the exclusion math work and at a certain point the price can't go any higher and the exclusion can't get any better and for example i was working with an operator uh and he works a big trading guru he's like pretty much a streamer at this point he's like top level like the trading guy like he's literally on kick i think and doing stuff so he's massive And they were, you know, came to me as the biggest info people in space do because the math doesn't make sense.
They're like, hey, we get too many calls where the head count, the setters we need, the closers we need doesn't make sense. And the quality is so bad that like we have all these closers taking terrible quality calls and it's a mess. We need a low ticket to then, you know, make money off everybody and also make a better person show on the phone call.
So what we did is we launched a $97 front end offer. They use that they're running it and it's crushing as a 5 % ascension rate from people by the 97 to the back end the cut the counters aren't all screwed up anymore and when they did a massive push and a challenge like on kick where you have like some of the most like low intent people if you're watching streams like low intent people they had the freaking low ticket offer pinned on those stream making money off that uh and imagine if they said a call funnel it's like you think you're gonna make money off a kid or some person watching a kick stream middle of the day like maybe some but again it's like we're making money off everybody so again the answer isn't Like we had the fun era of like one funnel away and just do one funnel and just one straight through path.
But now we're no longer in a one linear process. Like Ryan Clog and their company talk about Blake Wyatt, where it's like the value vortex, right? Multiple entry points.
We have, we don't have one front end page. Everyone thinks it's one front end page for a low ticket. You should see we're cranking out advertorials left and right.
We're cranking out quizzes. We're cranking like this. We're no longer in the era where you can just have one entry point and one little area.
Like even Hermosi has multiple entry points. Like this is, it's a dynamic industry and that was fun, but it's changed. Okay.
So let me, let me beef up his argument and give you a clear point to respond to. So I think the, he made a lot of points. I think the best one though is, is if you have a huge audience and some people are super broke, some people are good, whatever, it could just be absolute chaos.
So I'll give you an example. I did have a client, he was had around 800 ,000 followers and it was in the dating market and they were genuinely like very broke. Right.
So, you know, he was maybe thinking about doing a low ticket so he could liquidate all the broke people and then have a much more clear kind of ascension to high ticket and just have a leaner team and yada yada. So how would you respond to that? Well, if this like if we have an 800 ,000 person audience, why do we have to liquidate anything?
We already have the audience. Well, it's filtering and quality and efficiency more so. And then just and also, is it making more money because we're capturing the entire audience and then ascending the few people who can do high ticket?
I mean, that's his argument. Let me respond. Yeah, I mean, look, there are certainly extreme situations where that makes a lot of sense.
One thing that I do want to respond to that I think is quite interesting is you ever seen that meme of the Nigerian politician where he says something along the lines of, you know, I am against corruption unless the corruption is mine. And that's how I feel about you when you talk about being one funnel away. You know, you're like.
The one funnel away error is gone unless it's low ticket. And then that magically solves all of your problems. That's not what I said, but okay.
Well, this entire, I mean, you started with this same funnel of $17 to $27 product. I mean, at this point, I might know it as well as you do. All right, that's how many times we've gone through.
Yeah, the problem is working. So my point is, is that I think at the end of the day, funnels are tools. And there are certainly like, to be clear, to be totally clear, and this hurts my argument.
There are certainly very extreme examples where you have 30 million followers on YouTube. And yeah, like if Mr. Beast was like, how do I monetize 200 million people?
Like probably selling a $7 chocolate bar or however much it costs nowadays. I don't know. Inflation is crazy.
The point is, is probably monetizing that is a little bit easier with a low ticket funnel. But that is not 99 .9999999 % of people that are watching this podcast. Okay, that doesn't make it for a fun argument.
Because, or not a fun argument. It's like, there's nothing you could give me where an extreme example doesn't make sense for a low ticket. But we're giving you call funnel examples that are extreme.
And then it's like, yeah, sure, your low ticket makes sense. What's the extreme call funnel example? Well, no, what you're saying is like, oh, well, there's these stipulations.
Like there's some percentages. Like, yeah, extreme, it makes sense. And then you're saying like multiple phones for everybody.
It's like, I will die on the hill. that the math always makes more sense. There's not a single moment.
But it doesn't always make more sense. No, it doesn't. It will always make sense.
Lowering your cap and increasing your LTV will always make more sense. You make a full point, and then we're going to move on to the last question. Oh, no, I did.
The math makes sense. I don't even have to argue better. Okay, here's my point.
I'm not going to sit here and argue, oh, they buy more likely. I already said, no, they don't. I'm not going to say, oh, because they're more likely to ascend or the better lead quality, which, sure, that does happen.
All I'm saying is the financial model allows me to spend more money to acquire more people at a better number. It's like. But this assumes that it works, though.
You're just assuming it always works 100 % of the time. That's such a bad comeback, though, because I can say, it assumes your call funnel works. Okay, let's assume it's working.
Let's assume we have the best at call funnels and the best at low ticket. Well, let's assume my cost per call is $0. Okay, hold on.
Let's move on to the last question. This is impossible. Last question, fun one.
My call funnel could be $0. Last question. 200 % liquidation.
Mine is $0. Mark Zuckerberg pays you to run ads. Yes, I do.
I literally am getting paid to speak to run ads. If you're looking for a mastermind to take your business to 10 million a year plus, then you want to check out our eight -figure border mastermind. So after doing 100 million in total cash collected from my own companies, I've created a mastermind where I really pull back the curtain and show you exactly how I've done it.
So I not only share with you what's working for us across marketing, sales, fulfillment, operations, finance for all of our different companies. At the same time, you can network with some of the top people in the industry and also... listen to world -class speakers like Patrick David, Dean Graziosi, Neil Patel, Tom Bailu, and many, many others.
So if you're interested, check out the link in the description and get more info. That last question is a fun one. Which funnel makes you look more like a grifter?
A freaking funnel where it has a big claim. You know, hey, book a call. You'll make $5 ,000 freaking dollars.
And like, if it's biz off or just like book a call and do this, like, dude, you know what? Okay. There are YouTube videos right now.
People making fun of like the, the brezzes and the, you know, who are really mainstream now for their call phones. People don't know what the call funnel is like. Kids my age, I know you guys are unking like out of the touch with the 20 year olds, whatever.
We know these funnels. We are aware of them. We're resistant of them.
We will not go through them. They are annoying. The setter calls us.
Hey, I'm just bro. We know what the freaking setter is doing. And now they're like, this is so obvious.
They're switching to the base 44 offers. And now we're aware of that. Like this generation is so freaking aware of these funnels.
And so they would rather you go to them. Like, here's a product up front. Get ready to go.
Like, dude, this again, we're talking. like what's happening, where this is going. We're aware of this, we see it.
And so it's like, bro, of course it looks like a grifter. Will you see it? Oh, click on the link and buy on it.
It's like, oh my gosh. It's just like the old days when it said like, DM me this word for coaching. Oh, frick, here we go again.
Like we all are aware of it. The webinar phone. Okay, okay.
The webinar phone, aware of it. You respond. Grifter.
Yeah. Okay, well, let's zoom out for a second. Okay.
The low ticket funnel, as you've mentioned, is not a new concept. How long have you been doing low ticket funnels? The first low ticket funnel I ever built was pre COVID.
So it was like 2019, 2020. The first funnel did a million dollars in six months in the music industry. The first one I ever delivered.
Beautiful. I didn't ask all that. I just asked one, but thank you.
I don't have a belt, so I have to, you know. I get it, I get it. Well, as you know, low -ticket funnels have been around since before that.
And even back in the day, like a very notable example of this would be like 2017 when Russell Brunson launched Expert Secrets, right? All of his books were launched with a very traditional low -ticket funnel. Yes.
And there were videos back then of people making fun of people launching low -ticket funnels as, oh, this is free plus shipping. Like, oh yeah, of course it is, you know? Like, no, it's not.
Okay, and all this BS. So like. All your arguments that you can make, you can make either one.
So let me give you actually a good argument as to why low ticket requires you to be much more of a grifter than high ticket. That's because the biggest thing is you literally started this podcast by saying, hey, you sell a low ticket thing. They probably don't even go through it.
And then you ascend them to an upsell. Isn't that by definition being a grifter? Selling people things that they don't even use or don't even care about?
So I was texting, talking to Jason Fladlin. You know Jason Fladlin? I'm pretty sure he is.
I was texting Jason. Shout out to Jason Fladlin. We love you, Jason.
I love webinars. They're great. So I was texting him.
And what he agreed with on low ticket is that a low ticket offer is one of the most, like a very ethical way to show people that you're legit. Think, my offer is $17 and there's a 365 day money back guarantee. for a $17 product that we honor?
What shows I want to prove to you I'm good, that I'm ethical, before you ever see the high ticket offer, then that. Everyone in high ticket, it's like, trust me, you'll make this much money or you'll get your money back or something. And it's like, well, what are the stipulations?
Well, you have to do this, this, this, and this, and you'll never get your money back. That's what I think a grift is. Oh, and also put it on ClarityPay.
Go put it on financing. I'm saying, hey, come in, $17, see if I'm legit. Even if you don't go through it, you're going to look at my portal.
Wow, he actually delivered something. Oh, there's a community. Oh, he's showing up.
Oh, this person's texting me. Oh, they're calling me. They're supporting me.
And then they're offering an optional experience to the high ticket. The most grifty thing that I could have done with my back pain offer and say, hey, I really want to help you out of back pain. But guess what?
I won't help you unless you give me $5 ,000. That is so grifty. I know some people.
That's literally just basic business. No, again, sure. But here's the thing.
That's how the medical industry has worked for cash flow. Sure, cool. Yes, capitalism, great.
But here's the thing. With me, I'm more, less of a grift. More of a, less of a grift.
Because I'm saying $17 front end, get out of your pain, right? Boom. You can do it.
People get results. $17 will cure all your back pain. Okay.
And then you get out. So like, this looks like less of a grift. We take it because what he's saying is, is that you're able to actually demonstrate results in advance.
Yes. As you know, old school Frank Curd would say. For free, you can get a refund.
If you don't like it. What would you say? Bro, you're changing your arguments, dude.
Earlier in the podcast, you literally said, I'm going to sell this thing that nobody's going to go through. You literally said that earlier in the podcast. Now, suddenly this is going to solve everyone's back pain, dude.
Which one is it? Listen, even if they don't, here's, we know the stats. So if you go with any type of info offer, you'll have with low ticket, even you'll have like 50 % of people will like log in.
So actually go in and actually go through the product. That's on their choice. we have much more than 50 % of people log into our high ticket offers.
Okay, cool. Like significantly more. That would be like extraordinarily bad.
Yeah, your CAC is way higher though. But anyways, so now you have 50 % go in, 10 % will like, let's just say 10 % go through and get results. It's amazing.
The product in there will get results if you use it. But we know statistically, no matter how good of a product, how much we charge, even if it's high ticket, there's still going to be a percentage who will never. go through it.
We can't control that no matter how good of a product we create. What we can do is create the perception and show them that when they log in, there's support, there's a community, there is a real business. And so even if they don't go through, we can give them the proof.
that we're a legit company who will show up for them. We have a phone number. I have a phone team for customer support.
I have a phone team for customer support for a $17 offer. They could call us at any point and ask questions. You know what a grift look like?
You can't even find their main business. They have one funnel, a trust pilot that's been botted, and a bunch of freaking Reddit reviews getting deleted. I got one important note.
One thing you just said right there. is we're going to do this low ticket funnel and most people aren't even or half people aren't even going to go through it only 10 but we're creating the perception that it's good isn't that sound like a grift to you like why do we have to create the perception of anything because with people looks matter just like you coming in here with a nice suit a nice belt you're creating a perception that you're better or that you're better you're going to crush you've one last thing you're creating a perception all stuff that's the first thing i saw when you walk in very good perception like this is great now if i would have just walked out the door and didn't get to talk to you I wouldn't have gotten to get to know if you're actually a good person.
But being here, sitting with you, I've now seen, okay, you kind of back up the nice suit. You're tall, right? You're handsome.
Okay, he's actually legit. He can actually talk well. Great.
But again, your perception looks matter. So as much as you want to say, that's like, I'm doing it to actually like, it's good to do. Like, that's a good thing to do.
Perception, how it looks, how you walk into a house. All of that, the perception matters. As much as you want to ignore, it's not to manipulate them.
It's actually encourage them to use the product. Okay. So let's make a closing argument.
You can go and then you can close. Yes. High ticket is a substantially better model, regardless of whether you're a beginner.
you're advanced, you're at $1 a day in revenue, $0 a day in revenue. Hell, you're in credit card debt. I don't care.
Or you're doing a million dollars a month. It is substantially a much better model for a handful of reasons. And I will summarize them again.
Number one is simplicity. One of the most well -known sayings in the business world is simple scales. We want to make things simple and easy to repeat and easy to scale.
Okay. Number one. Number two.
The biggest thing is, is that we're setting the price anchor to further increase the LTV at a substantially high rate. And Josh will tell you that, yes, but only this percent of people will buy, but it doesn't matter. If 1 % of your people buy a $50 ,000 product, I would say that's a hell of a successful business in my personal opinion, okay?
Because that's a shit ton of money. So simplicity, setting the price anchor, and this is a big one that we haven't even had a chance to touch on, just getting to the fucking point. What I mean by that is, again, I'm someone like, if I'm in pain, right?
If I think of a business problem that I've had, you know, again, whatever it is, my ads are not working, my sales team's not working, whatever it is, right? Whatever the issue is, my low ticket funnel is not working. I don't want to have to jump through 47 hoops to get to a point where someone, I can get on a call with someone and they can help me.
I just want to pay a large amount of money to solve the problem. I want to get to the point. And I think fundamentally, The funnels that are doing the best today in 2026, or if you're watching this in 2027, the funnels that are doing best today in 2027, I just future -proofed our podcast right there, okay?
The funnels that are doing the best today are funnels that eliminate friction, that lower the amount of friction. And by having someone jump through a bunch of hoops of this order bump and that order bump, and they have the perception that this is not a grift or whatever all of that crap is, they just want to get to the point.
They have a problem and they want it solved. And regardless of whether you do low ticket or high ticket, you got to do a sales call. So there's no difference.
Let's just get to the point. Let's just sell the people that are in the most pain. And we can talk about everything else later.
That can take us to millions and millions and millions of dollars a month. Just like some of the examples that we've given. All right.
Closing argument. I feel like I'm listening to like a old, like when I was a kid, like a traffic and funnels webinar, trying to convince me to do fricking high ticket call funnels. Like those are all great arguments at that stage.
But this is, I'm not going to even like. I'm not even here to say the funnel. I don't care about the three pages.
I'm not going to like the actual funnel. What I care about is the math. Thank the Lord that I matured because of people who knew math and told me about, hey, guess what happened to your skill and actually look at the numbers.
And I was like, what is the best economic, the best financial models to do? I don't think that, you know, people like, so when I look up to like Ryan Clogg, so when we look up to economic wise, would be so diehard and focused on cracking direct to cart offers in their business if it didn't financially make more sense. Economically, the people who are crushing, the people who are bigger, doing millions, millions, millions of dollars a month.
Why are they coming? to me, coming to people in a low ticket and saying, Josh, help us solve for this. I can't ignore the math.
Before you start a business, you create a financial model. Before you launch any funnel, you create a financial model. And I have two sheets in front of me, the low ticket math there.
Again, if it works, sure, if it works, we can say it all day long. But guess what? We're resilient.
We're entrepreneurs. We're going to make it work. The math always makes more sense.
So don't leave this thinking, oh, it's because of the three steps in the funnel. It's because of the upseller. They buy more.
This is that. It's all about. the math.
If you sit down and bring a Google sheet in front of me, there's no way that you can show me that the math makes more sense because the math will never lie. All right. So is it one in the chat for Spencer and two in the comments for you?
One in the comments, two in the comments. That's right. That's right.
That's the chat. If you enjoyed this podcast, you're also probably going to like this podcast. I also did recently that you can check out by clicking the screen right here.
The Hook
The bait, then the rug-pull.
The cold open splices both debaters at full volume: one swearing the math always favors low ticket, the other calling the core low-ticket claim the biggest lie in the industry. What follows is a moderated fight across five questions, and the most useful moment is a concession nobody expects from the low-ticket side.
How they asked for the click.
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