20:57Think Media Podcast · Talking Head
Subscribers Don't Mean Much on YouTube (and that's good?)
Why YouTube's shift to "interest media" means your next video, not your subscriber count, decides whether it gets seen.
July 4thThe argument in one line.
YouTube's algorithm has gotten too smart for tags and keyword tricks to work anymore, so growth now comes from a repeatable idea-data-execution-analysis-longevity process and from staying predictable enough that an audience can count on you.
Read if. Skip if.
READ IF YOU ARE…
- A creator who wants a repeatable system for choosing which video idea to actually make, not just more inspiration.
- Someone running an established channel who wants to understand what click-through rate actually measures before optimizing for it.
- A business owner, coach, or local service provider weighing whether a YouTube channel belongs in the marketing mix.
- A creator who wants to branch into a new topic without losing the audience they already built.
SKIP IF…
- You're a total beginner who hasn't uploaded a single video yet. The framework here is for people who already have footage to analyze.
- You're looking for a growth hack or algorithm exploit. The whole point of this conversation is that those don't work anymore.
The full version, fast.
YouTube strategist Leroy ter Braak argues the algorithm got too smart for old exploits, tags, and keyword stuffing to matter anymore. He built the IDEAL framework (Idea, Data, Execution, Analysis, Longevity) to replace gut-feel video planning with a repeatable checklist. He also debunks click-through rate as a standalone success metric, since it naturally falls as YouTube shows a video to colder audiences past the first 48 hours. For creators wanting to grow beyond ad revenue, his advice is to build a product or service adjacent to what the audience already cares about, give value before ever pitching, and expand into new topics gradually rather than all at once.
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Create a free account →Who's talking.
00:00guestLeroy ter Braak
00:00hostMoritz Schröder
Where the time goes.
00:00 – 03:55
01 · Catching up: why the hiatus
Moritz calls out that Leroy hasn't posted on his own channel in over a year. Leroy explains the time cost of solo-producing analysis videos and prioritizing family and his 11 client channels.
03:55 – 06:22
02 · The unsexy truth: exploits are dead
Leroy argues YouTube hasn't fundamentally changed. The algorithm just got too smart for keyword stuffing and old-school exploits to work anymore.
06:22 – 14:26
03 · From Call of Duty clips to a 12-person agency
Leroy's YouTube origin story: starting at 13 with unwatched gaming clips, co-running a viral branded-content studio, then walking away from agency life to become a full-time YouTube strategist.
14:26 – 21:59
04 · The IDEAL framework
Leroy breaks down his five-step system for deciding whether a video idea should get made: Idea, Data, Execution, Analysis, Longevity.
21:59 – 24:33
05 · Why he won't take on total beginners
Leroy explains why complete beginners don't need, and shouldn't pay for, a strategist, and why the first ten videos should just be for finding out if you like making videos.
24:33 – 31:05
06 · What to outsource first
The rule isn't to always outsource editing. It's to outsource whatever part of the process you personally hate, since for some creators editing is the whole differentiator.
31:05 – 36:05
07 · Why CTR is overrated
Using a marker-shop analogy, Leroy explains why click-through rate only means something in a video's first 24 to 48 hours and can't be read in isolation after that.
36:05 – 42:17
08 · Branching out without losing your audience
The content-onion model for testing adjacent topics one small step at a time, illustrated with climber-turned-fitness creator Magnus Midtbø.
42:17 – 47:38
09 · SEO is dead too
Leroy says he no longer optimizes for search at all. YouTube's own understanding of video content has made keyword stuffing obsolete in favor of just solving the viewer's problem.
47:38 – 55:19
10 · Turning a channel into a real business
Case studies of channels built into revenue engines: a 71-year-old soil-products seller, a French food creator turned chicken-chain owner, and a dog-rescue channel launching an e-commerce brand.
55:19 – 1:01:38
11 · Selling without hurting the channel, and YouTube Shopping
Why giving value before asking for a sale protects long-term channel performance, plus Leroy's take on YouTube Shopping eventually outgrowing TikTok Shop.
1:01:38 – 1:02:05
12 · Close
Moritz thanks Leroy for the conversation.
Lines worth screenshotting.
- The era of gaming YouTube's algorithm with tags, keyword-stuffed titles, or repeating a keyword in the intro is over. None of it moves the needle anymore.
- Aim to generate about 50 video ideas a week and narrow to your top two or three. More shots at the idea stage means a higher chance of hitting a real winner.
- Views and impressions are the only two metrics that mean anything in isolation. CTR, retention, and everything else only make sense read together.
- A video can pull millions of views with a 2% CTR. That number looks like a failure in isolation but is normal once it's been shown far past the original core audience.
- Click-through rate only signals something in a video's first 24 to 48 hours, while YouTube is still mainly showing it to existing subscribers.
- Total beginners don't need a strategist. Let your first ten videos suck so you can find out whether you actually enjoy making them.
- Outsource whatever part of the process you personally hate, not whatever a generic list says to outsource. For some creators, editing is the whole differentiator.
- A credible pivot into a broader topic takes about a year of small steps: roughly one experimental video a month while staying predictable the rest of the time.
- He no longer optimizes videos for search at all. YouTube now transcribes and understands what a video is about, so keyword stuffing is wasted effort.
- A 71-year-old client selling soil products grew from 30,000 to nearly 80,000 subscribers in months, with product sales up about 80% and no extra ad spend.
- Give away real value for roughly your first ten videos before introducing any call to action. Audiences won't buy from someone unproven.
- He expects YouTube Shopping to eventually outgrow TikTok Shop on raw scale, but says it's still years away since shopping isn't yet top-of-mind for YouTube viewers, especially on TV.
Five checkpoints replace 'go viral' as the definition of a good video.
WHAT TO LEARN
Click-through rate, tags, and algorithm tricks are dead ends. Real growth comes from a repeatable idea-to-longevity process and from staying predictable enough that an audience shows up on purpose.
02The unsexy truth: exploits are dead
- The era of gaming YouTube's algorithm with tags, keyword-stuffed titles, or repeating a keyword in the intro is over. None of it moves the needle anymore.
- The algorithm has gotten good enough that it mostly just shows people what they already want to watch, so exploits from the platform's early years no longer work.
03From Call of Duty clips to a 12-person agency
- Ter Braak's first channel, unwatched Call of Duty clips, taught him that the addictive part of YouTube is making something and having even a few people watch it, not chasing an audience from day one.
- A three-person creative studio he co-ran made viral branded content, including one stolen clip that hit 90 million views, but still struggled to turn that into a full-time living because each video took three to four weeks to produce.
- He accidentally built a 12-person production agency working with Ubisoft and EA before realizing he preferred teaching creators over servicing brand committees, and went solo to focus on strategy instead.
04The IDEAL framework
- The IDEAL framework covers Idea, Data, Execution, Analysis, and Longevity. Each letter is a checkpoint a video idea has to pass before it gets made.
- In the Idea phase, aim for roughly 50 video ideas a week and narrow to your top two or three. More shots at the idea stage means a higher chance of hitting a real winner.
- In the Data phase, check whether anything similar has already proven itself on YouTube before you commit. You don't need the exact idea to have worked, just evidence people are interested in the topic.
- In the Execution phase, the bar isn't whether the idea is good but whether you can do it better than what's already out there, through expertise, editing, or storytelling.
- In the Analysis phase, watch your own video five times in full at different times of day and get other people to watch it too, so you catch the exact moments where attention drops before you publish.
- In the Longevity phase, ask two questions before uploading: am I excited to post this, and does it fit my five-year plan. A video you don't want to keep making isn't worth the short-term win.
05Why he won't take on total beginners
- He turns away total beginners on principle. If you've never uploaded a video, there's nothing to analyze yet and no way to know if you actually enjoy the process.
- His advice to anyone starting out is to let your first ten videos suck, to test whether you like making videos before spending money finding out how to make them better.
06What to outsource first
- The default move isn't to outsource editing or thumbnails specifically. It's to outsource whatever part of the process you personally hate, whatever that is for you.
- Some creators' editing style is their differentiator and should never be handed off. The real test is whether the task is a source of your success or just a chore.
07Why CTR is overrated
- Click-through rate only means something in the first 24 to 48 hours, while YouTube is still mainly showing your video to existing subscribers. After that it's shown to progressively colder audiences, so CTR naturally drops.
- Views and impressions are the only two metrics that tell you anything in isolation. Everything else, including CTR and average view duration, only makes sense alongside the others.
- A video can pull millions of views with a 2% CTR, a number that looks like a failure in isolation but is normal once it's been pushed far past its original core audience.
08Branching out without losing your audience
- If you want to pivot to a completely unrelated topic, start a second channel instead of trying to convert an existing audience into caring about something with zero overlap.
- Think of your content like an onion: test the layer immediately adjacent to your core topic, like cooking to vegan cooking, before moving further out.
- A credible pivot into a broader topic takes about a year of small, deliberate steps, roughly one experimental video a month while staying predictable the rest of the time.
- Predictability is what makes a channel snowball. Viewers who know what they're going to get keep coming back, and that repeat behavior is what the algorithm rewards.
09SEO is dead too
- He doesn't optimize videos for search at all, no keyword stuffing in titles, tags, or descriptions, because YouTube's system now transcribes and understands what a video is actually about.
- The reliable way to win search traffic is to make a video that actually solves the problem someone is searching for. The packaging can be creative, but keyword-cramming is wasted effort.
10Turning a channel into a real business
- Any business selling a product or service that skips a YouTube channel focused on organic content is leaving money on the table. The return on investment on an organic channel outperforms other channels when done well.
- A 71-year-old client selling soil products grew from 30,000 to nearly 80,000 subscribers in months, with product sales up about 80% and no extra ad spend, from videos that simply established him as the expert.
- Established creators building product lines should look for a brand adjacent to what their audience already cares about and already discusses in the comments, not a business unrelated to their content.
11Selling without hurting the channel, and YouTube Shopping
- Overtly sales-driven content can hurt average view duration in the short term, but at a year-long scale he's never seen a well-integrated sales angle actually damage a channel's reach.
- Give away real value for roughly your first ten videos before introducing any call to action. Audiences won't buy from someone unproven, no matter how good you think you are.
- He expects YouTube Shopping to eventually outgrow TikTok Shop on raw scale, but it's still years away because shopping isn't yet top-of-mind for people watching YouTube, especially on TV.
Terms worth knowing.
- The IDEAL Framework
- A five-step checklist, Idea, Data, Execution, Analysis, Longevity, used to decide whether a video idea is worth making before it goes into production.
- Click-through rate (CTR)
- The percentage of people who click a video after seeing its thumbnail and title. Useful mainly in the first 24 to 48 hours, before YouTube widens the audience beyond existing subscribers.
- Geolocking
- An older YouTube behavior where the algorithm favored showing a video to viewers in the uploader's own country, making it harder for non-US or non-English creators to reach a global audience.
- Content onion
- A way of expanding a channel's topic gradually, one adjacent layer at a time, instead of jumping straight from a core topic to something unrelated.
- YouTube Shopping
- YouTube's built-in checkout feature that lets viewers buy a product without leaving a video, positioned as a future competitor to TikTok Shop.
Things they pointed at.
41:01channelMagnus Midtbø
55:23channelJohn and Bob's Smart Soil Solutions
58:14channelAlex Hormozi
58:49channelFast Good Cuisine
59:59channelGolden Kobe Family
Lines you could clip.
17:47
“Try to get yourself into a rhythm and pattern where you at least are going to be able to get like 50 ideas for videos per week.”
24:05
“You do not need me. You do not need to pay me. You do not need to pay any of these course kids nowadays.”
32:03
“Let's say you have a marker that you're trying to sell to anyone, someone.”
35:14
“I have videos that I've done like just in the past few months that have done millions of views, like 5, 10, whatever million views with a 2% CTR.”
20:27
“Are you excited to upload this video? If that answer is a no, we don't upload it.”
38:23
“Think of your channel like an onion.”
56:43
“You need to give a lot before people will be willing to buy anything.”
04:45
“That era of YouTube is kind of over.”
Where the conversation goes.
00:00 – 03:55sparseCareer catch-up and why Leroy paused his channel
03:55 – 06:22steadyState of the YouTube algorithm (exploits are dead)
06:22 – 14:26steadyLeroy's origin story
14:26 – 21:59denseThe IDEAL framework
21:59 – 31:05steadyWorking with beginners vs experienced creators
31:05 – 36:05denseMetrics: CTR and data literacy
36:05 – 42:17steadyContent strategy and audience expansion
42:17 – 47:38steadySearch and SEO on YouTube
47:38 – 1:01:38denseMonetization and business models beyond ad revenue
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metaphoranalogystory
I am excited to have you on. You are one of the leading YouTube strategists out there. You have worked with a lot of major creators.
You have inspired a lot of people who want to think about YouTube, not just from a creative point of view, but also from a business strategy point of view, who want to make YouTube something that they can incorporate into their business strategy. I do want to start off by saying, though, that I do have a bone to pick with you.
Oh, I love it. Let's do it. You have an amazing YouTube channel.
You have made videos about how creators have gotten as big as they have. You have analyzed the strategy that they have followed to amass millions and tens of millions of subscribers. You have not posted on that channel in over a year.
What's going on, man? So there's a few things going on here. And I've heard this quite a few times in the past year.
So one of the most important reasons why I'm not really posting there anymore is time. Making these videos cost me a lot of time. Instead of what most people would do is outsourcing most of the work, I did pretty much everything myself except the editing, like the research, everything else.
And sometimes it took me up to a week to make those videos. And I'm just super busy. I work with 11 creators every single week.
So it's 11 different channels with different objectives, different goals. And at some point, you know, I just as a dad, you know, you have to make you have to make choices. And I choose to, you know, maybe one day I'll come back to it.
But for now, I just have to focus on the things that are most important to me and my business and my family life. Also very important. May I hear you?
I had a YouTube channel for close to 10 years and was in the end having some good momentum there. And then I had kids and then I had a second kid. And now I have a three year old and nine months old.
And I mean, I love it. I love every second I have with them. But they do take the time that I usually would spend making videos because I was doing it on the side.
It was not my main job. Right. So.
When in the past I had the evenings to myself where I would have the weekends to myself, all of that time is now absorbed by family life. And I completely feel the pain in terms of not being able to create as much. I do have to say, though, you have four videos on that channel and you have close to 80 ,000 subscribers.
I think that is the most insane ratio of made videos to a mass subscribers that I've ever seen. It just. shows that people love that kind of video that you were making in the past.
And I do think you should at some point return to it. I for one would love to see that. Yeah, yeah.
I think I should like I've been thinking about it quite a bit. It's like, okay, if I can make the time I want to return to it. But also, those subscriber numbers definitely like got propped up by the fact that you know, a lot of people already knew me by then.
And so it's not like, you know, I started from absolutely zero and had to build my way up to some type of credibility. Just to say, you know, it's not as it wouldn't be it wouldn't have been as easy if I was just a complete nobody that had no network or no name in the industry. But that definitely helped.
So I want to give that, you know, that little side note here. At least you should get it to 100. Right.
So you can get one more play button added to the collection behind you. Yeah, that's true. So I have two other ones.
I have two new ones coming. And I think another million subscriber plaque like within the next two -ish months. So I'm running out of space.
So maybe I shouldn't. Yeah, you got to get new shelves. You got to get a bigger house to make space for all these play buttons.
I just moved here. I just moved here. I've been here for like three months.
Tough problems to have. Man, I'm so excited to speak with you and hear everything about how you actually approach YouTube. Also in 2026, because...
Many people have been doing YouTube for a while. They might do things that worked five years ago and just don't work anymore, right? Certain strategies become outdated.
Certain things change in the algorithm, in the platforms, in what people like to watch. So maybe we can start there. What do you see right now that maybe people are sleeping on or that you have had great success with that is not yet mainstream?
Well, I think... This is a very unpopular and unsexy opinion, I think. But in the absolute essence, YouTube hasn't changed in the sense that people will still watch things that they want to watch.
And the algorithm will still serve the videos to people that they think they want to watch. So it's back in the day when I started and that's like... a pretty long time ago now there were a lot of things that you could do let's call them exploits you know like little things that you could do to get your video in front of more people faster um that that era of youtube is kind of over you know the algorithm is super smart now and um it's been better than ever before And I don't think there's anything like exploits or things that people are sleeping on, except the fact that there are still people that think that there's a way to gain the algorithm, that there's a way to like, oh, I should put in all the tags or I should, you know, say the word that the video is about 20 times in the intro or like put the keywords in the title.
All that stuff is actually not really helping you at all anymore. That era of YouTube is over. So it's become more and more apparent that in this era of YouTube, it is more important to make videos that people actually want to watch, but also make videos that add something to what's already out there.
Yeah, I think a lot of people, especially the ones that are not having success, always look for that magic pill, right? And that's not just true for YouTube. That's true for any aspect of people's lives, right?
are overweight and they want that magic pill that helps them lose weight. They want to buy that secret formula hack that will make them get six pack abs in the next five weeks. And life generally just doesn't work that way.
As you said, in the very early days of YouTube, there were some things that you could do to gain the algorithm and at least for a short period, maybe gain some traction that way. But those days are in fact over. When you started out, how did that look like for you?
What got you into YouTube in the first place? And what made you stick around for as long as you have now? So I'll try to keep this short, but it's a long story because I've been on YouTube for a pretty long time.
But I started on YouTube when I was like around 13. So like that's, I'm 32 now. So it's a long time ago.
That's the best age according to MrBeast, right? That's when you should be starting. But that's when I really started like.
making videos because i loved making videos i did it before youtube really was a thing like i loved being creative and make my own little short movies and sketches with friends and um so i started back then and and and i think the first channel i did was a channel where i shared my call of duty gameplay clips that nobody wanted to see rightfully so because i wasn't even that good at call of duty but i thought i was giving the world like i was doing the world a huge favor by showing them how i you know my kill cams but uh um that's that was my first ever channel um and i had a lot of fun doing it um and it made me really realize like how much fun it is to like be creative and put something out there and have a few people watch it and it was a very addicting feeling to me so once i really got into youtube like back then like you were like you were bullied if people found your youtube channel like in school they're like you make youtube videos like why like that's so that's so nerdy
So that was something that I kept under wraps for as much as I could because I didn't want to be that kid in class. But over the years, I just kept making videos. I did a bunch of different things and with varying success.
Some of the ideas that I had did really well and got like 50 ,000, 60 ,000 views. And back then, that was a lot, especially in the Netherlands where I'm from. But I also had videos that did absolutely nothing.
And I started channel ideas that did absolutely nothing. It was a bunch of failing and figuring it out. watching all the creators, especially in the US when I was back in the Netherlands, because, you know, they are a few years ahead of where we were, especially back then.
But I think it was around when I was 19, when I really wanted to start like seriously do something with YouTube. And like two worlds kind of collided. I was at a birthday party of a good friend of mine.
And I sat next to someone who had a YouTube channel with his brother. His name was Thomas. It was called CFX Squad.
And they started it and they were like, you know, like, hey, we... we would love like your help with this channel and actually like make this a bigger thing so for me it was like hey you know why not let's let's work together and and start this uh like restart this channel and so we did and we had good success we we made videos together with some of the biggest game publishers in the world and we kind of made like short movies with like visual effects and that kind of stuff so we did like battlefield in real life or pop g in real life those videos did really well and our content got stolen all over the world and we had a guy on facebook steal our content i did 90 million views and our stuff was shown on all like news outlets all around the world and you know we had a a lot of fun but even when then uh it was hard in the netherlands to like earn like a full -time living out of it especially if you were like three people and our videos took like three three to four weeks to make sometimes from you know pre -production to actually uploading it so we realized like okay this might like
It's going to be hard to make this our career just based off this. And especially because the algorithm was different back then. You had like more, what we call like geolocking, where if you post it from the Netherlands, the algorithm would show you to, you know, people in and around the Netherlands.
And we made content in English. And especially back then, a lot of the people were like, why are you making English content? Just talk Dutch, you know, like why are you doing this?
And so we were like really fighting an uphill battle. But we had all these game publishers that we worked with, Ubisoft, EA, that were like, hey, you know, we love what you guys do. Would you want to do that for us as well?
So accidentally, we started kind of a creative production agency that was not necessarily in the works. But I remember blinking my eyes and five years later, we were like a 12 people full time team in a brick and mortar office. I was like, wait, what happened now?
Like, where did the YouTube go? So we still did YouTube for fun, but it wasn't the same as it was back when I was younger. And I still helped other creators that became friends of ours over time.
And I had a lot of fun helping them. So I was kind of doing YouTube strategy work before it existed. I just didn't know it back then.
So around the time when I was 28... I really felt the pull to go back to the creator side of the table. Like I've been a little bit like an in -betweener for years now.
Like I've worked with brands and I've helped like creative friends. And I was like, I really didn't enjoy working with brands that much simply because you have, especially with the big brands, you have a lot of people in between, you know, that have to make a decision that don't necessarily understand how the internet works or YouTube works.
And, you know, before you know it, your great idea comes back. you know chewed and spit out and looks nothing like it was before and i was like you know i don't really like this anymore so at some point i realized like i want to go back to what i was doing before and did that you know sold my shares in the business and then went solo again um and fast forward to now i've been solo all that time i work with some of the coolest creators in the world and my love for youtube is Stronger than ever.
You said that you wanted to return to being a creator of sort. Was it then already clear to you that while also creating, you wanted to consult others, help others grow and really turn it into a business that goes way beyond just ad revenue? Or was that just something that happened organically as you ventured out on your own?
Well, so what I've what I realized over the years is that um as in my 20s when we were working with a bunch of brands and and like their social uh departments is i really love teaching especially like the teaching part of you know like why does something work on youtube and why do people click this and why did people you know stop watching it four minute 40 for like 30 of people like left all that stuff like explaining that to people was something that i really really enjoyed and especially that moment Where you kind of see something click in someone's eyes like, oh, now I get it.
Like that was super addicting to me. And so I realized that if I wanted to go back to YouTube, I didn't want to be a YouTuber anymore. I, you know, in my 20s was like that was an era of self -discovery.
And one of the things I discovered is that I've definitely have ADHD. And I find it really, really hard to do the same thing over and over again. I need novelty.
So I just kind of, when I decided to go back to YouTube, looked at like, okay, who am I and what am I good at? And I realized I shouldn't be running one channel because that makes me unhappy over, let me do that for three months. And I'm like, okay, now I need to like come up with another idea that's pretty much the same to what I did last week, but a little bit different.
And so I remember when I went back into the industry like full time and... talking to people that I still had in my network, I realized there were a few other people who were now YouTube strategists. And I was like, wait, this is something that is a full -time gig now.
And I've done it for the past 10 years with a lot of fun. This is what I need to do. You know, I get to be creative.
I get to be, like, I don't have to be the person on camera anymore. I don't have to do the same thing over and over again. But I, you know, I can work with 10 channels at a time.
It's like, amazing, great. Let me just do that. Went back into the business, started, I think now four or five years ago, full time again, at least.
And yeah, five years ago, almost five years ago. And yeah, everything's history now. I've, you know, I've worked my way up.
I've had some great successes over time. And I don't see myself quitting anytime soon. So you found the perfect fit for someone with YouTube experience, but also ADHD and wanted to have as much novelty as possible in your day -to -day work.
I mean, that's amazing. And it's so cool nowadays that... Things like that can actually be a job, right?
I mean, 10, 15 years ago when you would have your high school graduation coming up and your parents would sit you down and be like, okay, Leroy, what do you want to do with your life? I guess YouTube strategist was not on your key card. No, it didn't even exist.
So, you know, like I couldn't make up the whole role. But I mean, yeah, I could have never imagined that this is where my life would head. But I think for the person that I am and for my character, this is...
the best thing for me. And like I said, I hope to do this until I'm very gray and very old and be at some point have the world record of being the oldest active YouTube strategist in the world. That's a good goal to have.
So you said you had friends already doing YouTube strategy as a profession, but then you did work through all the experience that you had, all the content that you have created over the time, over your period of. career up until that point and actually came up with your own framework that you now apply to your clients and to the work that they're doing together with you.
It's the ideal framework. Can you break that down for the listener and explain what you mean by that? Yeah, of course.
First and foremost, let me preface by saying this. This is a framework or system that I've created over the years by simply doing, right? So I've, you know, I failed and succeeded many, many times now.
And one of the biggest issues that you have as someone that wants to teach other people what I do is that you have to kind of systemize it. You have to framework it. You know, nine out of 10 times nowadays, I can go off of gut feeling and just like a few processes that I have in my day to day.
But I started thinking a few years ago, really like, okay, how can I teach other people how I work in a way that is repeatable? So that's when over the last few years, I've been working hard on, you know, crystallizing out like, what is that framework? And it became the ideal framework.
And it stands for idea, data, execution, analysis, and longevity. So every letter kind of stands for a step in my process of figuring out. Is this a video that I should make?
And does this help my long term goals? So how deep do you want me to go? Do you want me to explain the whole framework?
Oh, I got you. I'm sure you do. Yeah, maybe you can give us a quick overview and then we can dive deeper into aspects of it.
I have a lot of questions around it. Yeah, of course, of course. So the the I like I said, the I stand for idea.
That's the most important thing. Like YouTube is a game of odds, but also a domino effect. So if your first domino doesn't fall, the rest is not going to fall.
So the most important thing that you focus on on a week -to -week basis as a creator is coming up with the right ideas. And a lot of creators, especially beginners, tend to have this almost like toxic believers, like, okay, I'm just going to think of a video idea for 10 minutes and then I'm just going to make the video that I think is best.
Like making that one idea that you have a week is not the best idea that you could have. I can guarantee you that. So what I say in the idea phase is, you know, try to get yourself into a rhythm and pattern where you at least are going to be able to get like 50 ideas for videos per week.
And then you bring it down to like the top two, maybe top three, if you have a really good week. Reason why? The more you shoot and, you know, the bigger the chance that you'll hit the bullseye.
so in the idea phase like that is like really that first domino like focusing on how do you do ideation there's different methods of doing ideation it's like looking for outliers on youtube that have done really well for other creators before spinning that in your own way you know there's a ton of ways that we can go about ideation and we can go deeper into that if you want later um then you have the the d stands for uh data so in the ideation framework the d for data means that you are if you have those top two ideas you're going to be able to say like okay do i have any proof that this has done well on youtube in any way shape or form before right that is essentially what you want to know right like as i said youtube is a game of odds so if you want to increase the odds in your favor you want to have proof that people have clicked this before and people liked it before so again Go over the data.
Like you start doing research on YouTube about this idea. I'm not saying like people have to have done that idea exactly the way you did it, but there needs to be proof that people are interested in this. Now, then it comes down to the E in the ideal frameworks, execution.
Execution is simply once you have the data, like, okay, I have the idea. I have the data to support that this is a good idea. Now it comes down to execution.
Can you do something better? than what's already out there on YouTube. Maybe you can go a lot deeper into the expertise because you're an actual expert, or maybe your editing and storytelling is way better than what's already out there.
You want to bring something new to the table, or else you're going to be battling for the same attention with videos that are maybe slightly better than yours, and you're going to be losing that. Then we have the A for analysis. Now, once you've made this video, you want to analyze before you even upload, watch the video.
Five times in full at different moments in the day. Ask your friends to watch the video. Try to figure out like, hey, where are moments where people get disinterested or they start like maybe in the video, they start looking outside for a second.
Like, well, okay, well, I lost them there for a second. Analyze what you can tighten up in your storytelling, in your editing, et cetera, et cetera. And then the last, and this is for me and my creators that I work with.
And this is the same for creators who are in the tens of millions of subscribers. you know, in the sub 100 ,000 subscribers is the L for longevity. And I almost have like a checkbox here where I ask the most important question is, are you excited to upload this video?
If that answer is a no, we don't upload it. And we are not going to make it because you do not want to be pigeonholed into like, what if this video does really well? Oh, crap.
You know, now I'm in a situation where I have to do more of this if I want to, you know, be able to pay the bills or whatever your business goals might be. And that's also, that ties into my second question that we ask in the longevity phase is, does this tie in with our five -year plan? Whatever that five -year plan is for the business, for your private life, for everything.
There are creators who want to, you know, start their YouTube channel and their whole idea is like, okay, in five years, I want to be the most famous person in the world. I want to have 70 supercars and a big ranch and a big this and a big that. Okay, if that is your goal, then we need to make sure that every brick that we lay gets you closer to that goal.
If your goal is to be independent and live on Bali or somewhere in Thailand and make enough to do the least amount of work possible, that's also great. These are questions that we ask before we upload because I've seen it many times before where creators have a video that goes viral and they regret it. a year down the line.
So that is pretty much the ideal framework in a nutshell. Yeah, I think you touched on a lot of interesting things there. And I can totally see from my YouTube experience how...
any successful video would fall into that framework and follow these steps. I think what makes a teacher great like yourself is that you were able to boil it down to that strategy. I think a lot of people might even have that viral moment, right?
They might have an amazing video or several in a row, but they don't know why. And they would. not be able to repeat it if their life depended on it.
They just stumble from one minute to the next, hoping that they get lucky twice. So it's fantastic to have someone like you who actually knows the underlying strategy behind it and can repeatedly teach that process. How do you feel about teaching that to people who have not had success yet, though?
Because I would imagine that there's an issue of what you can't know what you don't know, right? Like you might tell them like, okay, you need to work on your execution and you need to tighten up your script.
But if you don't know what you don't know, you don't know what it means to tighten up your script if you've never had a tight script before. Do you then workshop together with them or do you let them send the script to you before they go record and you make adjustments? How does that work like on a day -to -day basis with your clients?
Yeah, so there's not a lot of creators that I work with on a day to day that are like completely inexperienced. And the reason for that is very simple. They can't afford to work with someone like me and they shouldn't.
You know, I've had people in the past who were multimillionaires that were like, hey, I want to like venture into YouTube and they do have that money, but they are super inexperienced. If that happens, nine out of 10 times I tell them like, listen, just make a few videos yourself. And then I have something to analyze and have something to teach you because now you have tangible things that you made or you and your team made.
And now I can tell you like, hey, this is why this didn't work. This is why this is great. This is why we need to improve that.
So when it comes to a complete beginner, I always say, I actually tweeted about this yesterday. Like you do not, if you are a complete beginner, you've never uploaded on YouTube. You do not need me.
You do not need to pay me. You do not need to pay any of these course kids nowadays that like flex a wealthy lifestyle. It's like, oh, you know, become a YouTube automation expert like me.
Don't do it. Like, you know, the fun of YouTube, in my opinion, is to at least the first 10 videos just suck, right? Just try, you know, like just get your feet wet.
Just try it out and see if you like the process because the problem is if I would want to... Like, like teach this to someone who's never done it before. It's kind of like you're telling, you know, I'm a huge football fan.
I'm going to say football, although I am in the U S I'm still European. So it's football. If you've never kicked a ball, if you've never kicked a ball before, what is the use of me telling you like how, where you should position your foot on a free kick?
Like there's no, there's no use. Like just first figure out if you really enjoy football. And if you do, and you've tried and you've, you know, you've been kicking the ball.
You've been wanting to improve, then come to someone like me because now I also have a frame of reference. So I would never try to teach what I teach to someone who's never made a video before simply because they don't even know if they like making videos. So why spend thousands of dollars on, you know, someone like myself to help you figure out if you like something.
You can do that for pretty much for free. Yeah, and the barrier of entrance is so low, right? I mean, everybody has an iPhone in their pocket.
Film 10 videos, get them out there, suck at it, and then see how you can improve. I would also imagine, I mean, there's so many nuances to making a good video. drilling deeper in the framework that you just laid out.
I mean, you have like the lighting and the vocal tonality and vocal projection of the presenter and the camera, all the equipment, all of that needs to come together. So for you to then start with an inexperienced person and be like, okay, the first sentence you should have gone up with your voice instead of going down or whatever, it's not the right place to start.
You got to start with the basics and then work your way up. from there absolutely agree um are there parts of that framework your ideal framework where um you have to adjust it on a client to client basis depending on the industry they're in depending on the kind of videos they want to make whether it's educational or entertaining or a mix of the both um or is it that you can, let's say, 90 % copy paste that framework because it works for anyone equally well who wants to have videos that do well on YouTube.
Yeah, so I would say like the absolute foundation of the framework stays the same. Like it's the same, doesn't matter what videos you make for what audience, that's always the same. Now, the concrete that you pour into that foundation, that might differ.
That, you know, that chemistry of that concrete might differ from channel to channel. There's, of course, always, again, like you said, nuance to YouTube, right? Like one of the things that people need to understand that listen to like this podcast or any other interview that I've done, like I always say this, there is not one magic pill, right?
Like I also still have it wrong. People just pay me because I have it wrong like a little bit less amount of times than a beginner or an intermediate creator, right? So there's like the framework is there to give you the...
the foundation to make the right decisions every time that you make a video. And that doesn't change niche per niche. You mentioned that a lot of the people that you work with are not absolute beginners.
They have tried and possibly failed with YouTube to some extent, but at least they have some experience. And then you have other clients that are already very successful, but want to take things to the next level. I think one of the sticking points that people experience when they grow on YouTube is that there comes a point where you.
and probably shouldn't do every single step of the process yourself anymore, right? In order to streamline the process and make it repeatable and also a bit more time efficient, you probably should outsource some parts. And you are the guy that they outsource strategy to, at least to some extent.
What are other parts of the process that you think people should outsource as soon as possible? Are there things that you... repeatedly see freeing up a lot of time for creators who are a one man or one woman show at the beginning and then want to grow things progressively further where you're like, OK, you should really get someone to, I don't know, make your thumbnails or you should really get someone to do your editing.
What is your advice that you see work well there? Yeah, so here again, like the answer isn't as straightforward as most people would think, because it's the same as in any business. If you're an entrepreneur, like now you are.
you know, a content creator. So you're an entrepreneur on YouTube. My first gut reaction is always outsource the things that you hate.
That's the first thing. If you are, if you love editing, like, yes, I could make a great case and be like, oh, that's one of the most time intensive things you're doing. But if you love it, if you love that process, then who am I to tell you that you should outsource that?
You know, there's going to be a point maybe in time where this creator will themselves figure out like, oh man, if I would be able to train someone to edit like me, And maybe I just do like every like every three videos I edit, you know, maybe I could upload a little bit more. But to me, like one of the most important things is figuring out like where like if you are making a little bit of money, what do you not enjoy?
Let's try to outsource that as soon as possible. For some people, it's thumbnails. For others, it's editing.
For others, it's script writing. If they script write because not all creators I work with script write even like some we just bullet point with. I think it depends a lot on where are your strengths?
What do you enjoy? And what don't you enjoy? So, you know, I wouldn't say, oh, editing.
It depends. You know, maybe your editing is like your fingerprint. Like that is what makes your content so unique.
And I can tell you 10 creators now that I know would never, never, ever outsource their editing because it's the biggest part of their success because of their style and just their knack for like what needs what. This is not a satisfying answer to someone maybe, but I would say if you're a creator, just write down what do I do in a day to day and what do I absolutely despise every time I have to do it.
That's the first thing to go. Yeah, I think that's good for people to hear. I think you and you touched on that earlier.
I do think it's important to find. system that works for you in the long run right so if you do things for every video that you hate and that's the majority of the time that you spend on that video but you hate it um then probably that's your cue to get rid of that um i I want to talk with you a little bit about data around YouTube and the data that creators have access to, how they should look at it, and how a professional like you looks at it.
Because I do think that there's probably quite some difference from someone who is very new to, let's say, YouTube studios and looks at, okay, this is my view or my subscriber count or whatever. And then someone like you who has been doing this for close to 20 years. I, for example, heard you talk on other podcasts about how you are not subscribed to the idea that click -through rate is as important as people make it out to be.
Can you elaborate a little bit on that? Because I think that's quite contrarian for a lot of people out there. A lot of people think, okay, click -through rate and then retention are the two most important things that you should have covered.
But you disagree with that. I'll give you a good, I'm trying to, I'm going to try and give you a good analogy of why I do not subscribe to that. idea that CTR is the most important metric or that it's like a metric for success or at least like a metric that will predict how successful you'll be.
Bear with me. I'm making up this analogy on the fly, but I think this will help people understand it. Let's say that you're trying to sell to anyone, someone.
Now, let's say that you have a store that just sells markers. So you have your existing client base that comes to you. They're like.
I love Moritz's markers. Like his markers are the best markers. I always get my markers at Moritz's shop.
Great. Now let's say that you start advertising your markers because you're like, you know, I want to get more people to see my markers and buy my markers and my pens and my whatever I'm selling in this store. If you would show a new marker to, you know, people that already have been to your shop before.
there's a big chance that the amount of the take rate, so the people that will be like, I want that, I want to have that, will be pretty high. Now, let's say that you go onto the streets of Stockholm and there's everyone's walking there, right? Like we're on a big square somewhere.
There's people that are interested in markets and people that are not necessarily interested in markets, et cetera, et cetera. And you will be standing there and be like, who wants to buy this market? This is the best market in Stockholm.
That take rate will go down significantly. And the reason why is because you're now reaching people that are not necessarily in the market for a marker. And that is the same thing with CTR.
So CTR, in my opinion, is important in the first 24 to 48 hours. If you have a channel that has a somewhat established core audience already, aka your marker buyers that have been in your store time and time again. you will see that if it's a product that people have liked before that you've made, now it's a marker, the take rate will be pretty high.
Same goes for videos. If you make videos about how to get better at math or algebra and your next video is like algebra explained in 42 minutes, there's a big chance that people who have enjoyed your videos before will click that again because you just made a predictable new video that's in the same realm that your audience has shown before that they've liked.
Now, let's say that after 48 hours, we go up to the big square. So now we see more and more people that, you know, not necessarily that interested in algebra, but there's some adjacency to it. You will see that the take rate goes down.
Why? Well, it's simply a matter of, you know, YouTube is taking your video and it's like, hey, you know, like your core really liked it. I think I know some people who are similar to Johnny and Bobby.
Let me show them to those kinds of people as well. Naturally, your CTR goes down. So CTR in itself, like as an isolated metric, it only tells you really one thing.
In the first 24 hours, does your current existing audience like this idea and the way it's packaged? After that, CTR is just, you know, it can go up. I have videos that I've done like just in the past few months that have done millions of views, like 5, 10, whatever million views with a 2 % CTR.
Now, if I would show that CTR in isolation to someone, be like. Can this video go viral? And I just show the CTR.
I can guarantee you that there are even going to be strategists. They're like, that is pretty low. I don't think this can go viral.
Now, when I show the full screenshot, they'll be like, oh, okay, I was wrong. And that is the exact problem that happens when it comes to data. There's a lot of data you cannot look at in isolation.
You just can't. And CTR is one of them. Like all the metrics together can tell a story, but...
The only two metrics that mean anything in isolation are views and impressions. That's it. Everything else you need to look at in conjunction with all the other metrics.
Right. And you also need to know where in the timeline that video lies, right? I mean, if it was published five hours ago, then maybe 2 % CTR is...
in fact, not that great because it was only shown to your core audience. Whereas if the video is six months old and it still has like a 2 % CTR, that's fantastic if it was shown to a broader audience. How would you suggest people who want to branch out a little bit from their core audience?
And I think a lot of medium -sized creators are thinking about that. They have one thing that maybe... got their initial core audience for them and then they want to touch on other topics that are a little bit adjacent and maybe not exactly what the core audience subscribe to, but there are some aspects that still relate to them, hopefully.
How should they strategize about that? Is that something where you still make videos that are very close to the initial content that you made and then you make some others that are a little bit of a gamble or do you try to merge different aspects of the content? content that you made in the past and the content that you want to make in the future what's the best way to go about that yeah so now let's say that you um there's two ways to go about this let's say that you want to do something completely different right like you've made cooking content for the past four years and now you want to make content about the war in the middle east start a new channel you know start just start a new channel like exactly like do not even try like just Start a new channel.
And if your livelihood is dependent on YouTube, keep doing the cooking thing. Make sure that that supports you while you build up this other channel. But just start a new channel.
No way that you're going to be able to do that transition cleanly. And it's just, in my opinion, way too risky. Now you're gambling a whole business for it.
Now let's say that you want to go from cooking to you want to also incorporate, I don't know, like vegan eating or baking or... a healthy lifestyle in general, I always tell creators like one of the biggest things that makes a YouTube channel successful fast, and I've grown quite a few small channels into niche dominators in just a matter of months using this thing is you want to be predictable.
If you are predictable to your viewer, people will come back and that snowball will accumulate more snow, will become bigger, bigger, bigger. Now, let's say that you are at some point you want to start making videos that are a little bit like, you know, like, hey, you know, I'm making cooking content now, but I want to get into more overall healthy lifestyle.
I want to incorporate some fitness stuff with it. Think of your channel , like, you know, like you have the core layer of the onion is that's cooking. Now, what is the like the first layer outside of that that I could like test in a video with?
And, you know, that could be baking or it could be like, you know, vegan, like the the best vegan alternative for lasagna. I don't know.
I'm just making this up as we go. That would be the first little step is like, okay, this is not like a little bit more tailored and targeted towards someone who's like, I don't know, health garden. I mean, I eat meat, so I don't, not the target audience here, but you know, like someone that's more like looking at their diet, et cetera, et cetera.
A good pivot or a good like broader channel takes at least a year. of experimenting to get there. And that's what like you do kind of like micro hops between your content.
So you started with cooking. Now you're starting to do a vegan video maybe a month later. And then a month later, maybe like you incorporate the cooking with something workout related, like how to cook and work out at the same time.
You know, that could be something that you might experiment with. The only thing that you want to be aware of is you want to stay predictable. So let's say you make one video a week.
So let's say four videos a month. take one video to be a little bit more experimental every single month. And that like gets you closer to that next layer of the onion.
If you do it that way, it is almost impossible to not get to where you want to be as long as whatever that broader thing that you want to be is not too far removed from what made you successful in the first place. I think one creator that did that exceptionally well that I follow is Magnus Midbo, the climber guy from Norway.
He started out. as a professional climber initially, and then started making content around climbing naturally. And he did a decent job with that.
I think he made climbing more popular than it otherwise would have been just through his content. But then he ventured out into more fitness related topics. Generally, he had collaborations with other people that are not climbers.
So this way he expanded his subscriber base with... staying true to what he initially was doing. And he still occasionally makes climbing videos, but it's not the only thing he does.
And I think now he's at around 3 million subscribers or something like that. He would have probably not gotten there had he only talked about climbing and bouldering. So I do think if you have really high aspirations in terms of subscriber count, you also...
at some point have to branch out a little bit from the initial niche that you started out in. Absolutely. No, 100%.
And that's like, you know, again, coming back to like, what are your goals for, you know, your YouTube career? There's a lot of people that, you know, just want to be able to make a nice 5 ,000 a month and like, you know, live their life and that's it. Like they have no intention of being famous.
They just want to be, you know, talking about model trains or whatever it is and make enough money to do so. And that's great. You know, like that is like what I think is awesome about YouTube.
You do not have to become a celebrity to make, you know, a living on the platform. But if you, you know what you said, if you want to be someone that is known in general entertainment, then yeah, you need to have a good plan to kind of venture out, like from where you start being your expertise or being your hobby to then, okay, how do we get to those outside layers of the onion?
And I think Magnus is a good example of someone who's been. It's almost strategic about the collaborations he's done and making climbing more mainstream. I've watched his videos.
I've never bowled in a day in my life. But I enjoy the videos. It's something that I enjoy.
Yeah, totally. One question that I had for you as a strategist is around how videos get discovered. Obviously, the algorithm is the main driver for that.
And I think now so much more than maybe 10 years ago. But there's still a substantial amount of views that are generated every day just through search, right? So with your clients, how much of a role does SEO and optimization there actually play?
play and how much do you try to make videos that are so good that the algorithm pushes it? This is going to be another unpopular opinion with a lot of people. I'm going to make a lot of people mad that email my clients on a week -to -week basis telling their SEO is not good.
I do not optimize videos for search. I optimize videos for the outcome. And a lot of people say like, well, you know, I want to make videos that are like tailored to search.
I always say the same thing with how smart the algorithm is now. We don't optimize for search. We optimize for what the people want.
So if we want to make sure that we make a video that helps people, I don't know, become a pro at like AI coding, make a video about how to become a pro at AI coding. Let's be creative with the packaging, but let's not try to like cram keywords into it. It just doesn't, it's not necessary anymore.
And I have proof of this time and time again, where we have videos that do millions of views over years because we just made a video that offers a solution to a problem. And not because I thought like, okay, how many times can we put the word AI coding in the description, in the tags, in the title, maybe even in a thumbnail.
I do not look at that anymore at all. And you don't need to. If you want to have a video that's optimized for search.
optimize for a thing that people are looking to get solved. That's it. I have videos in ranking, for example, number one in search for certain topics that are not even titled exactly the way that people look it up.
Why? Because YouTube now is a lot smarter. YouTube scans your videos.
YouTube transcribes your videos. YouTube gives an actual data point to the video like, hey, this video is about X, Y, Z. So you don't, it's not 2016 anymore where we need to use tags or whatever to make YouTube understand like, what is this video about?
You just make a video that offers a solution and I guarantee that it will get search traffic. Yeah, I think that's a, that's good news for anyone who makes quality content in the end, right? You can't.
outrank anyone who makes truly great original content that solves a problem for people who are searching for something. You can't outrank that by just stuffing keywords in your tags, in your title, in your thumbnail, in your description. So I think it's great for the user experience.
People want to get served the best possible content. They don't want to get tricked into clicking on something and then be disappointed. So I think...
For a creator, it's also in a way very simple nowadays. You just make the best possible content and that has to be your main priority. Everything else is pretty much negligible.
That's it. Yeah. And, you know, again, it's a very unsatisfactory answer that I always give.
A lot of beginners are like, what? Like, is it not a way to like shortcut this? Like, no.
Like, you know, and I'm very happy there isn't anymore. Because, yeah, back in the day, there were methods that you could use to exploit, you know, and get a bunch of more views than you would in a quote unquote natural way. But again, like I have multiple, multiple dozens of viral videos that did 10 million plus views long form where I have zero tags, where the description is not optimized.
And, you know, they still did really, really well. The next time that you get an email, and believe me, my clients get these still on a week -to -week basis, and I'll not tell what type of emails they are, but when they say, we can help you improve your SEO on YouTube, what you email back is, I can help you improve, find an actual business model that still works nowadays.
Thank you very much, and do not contact me again. That is what you should be doing. It's amazing how many people do reach out to you when you have a YouTube channel, especially if you're small, actually, like this podcast right now.
Constantly people reach out to me. And the interesting thing is they never have large channels themselves. So for me, I always feel like, OK, if I wanted to sell.
youtube strategy or seo strategy in any capacity for first thing i would make sure that i actually have the credentials uh like you do with your nice youtube plaques in the background well you know like i think even these ones you can get on uh on uh like ollie express or something nowadays well and to be fair like The quality over the years hasn't gotten any better.
Like, I'll be honest, like it's not like, I don't know what the fake ones are like, but these ones. Not that great. Well, it's what they stand for, right?
Exactly, yeah. Leroy, something that I wanted to discuss with you and get your take on. On this podcast, I, of course, talk to a lot of creators.
I talk to people who are in the creator space. But what I'm particularly interested in is the intersection with business and commerce that is increasingly happening. And I think that is one of the main trends that I see on YouTube in the last couple of years, in the sense that more and more people get on the...
platform strategically to generate leads for their business through content. And some people have done that tremendously well, like Alex Hormozy, I guess, is the main prime example for someone who has built his entire second career after selling his initial business around content, right? Then you have Mr.
Beast, who has famously a lot of different branches to his business now besides the content space. How do you see... content merging with business these days?
And where do you see opportunities for people who either have a business and want to get into the creator side of things or who are currently creators and want to monetize it in a way that goes beyond ad revenue? Yeah. So I think there's two very different paths to this.
So I'm going to have to do this step by step. If you are a business owner and you sell any service or any products, not having an actual YouTube channel that is focused on organic views, again, of course, I'm biased, is absolutely stupid. There is a huge opportunity for anyone out there.
And as long as you have a solid strategy on like what kind of videos you make, you can make really, really good money on YouTube. A recent example. would be a channel that I work with is John and Bob's Smart Soil Solutions.
They are one of the most fun clients that I get to work with on a week -to -week basis. One, because John is in his early 70s. He's by far my oldest client ever.
And he's an absolute legend. He's the most sweet and kind guy to be around. And his editor and videographer, Brendan.
I started working with them a few months ago when they were at 30 ,000 subscribers and they sell... soil products so you know like all biological where you know you you spray it not spray but like you you sprinkle it in your lawn or in your um in your soil and it actually like benefit is beneficial to the health of your soil in an organic way that's their product it's like for me like the only reason why i took him on was like i know nothing absolutely nothing about landscaping i know nothing about gardening so i was like this sounds like a challenge i want to help this guy In just a few months, like they were stuck at 30 ,000 subscribers.
For years, we're now at almost at 80 ,000 subscribers. But also his website sales for the product, I think like now are like 80 % up compared to what it was before I worked with them. And there's no extra ads involved.
It's just us making videos about things that his target audience wants to see and actually seeing him as the expert. Anyone and everyone that has a product and or service should think about like, hey, is a YouTube channel something that we could fit into our marketing mix? I think everyone should have it.
Again, I'm biased, but the return on investment, if you do it well, there is no other platform that can compete and it does not even come close. It should just be a big part of your strategy. And if you can't do that, then try to find a way to outsource 60 % of it because you are literally robbing yourself of not doing so.
And then it comes down to, again, like if you're a lawyer, I can show you 10 channels that are big, big law channels that make a lot, a lot of money, where even they at some point stop really practicing law because the YouTube side of the business is way more lucrative for them. Same goes for doctors. Same goes for dentists.
Same goes for, like I said, gardeners, landscapers. The opportunity is always there if you bring something unique to the table. Now, let's say that you are an existing creator.
I think a great example of this is a creator channel or brand that I work with. I have to call it a brand because of how big they are, is Fast Good Cuisine. They're a French channel, entertainment channel.
And MrBeast actually... talks to Charles, the owner of that channel, a lot because back in the day, he came to him and be like, hey, how do you build a channel and then build a brand on the back of it and do it well? Like he has a chicken chain, like so chicken burgers in the whole of France and I think a part of Belgium now as well and does really, really well.
Well, if you are a creator, what you want to do is make sure that whatever you start. has a connection to your audience already. Now, a lot of people think that you need to be a big, big creator to start a successful brand that can, you know, do serious numbers.
You don't have to. If you are a very niche creator, let's say that you are, I don't know, what's a good example? We just talked about someone who does like, you know, a model trains, you know, someone who makes like, like videos about like, you know, trains and how to build dioramas or for like your model trains.
Start your own diorama brand. Like you are your own best. customer plus the people that watch you like you've gathered subconsciously so much data from these people in the comments and like what they like and what they don't like about the latest release of this brand and that brand you can make serious money by just figuring out like what is the intersection between what i'm making now and what my audience would love and that is the surefire way to make sure that you actually have a good shot of building a brand that at some point could kind of live on its own because it got the kickstart from your channel.
So it's a different way of working for both sides of that table. If you're an entrepreneur, you want to make the best possible videos to actually get organic interest into whatever you are selling and or, you know, like offering to them. And if you're a creator that wants to figure out how do I monetize myself?
Well, what is the most logical thing to do? Last example I'll give you of this is... I became a business partner in Golden Kobe Family over the past year, who's been a client of mine, who we grew to the fastest growing dog rescue channel on YouTube.
We are now in the works with JJ, so the owner of the channel, to start an e -com brand that is all about therapy through chewing for dogs. And it makes a lot of sense because the audience, a lot of them have dogs, a lot of them love dogs. you know, making licking mats and making like slow feeders makes a lot of sense for that audience.
And that also, again, the Mr. Beast way helps us to rescue more dogs and spend more money on the actual channels. It's a, you know, it's a machine that feeds itself.
And plus the people feel like they're doing something by instead of going to the store, buying from us because it helps us further our mission, right? So it's just think logically, like, hey, what is the, what's the audience that I have? What would they like?
What do I like? And where's that intersection? And just make the best damn possible product that you can.
Yeah, I think that makes a ton of sense. And it just goes back to how you need to choose to make content that you potentially could make forever because you genuinely care about the topic and you love the topic. Because if you then build a business around it and on top of it, you...
better like that product and that service as well. And you better have the conviction that this is something that is actually important to create. And you have the audience on your YouTube channel that supports that statement.
How do you think about conversion from content to then actually making a sale though? Is there a conflict where you see from the data that you have gathered that Making content that is designed in one shape or form to convert people to either go to a website or buy something directly.
Does that hurt the reach of the videos or is it so ideally interlocked with your audience and what they care about that it actually doesn't hurt the video itself at all when you try to convert them into customers? At scale, I haven't seen that problem. Like I've seen a problem in, you know, in short term.
windows where you might have a video that is so much geared towards selling that you see like it hurts your average view duration and therefore, you know, it's slower to pull out to a wider range of viewers. On a larger scale, so let's say we're looking at a year scale, I've never seen it really impact. I think the most important thing that entrepreneurs that have something to sell their audience need to know is that You need to give a lot before people will be willing to buy anything.
And that is because, you know, the space has become more and more saturated over the years. There's a reason why Alex Hormozian, I know Alex's team, you know, has made, has written books, you know, like you give a lot before you ask for anything. And that is here as well.
Like, you know, if you are an entrepreneur or you're an expert at something and you want to sell your services as an expert of that, give away as much as you can for free. Don't even think about selling before you've uploaded 10 videos and then start incorporating some CTA where people can work with you or people can use your services or buy your products, whatever.
You need to be strategic about it. There's no reason to try and aggressively monetize when you still have everything to prove. Although you might think I'm the best and everyone in my town thinks I'm the best.
At a grand scale of things. people don't know who you are and people don't give a shit. But you need to like start by giving a lot before you start even thinking about it.
And then you'll find a way to do it in such a way that it's not like, you know, going to hurt your long -term channel performance because people now trust you as the expert and they will watch your video. And after the video, they'll be like, okay, I'm going to click that link and go there right now. Do you have thoughts around YouTube shopping?
A lot of people here on this podcast that I talk to are working in social commerce, predominantly TikTok because they're just the dominant platform when it comes to social commerce right now. But at the same time, pretty much everyone I talk to is expecting the other major players, mainly YouTube and Meta, to join the race towards social commerce supremacy.
Do you see trends of that? And what do you think YouTube strategy will be around YouTube shopping? Is that something that you expect to be as big as TikTok shop?
Or is that something that you don't pay a lot of attention to? I think it will be bigger than TikTok shop over time. But I think that is still quite a few years away.
And the reason why is that, of course, like, you know. i work closely with some of the bigger creators on the platform so also therefore i work closely with youtube in a lot of ways so i know what they're really pushing and they they're really trying to get this feature out but i think youtube shopping is just not there yet as in it's not top of mind for the people that consume on the platform to use youtube shopping like i have quite a few creators that use it because it's there and of course you know like we get text messages from from partner managers at youtube be like hey you know like you can incorporate this now and use it and try it out and like become one of our testers and we do and we do see a rising number of people now being aware of like oh i can just click on like youtube shopping and if you know my credit card is already attached i don't even have to leave the platform blah blah great but i think it's gonna take a few more years because it's just not top of mind for the majority of
users of the platform to use youtube shopping so i think it will be bigger than tiktok simply because of the sheer size of youtube but i think it will take quite a few more years but hey if the future like i will say like if the feature is there use it you know if it you know if it's if it doesn't hurt and it doesn't work then whatever like you know why not set it up and try it out yeah i think it's super important to educate the users of each platform about the possibilities to use these features.
And I think TikTok has done a tremendous job there, establishing themselves as the place where you do discovery commerce, whereas YouTube, at least traditionally, serves different purposes, right? So I'm very curious how this will pan out over the course of the next couple of years, but it will. probably take a while until it can rival TikTok and what they're doing with TikTok shop.
Yeah, because they have to do something definitely different. Just want to add on to this because, you know, the biggest rising audience right now and that shows no signs of stopping is television users. How do you incorporate YouTube shopping in a way that it works on the TV?
You know, like how do you make it a frictionless thing? Whereas like I think TikTok shop is geared to impulse buying. It's like smaller purchases.
They're like, oh, that looks cool. Like, I need that. Click, boom, and you buy it, right?
Where I think YouTube has a few different hurdles to take compared to TikTok. But I also think TikTok might not be around in 10 years and YouTube will be around and will be bigger than ever. Yeah, that's true.
Chance is not 0 % that TikTok might go away. Absolutely not, no. Right.
Thanks so much for talking with me today. I always find it super interesting to talk with people who are just at the very forefront of whatever they're doing, really. To speak with someone like you who has really pushed the boundaries of what is possible on YouTube and with channels, both big and small, over many, many years.
It's been such a pleasure. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you so much for having me, man.
I appreciate it.
The Hook
The bait, then the rug-pull.
Moritz Schröder opens by calling out his guest for not posting on his own YouTube channel in over a year, before the two dig into why algorithm exploits, tags, and keyword-stuffed SEO have quietly stopped working, and what actually replaces them.
