The argument in one line.
Short-form virality is an engineering problem, not a creativity lottery — it follows a repeatable five-step structure (VIRAL) where the curiosity gap is the load-bearing element that either exists in the idea or doesn't.
Read if. Skip if.
READ IF YOU ARE…
- A creator posting shorts or Reels who gets inconsistent views and suspects the problem is upstream in ideation or structure, not production quality.
- An educator, coach, or agency owner trying to apply storytelling tactics from entertainment content to their niche and not knowing where to start.
- Someone who has watched Jenny Hoyos's content and wants the explicit framework behind the hooks, pacing, and payoffs rather than just consuming the output.
- A long-form creator exploring short-form and confused about what to cut, compress, or ignore.
SKIP IF…
- You are optimizing thumbnail and title strategy — this conversation is almost entirely about content structure and scripting, not discoverability mechanics.
- You are already fluent in Jenny's framework and looking for advanced monetization or platform algorithm tactics — she doesn't go there.
The full version, fast.
Jenny Hoyos's viral formula compresses to five letters: Visual shock opens, Immediate action starts without context, Rising action establishes the conflict and stakes, Anticipation withholds the answer while giving puzzle pieces, and a Lasting payoff answers the question in the final words — with any CTA delivered just before. Ideas come from two sources: outlier-mining (small channels with anomalous view spikes) and lived daily experience, filtered through a curiosity-gap test. The single biggest mistake creators make is talking about themselves rather than addressing the viewer first. High-demand, low-supply niches matter more than production quality — being a B-level creator in a C-level competitive field beats being an A-level creator competing against Mr. Beast.
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Create a free account →Who's talking.
00:00guestJenny Hoyos
00:00hostPhilipp Humm
Where the time goes.
00:00 – 00:43
01 · Cold open + guest intro
Philipp introduces Jenny and frames her as the definitive short-form storyteller. Jenny's VIRAL hook used verbatim as the cold open.
00:43 – 04:20
02 · What makes a good short-form story
Jenny argues against speed and information density; the ideal short has the minimum story beats needed to reach the ending. Introduces the full VIRAL acronym.
04:20 – 10:40
03 · V — Visual shock: analogies over abstraction
Deep dive on the V: visual shock must open every video regardless of niche. Jenny uses Gohar Khan's jar/rocks/sand/golf-ball time-management video as the gold-standard analogy example. Physical demonstrations beat verbal metaphors.
10:40 – 15:50
04 · R + A — Rising action and anticipation: making them care
Rising action = why are we watching until the end? Anticipation = withholding the answer while issuing puzzle pieces. Audience-first language (start with 'you,' not 'I'), staking the question with exaggerated consequence, and progress indicators (timers, checklists on screen) all serve R and A.
15:50 – 20:00
05 · L — Lasting payoff: the last word is the answer
The payoff rule: the final spoken word must be the answer to the opening question. Any CTA must come immediately before that word, never after. Jenny also introduces pacing as part of payoff: fast opening, medium middle, deliberate slow suspense before the reveal.
20:00 – 26:20
06 · The three biggest mistakes creators make
Selfish content (talking about yourself, not the viewer's value), no defined avatar, and wrong competitive niche. High-demand low-supply is the structural unlock — used the example of Josh Krueger niching from general entertainment into scootering content.
26:20 – 32:40
07 · Viral idea sourcing: outliers, daily life, AI
Two primary sources: outlier-mining on ViewStats (small channels, anomalous view spikes) and lived daily experience (everything is a hook — putting on your shoes, grabbing your phone). AI can generate 100 ideas but cannot identify the one with a curiosity gap — that filtering is human work.
32:40 – 36:40
08 · Challenge-based stories and short-form constraints
Challenge videos work because neither Jenny nor the viewer knows the outcome going in. But challenges for shorts must be 10 minutes max in real life, not multi-day epics. Multi-day = long-form, not a short-form series. Life coaches example: testing celebrity warm-up routines is a viable repeatable format.
36:40 – 41:20
09 · AI ideation workflow: the custom GPT system
Jenny built a custom GPT trained on a 50-page SOP covering her entire process plus a 2-page channel + avatar PDF. She always prompts with question formats ('Is it possible to...?' / 'What happens if...?') to force curiosity-gap ideas rather than flat statements.
41:20 – 44:10
10 · Long-form vs short-form storytelling
Long-form = a collection of shorts under one theme, answering one big question. The key difference: short-form hook = long-form title+thumbnail. Once someone clicks, prove the title+thumbnail and add more. B-plot is nearly essential for series-level retention.
44:10 – 46:13
11 · Delivery, filming setup, and what's next
Vocal delivery and enthusiasm are underrated — same script, different delivery, different result. Familiarity in a fixed filming location is an asset, not a limitation (Friends analogy). Niche advice: pick based on what you would do for work if not creating. Jenny's goal: $100M company built through genuine value.
Lines worth screenshotting.
- Short-form stories should start at almost the climax, not with context — skip the character motivation that movies require.
- The last word of your video must be the answer to the question you opened with; say your CTA the moment before that final word.
- A curiosity gap is binary: either the idea has one or it doesn't — no hook can rescue an idea that lacks inherent mystery.
- Start every script with 'you,' not 'I' — rearranging the same sentence from first-person to second-person doubles its hook power.
- Visual analogies beat verbal metaphors every time: a jar of rocks, sand, and golf balls teaches time management better than any explanation.
- The best short-form challenges last ten minutes maximum, not three days — more story beats than that require a long-form video, not a series.
- Pacing structure for a strong short: fast first 15 seconds, medium from 15–30 seconds, then deliberate slow suspense before the payoff.
- Showing a timer, checklist, or progress indicator on screen tells viewers how close they are to the end, which keeps them from leaving.
- High-demand, low-supply beats high-demand, high-supply every time — a B creator in a C-level niche gets more views than an A creator chasing Mr. Beast.
- Long-form is just a collection of shorts under one umbrella — each segment should be clippable as a standalone short.
- A B-plot is nearly essential for long-form retention: the A-plot is why someone clicked, the B-plot is why they finish the whole series.
- AI cannot give you the idea — it can give you a list of 100, and the real work is recognizing the one that has a curiosity gap.
- Filming in the same location every time builds audience familiarity, not boredom — Friends ran for ten years in the same coffee shop.
- Pick a niche that is your answer to 'what would you do if you weren't creating content?' — love for the subject is the only thing that survives early failure.
- Dan Martell's listicle structure — tip, how to apply it, then personal story — is the correct order: audience value first, creator context last.
The five-letter system behind short-form virality.
THE FORMULA
Virality in short-form content is not random — it follows a five-step structure where the idea either has a curiosity gap or it doesn't, and no amount of production can fix an idea that fails that test.
02What makes a good short-form story
- Good short-form stories have the minimum number of story beats to reach the ending — more events do not mean better stories.
- The VIRAL acronym (Visual, Immediate, Rising, Anticipation, Lasting payoff) covers both idea selection and scripting structure in one system.
03V — Visual shock: analogies over abstraction
- Every niche can find a visual analogy — the physical jar-rocks-sand-golf-ball demonstration teaches time management better than any verbal explanation.
- Educational creators should default to props and demonstrations over graphics and talking, even on minimal budgets.
04R + A — Rising action and anticipation: making them care
- Rising action answers 'why are we watching until the end?' — it requires a question with stakes tied to the audience's fears or ambitions, not the creator's own experience.
- Progress indicators (on-screen timers, ingredient checklists, numbered methods) reduce abandonment by showing viewers how close they are to the payoff.
- Scripting 'you' before 'I' is the single fastest rewrite available: 'I'm training for a marathon' becomes 'Here is how you should train — this is what I'm doing.'
05L — Lasting payoff: the last word is the answer
- The final word of the video must be the direct answer to the opening question — any content after the answer loses the audience.
- CTAs that come after the answer are never seen; place them in the sentence immediately before the payoff.
- Pacing structure: fast first 15 seconds, medium 15–30 seconds, deliberate slow suspense in the final third — then let the reveal breathe.
06The three biggest mistakes creators make
- Selfish content — talking about yourself rather than what the viewer gets — is the most common reason short-form videos fail to retain.
- Competing in a high-supply niche without being the best in that niche is a structural disadvantage that no algorithm can correct for.
07Viral idea sourcing: outliers, daily life, AI
- Outlier-mining: find small channels (under 1,000 subscribers) with videos that massively outperformed their average — the idea, not the creator, is responsible for those spikes.
- Lived daily experience is the most underused ideation source — every routine action is a potential hook because it happened to your viewer today too.
- AI cannot identify the curiosity gap in an idea; it can generate 100 candidates, but the human has to recognize the one that has genuine mystery.
08Challenge-based stories and short-form constraints
- Short-form challenges work because outcome uncertainty is genuine — the creator doesn't know what will happen, so neither does the viewer.
- Real-time challenge duration should be ten minutes maximum for short-form; multi-day events need to become long-form, not episodic shorts.
09AI ideation workflow: the custom GPT system
- A custom GPT trained on a detailed SOP and channel avatar document generates far better ideas than a generic ChatGPT prompt.
- Always frame the ideation prompt as a question ('Is it possible to...?') to force the model to produce hooks with inherent curiosity gaps rather than flat declarative titles.
10Long-form vs short-form storytelling
- Long-form title and thumbnail function identically to a short-form hook — both must have a curiosity gap before anyone commits to watching.
- A B-plot (a secondary emotional thread beyond the stated premise) is nearly essential for series-level retention — it is why viewers return to episode two.
11Delivery, filming setup, and what's next
- Vocal delivery — enthusiasm, suspense, deliberate pacing changes — has as much impact on retention as the script itself.
- A recurring fixed filming setup builds audience familiarity and lowers production friction; the constraint becomes an asset over time.
- Choosing a niche aligned with genuine personal interest is the only reliable predictor of persistence through the early failure period that every channel goes through.
Terms worth knowing.
- VIRAL framework
- Jenny Hoyos's five-step acronym for structuring short-form content: Visual shock, Immediate start, Rising action, Anticipation, Lasting payoff. Covers both ideation and scripting.
- Curiosity gap
- The space between what the viewer knows and what they need to know to be satisfied. Jenny treats this as the binary gate an idea must pass before any production begins.
- Outlier mining
- Finding videos from small channels (under 1,000 subscribers) that significantly outperformed the channel's average, identifying the idea as the likely cause, and recreating or remixing it.
- Story beat
- A discrete event or scene that advances the narrative. Jenny's rule: short-form videos should have as few story beats as possible — only the ones essential to reach the ending.
- A-plot / B-plot
- A-plot is the primary reason a viewer clicked (the stated premise). B-plot is a secondary emotional or narrative thread that sustains investment across a series or long-form video.
- High-demand low-supply
- A niche with strong audience appetite but few quality creators competing for it. Jenny argues this structural advantage matters more than individual creative skill.
- Visual shock
- The opening element of the VIRAL framework: a visual (not verbal) hook that grabs attention immediately. Can be a real experiment, a striking image, or a physical analogy.
- Lasting payoff
- The final step of the VIRAL framework: the answer to the opening question delivered as the very last words of the video, with any CTA placed in the sentence immediately before.
Things they pointed at.
27:20channelJosh Krueger (scootering creator)
Lines you could clip.
00:45
“A good story is one that doesn't have many story beats and has just the relevant ones to get to the end of your story.”
02:00
“The v in viral stands for visual shock. So if your video is not visual, it's not gonna go viral.”
07:00
“That curiosity gap — that is everything. If an idea doesn't have a curiosity gap, then there's no reason that the viewers are gonna watch.”
11:40
“You could say two of the same sentences, and they end up having two different meanings just because of the way that you rearranged it.”
14:00
“Making them care kinda does come back to the idea — think about what makes them scared, what is gonna excite them, what are their dreams, what are their nightmares.”
18:00
“If you're gonna ask for some sort of call to action, say it before you give the answer — because the last word you say in the video needs to be the answer.”
28:00
“Your video could suck, but if no one has made that video idea and people are trying to learn what it is that you're talking about, then you're gonna get views.”
32:00
“There's no specific tool that's gonna give you the idea, even AI. AI is not gonna give you the idea.”
42:10
“People like familiarity. Look at the best shows. Look at Friends — every single episode was them in the coffee shop, and the camera's saying it's in the same angle every time.”
Where the conversation goes.
00:00 – 04:20denseVIRAL framework introduction
04:20 – 10:40denseVisual shock — V
10:40 – 20:00denseRising action + anticipation — R + A
20:00 – 26:20denseCreator mistakes and niche selection
26:20 – 36:40denseIdea sourcing: outliers, life, AI
36:40 – 41:20steadyLong-form vs short-form
41:20 – 46:13steadyDelivery and filming setup
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analogystory
00:00The v in viral stands for visual shock. So if your video is not visual,
00:07it's not gonna go viral. Today, I'm talking to Jenny Hoyos, the number one storyteller on social media. She has built a YouTube empire with over 7,000,000 subscribers and has billions of views across all her channels.
00:20There is no one that has mastered short form storytelling like she has. That curiosity gap, that is everything. If an idea doesn't have a curiosity gap, then there's no reason that the viewers are gonna watch.
00:31In this video, we break down her formula to make any idea go viral, the storytelling structure behind most of her unforgettable videos, and her number one tip to become a magnetic storyteller. Whether you're a creator, entrepreneur, or speaker, this one will change how you tell stories forever.
00:48So I remember in one of the videos you said that you could make any video or any idea go viral. What makes a good story for you?
00:58A good story for short form content is not one that is fast, because I find a lot of people start trying to stuff in a bunch of information and just talk really fast.
01:11Rather, a good story is one that doesn't have many story beats and has just the relevant ones to get to the end of your story. Usually, you have a goal, and you set out for a goal in the beginning. You have a problem that needs to get resolved, and you only include the very few story beats that are relevant to answer that question.
01:30And what entails a story beat? Is that, like, a challenge and a resolution, or what does that entail?
01:37Yeah. The the way I think about it, actually so I actually have a framework. So it'd be much easier if I just, uh, say what those what those are.
01:44So, uh, it's a new one. I came up with, like, uh, two months ago, and it has been working in every video. So super easy to remember.
01:53It's the acronym viral. The v in viral stands for visual shock. So if your video is not visual, it's not gonna go viral.
02:04It needs to be visual, and it doesn't matter what niche you're in. If you're in in an entertainment niche, then I'm hoping it's you're doing some sort of visual challenge or some sort of, uh, visual story. And if you're in an educational niche, try to find a visual analogy, whether that's, like, with marbles or if you're using, like, for example, the Blue Ocean strategy.
02:23It's a marketing strategy. And it's very visual because you think about a fisherman, and there's fish, and there's a blue and red ocean. Like, it it visualizes it.
02:30So number one, there it needs to be visually engaging, but it needs to start with a visual shock element.
02:38Um, and then after that, immediately start the video.
02:43You wanna start these short form videos, unlike movies where they have to give us context and the why and the motivation of the character, with short form content, you have to get right into the juice, the peak action, like, at the we're almost at the climax already.
02:59That's where the video should start. So immediately and immediately start the video, so not giving context. And then the r is rising action.
03:08We need tension. So what's the question? What's the problem?
03:11Tell us it. The a is anticipation. You don't wanna give the answer immediately.
03:16You wanna give us little hints and clues and puzzle pieces. And the l, a lasting payoff. You wanna make a concise ending that concisely answers the question, and the ants or if you're asking a question in the beginning of the video, like, what's two plus two?
03:30The last word you say in the video needs to be four. If you say four and make sure to people are gonna leave because they they heard four and then they're gonna leave. So if you're gonna ask for some sort of call to action, part of that lasting payoff is to say it before you give the answer.
03:46That's fascinating. And so easy to remember with viral.
03:51Can we go a to remember. Yeah. So easy.
03:53Can we go a little bit deeper into some of those components and you give our listeners some some of the tips on how to master each one of the steps? So if we start off with, for example, the first one, visual. Yes.
04:06And if we think of let's say someone typical in the educational space.
04:11Let's say I'm a I'm a life coach, and I somehow wanna make some videos about that. How could I start, for example, with an enticing visual at the start?
04:21Yeah. So there's either two ways of doing it, which is, like, using an actual study of something.
04:27So if it's, a a research study and showing, like, um, like, the the results or a bar graph, or if it's not, then giving some sort of analogy of what it looks like. So for example, I've seen, I I there's so many different life coaches that have done this type of or psychologists that have done these videos.
04:46And I can't I I wish I could find it to show it, but, usually, they'll start with, like, a bowl of of, uh, a specific color. So let's say it's, like, blue, and then they'll have a glass that has, like, uh, red water.
04:59So there's blue water and red water. And they'll usually say, okay. This blue water is is you, and this red water is someone giving you, um, telling you something bad.
05:09Now even if they just say something small, your water is still blue, but it's it's going to, um, it's gonna be turning a different color. And no matter if you add more blue water to it, it's gonna take a lot more blue water to turn it from purple back to its original blue.
05:24So, like, that's just like a Mhmm. An example. I've seen another great example of a this is one of the best videos I've ever seen.
05:31This one I I definitely know the the channel, so you could use this as an example. Gohar Khan is the name of the channel. He has a video where he has a jar, and he says, um, so if we were to pour sand, rocks, and golf balls into this jar, in what order should we pour it in so we can fill it completely up?
05:52And then the video is him saying, well, let's start with the sand and putting the rocks. Oh, wait. There's no space for the golf balls.
05:59Okay. Let's do the rocks, then the sand, then the golf ball. There's still no space.
06:03But if you put the golf balls first, then the rocks, then the sand, then there is space. And that's because the way you should be allocating your time is by doing the bigger tasks because that's how you should start your day. You should start it with that foundation, and then the little tasks will have space to be filled up at the end.
06:20That was such a great video, um, analogy. So just try to always think of visual analogies.
06:27Got it. This is fascinating. Yeah.
06:29Instead of just using the analogy word for word, you really you paint the scene by playing it out real life. Yes.
06:37And so the second one was immediate action. I think that's clear. Just boom.
06:41You start with momentum. Can you share a little bit more about the third one of how can you get that was rising. Um, what was the third one?
06:49Yeah. Like, rising action. We need Rising action.
06:51We need to know
06:53we need to know what we're watching for. So I think this one is, um, this one, well, they're actually all just important.
07:03But I think people struggle with r and a, which is like, what is this conflict?
07:10What is what is this, um, anticipation as well? So I think we can combine those.
07:15The way I think about it is we're immediate so we have that visual analogy. We're immediately starting, but why are we watching until the end?
07:23That's why I think about rising action. Like, what why are we okay. Not only is what are we watching till the end for, but why should we care?
07:31Because the question you you you, in theory, could do something like, how do I make my coffee? Okay. But there's no there's nothing, like, making me intrigued about that.
07:41Yeah. That's a question that, um, that you're gonna give me the answer to. But but make us make us care.
07:47So is it because, um, this is how I make the coffee that keeps me awake for more than twenty four hours?
07:55What? That's insane. Okay.
07:56I need to know how you make that coffee. Mhmm.
08:01So you increase the stakes. What are your other preferred ways of how do you make your audience care? That's I guess, one thing is time pressure.
08:10What are some other ways where you feel like this really goes well with any audience?
08:17Definitely, I would say speaking to them something I didn't mention on in this whole framework because it all comes you know, the first comes the idea before we we even get to this framework, of course.
08:30Um, but making them care kinda does come back to the idea and making sure that it revolves around them. So whatever like, if you're doing something in a video, are you do you're doing that to test it for the audience.
08:43Um, or at the end of it, they're gonna get some sort of value. So you'll make them care by tapping into what they care about. Think about what makes them scared, what is gonna excite them, what are their dreams, what are their, um, nightmares.
08:59Got it. Yeah. So the video should address something specifically that they think, I need to have this solved, or this is what I'm always fear feared about.
09:09A 100%. And something I wanna add to that is
09:12is the the wording. Like, the certain way you word things or the order of the way you say things makes a huge difference. Because you could say two of the same sentences, and they end up having two different meetings just because of the way that you rearranged it.
09:29Uh, for that reason, that's why you always wanna start your video by starting with you and then going to me. So, like, if, uh, recently, I saw a video where someone said that they were training, um, to run, a marathon. Right?
09:45Instead of starting the video by saying, I'm training to run a marathon, you wanna start by saying, here's how you you should train for your next marathon because this is what I'm doing. Like, just by, like, rearranging the the way you said it.
09:57And and saying it exactly like that isn't the most optimized way, but the point is we always start with them and then talk about you. That
10:06is so fascinating because a lot of creators out there, they just talk from their own experience without including their audience necessarily.
10:14Oh, no. The best creators always talk about their first. Even someone like Dan Martell has such a great formula and all, even in his long form videos where, for example, if he has a listicle videos of, like, five tips, he always says the tip first and tells them how to apply it.
10:28So it's usually, like, a three step thing where he's like, um, the tip, how you apply it, and then his background and his story, um, with that specific experience. So he's starting with them. Mhmm.
10:41Got it. Okay. Fascinating.
10:45And so raising anticipation is making them care.
10:51Anything else that you feel this is what someone definitely has to have in their story in order for the story to land really well?
11:00Yeah. Uh, another thing that is very difficult to do, which will I I say is, like, part of the anticipation stage, is making sure the viewer is understanding how close like, where we are in the story, how close we are to finishing.
11:14Because if they feel like there's no end in sight, then they're just gonna leave. Because they're just gonna get bored. So we want it we want it to feel like we are constantly progressing.
11:23Progression is super important. So making sure that you are using language that makes it feel like we're progressing, like, second, or, um, or even including mechanisms.
11:35Like, what I like to do is, um, I like to include like, if if the video is is me doing something in a certain amount of time, I'll have the timer on screen. If I'm doing this, uh, a recipe, for example, I'll have the ingredients on the top of the screen, and then I'll check mark as I'm going through the ingredients so they understand how close we are to the video being completed.
11:56Got it. That's a good trick one. I'll try this one.
12:01If you think you've by now probably analyzed millions of videos. If you think is are there maybe, like, three mistakes that you see are the most common one that is stopping people from going viral? We feel like if they just fix this one thing, then it would make such a big difference.
12:22I I definitely think it's it's selfish content, and it's that people talk about them and not about the value that the person's gonna get.
12:34But I think that all stems from not understanding their avatar or sometimes not even having an avatar.
12:41So I think it is really important to know who you are creating content for and ensuring that it is a market that has high demand and low supply.
12:53Because you can be in a market that has high demand, um, but there's a high supply of content creators creating that content. So you now can't be, like, a b, like, level creator.
13:03You need to be a plus plus the best at that niche versus if you're in a niche where, uh, the competitors are, like, creating content at a c level.
13:13You being at a b means you're already the best at than everyone there. So, um, I would say knowing your avatar, but also ensuring that you pick an avatar or a niche or, you know, those those things are are similar.
13:29If you pick an avatar, then it it typically falls under a niche. Um, I think it's super important. I think that's I think that's that's I've seen creators who would try to I I've seen, uh, creators who've tried to be entertainment creators, and they wouldn't get views because they're competing against mister beast.
13:45And then they niche down. Actually, I literally have a a friend that I I've helped. His name is Josh Krueger.
13:52He was he was doing, like, okay, like, in this, uh, in the entertainment niche, basically competing against, like, Air Rack, Ryan Trahan, mister Beast. But then he niched down into scootering content, and now he is the best scootering content creator.
14:07Like, it's it's crazy how just switching niches can make someone instantly go viral.
14:12That is fascinating. Yeah.
14:14That's so good to know. Because, yeah, if we keep in mind, oftentimes, especially when it comes to educational content or also business content, right, there, the bar is relatively low.
14:25But if we take the entertainment space, it's pretty high. So if you apply some more of balmies wow.
14:31Fascinating.
14:35You talked about idea before. How can I come up with those viral ideas?
14:43Yeah. There's different ways to do it, and I guess it all comes down to, like, what your niche is.
14:50And, you know, based on that, you'll know which is the best option. Like, for example, for entertainment content creators, I would say that looking for outliers is the best thing.
15:00So, essentially, going on YouTube or platforms like ViewStats and seeing videos that are performing higher than average on the person's channel. So I used to do this all the time where you would go and look for small content creators, like less than a thousand subscribers, and have gotten over a 100,000 views on a video.
15:18Mhmm. That means their idea, whatever they did was good, and you should recreate that. So that's that's one way, and I think that primarily works for entertainment content creators.
15:27But as far as other creators, I guess it also works for for niches in a way. But then even so, the issue with that is, uh, if the video has just come out and you create your own version, how are you gonna how are you gonna do better than them?
15:43Or I guess you'd have to, like, find like, with entertainment content, you can find a twist. But if it's, like, educational, like, what twist are you do? I guess you could try to make the video better.
15:54But, anyway, because of that, it's also good to have your own unique ideas. And Mhmm.
15:59My favorite way is actually just through my own experiences, um, or, like, through content that I am consuming in other formats, like, uh, books or TV.
16:13Um, but I really like trying to acknowledge, like, everything that happens in your real life because everything is an idea. Um, like, literally, like, it's actually insane how how, um, everything is an idea.
16:26For example, you know how you you let's say, waking up in the morning. The first thing you do is grab your phone.
16:33That's a hook. Or do you is the first thing you do in the morning, do you grab your phone or do you grab your phone first thing in the morning? Boom.
16:40That's that's a hook. Every everything's a hook. Even putting on your shoes.
16:44I saw a relatable video on how, like, um, instead of untying your shoes, does anyone else just, like, slip them on and, like, actually spend longer trying to put them on with the laces tied than just untying them and tying them back on? Like, that's that's viral. Mhmm.
17:00I think, uh, trying to acknowledge, like, things that happen in your day to day is really good because it happens to other people too, and it probably hasn't been created yet.
17:10Mhmm. When people think of storytelling, they often think that it has to have this challenge that you or this mission that you stayed up front. We're like, hey.
17:20Over the next three days, I'm gonna cut out all all the carbs in my life, or I'm gonna not gonna look at my phone. People think that this is the way how they create stories.
17:29Would you say that this is how you usually look for ideas? It's usually those challenges type of videos, or is there a better way?
17:37Those are my favorite stories for sure. Because the reason why I like those, like, for for me personally, is because when I'm going into it, I don't know what's gonna happen either. So if I don't know what's gonna happen, then the viewers definitely don't know what's gonna happen.
17:50But you can definitely incorporate storytelling tactics in videos that don't have those traditional challenge based stories. It's just a bit trickier, and you have to be more specific in the way that you are writing it, I would say.
18:06If we take those challenge type of stories, one thing that I struggle with myself is that oftentimes I wanna do a challenge, but it seems like, hey. How do I compress that then into a sixty second video?
18:19Right? Let's say I go through this three day challenge where I'm, let's say, I'm trying to speak more articulate, and I'm documenting this.
18:27But then if it's like, hey. How can I put this then in a sixty second video?
18:31Yeah. That for that reason, actually, the first thing I'll say is I find that the best short form challenges last ten minutes, not even maybe an hour max because we don't wanna have a lot of story beats.
18:47And if you were to break it up into three days, unfortunately, we'd be break we would, like, we would we because we don't want that many story beats, we would probably just say on day one, I felt three sentences.
19:00Day two, I felt three sentences. Day three, I felt three sentences. But you can't just break up an entire day into three sentences, um, especially if it's a challenge.
19:10Like, for example, if the challenge is, like, eating a healthy diet, imagine breaking up on day one. I ate this for breakfast with this, this, this, and that. At lunch, this is like, it's a lot.
19:20Mhmm. So for that reason, I would actually encourage a a long form video.
19:26I wouldn't even say a short form series. I know people do short form series. Um, those work on Instagram, maybe TikTok.
19:34But for YouTube or just short form content in general, I wouldn't do a series. In that case, I would just make a long form. Mhmm.
19:41Got it. But, yeah, the best challenges think of challenges that, like, last, uh, like, for short form, they really do need to be short stories.
19:50You need to tell stories that are really, like, actually just don't have much going on. Okay.
19:55It's good to know. And so if we take, for example, some educational creators out there, let's say we have this agency owner or, again, we have this life coach. What could be, like, a ten minute challenge that they could record or document?
20:11I guess it depends. Like, uh, I've seen videos where people make a short where they try and close a client on a cold call.
20:17Like, that's that's a a challenge they could do. Or, um, could you give me, like, a specific niche that I could think about?
20:26Yeah. Let's see. Let's let's stick with life coaches then for a second.
20:32And so, hey. You're in the niche, let's say, of helping helping man with confidence. Okay.
20:39Very relatable.
20:40Yeah. Yeah. No.
20:42I I love that. I am, uh, almost wondering if there is some sort of exercise that you can do for self confidence or maybe if there are certain I guess, like, a actually, it reminds me of a video I just I just saw of someone, like, talking about, like, how you before you do anything that is is gonna be publicly or you need to be confident, like, just to, like, shake and and and Mhmm.
21:13Be crazy. Have you heard about that tip?
21:16Yeah. How, like, you just wanna, like, shake everything off, like, get all the answers? All the time.
21:20Every single time before podcast, before I go on stage, I shake out my body and do warm routine.
21:25Okay. There we go. That that's that's like a a video or, uh, testing out it could be even actually because it's not as an episodic series, it could be a nonepisodic series where you're testing out different warm up routines.
21:42So, yeah, the the video could start like that, trying and then blank celebrities, uh, warm up routine before, um, speaking and then giving it a rating And then doing different videos where you give it different ratings.
21:56And you don't have to say that they're they're linked, but that's a format. That's a great format. Um, and it's visual because you're you're you're shaking it all off.
22:07But, yeah, I would say challenges don't always need to be, like, what is, like, typically seen on YouTube where it's like, how long can I hold my breath or something like that?
22:22It doesn't need to always be like that. Mhmm. A challenge is ultimately a problem that you want to resolve.
22:30Mhmm. Mhmm.
22:33And it can be the smallest problem possible as long as it as it has a visual hook at the start and some progression throughout and a lot of twists in there. And so That they care about.
22:44Yeah. That that they care about. And so what I hear from you is don't try to find the super unique one big challenge because oftentimes this might be a little bit too much for those shorts, but rather more those short relatable things that people ask themselves.
22:56Ah, I was actually curious about that.
22:59Yeah. Yeah. I mean, shorts are are meant to be short.
23:05It's like I feel like a good example is, um, I I saw a long form video where someone it was, like, an hour long where someone, like, went through the different fruits and the nutrition value that you get from them and which and then ranking. Like, basically, they did a tier list of fruits, and then they, like, explained in thorough each fruit for an hour.
23:25A short would be literally just doing each individual fruit.
23:32Um, like, the video would be showing a tier list with with one fruit of or one fruit of each kind on s through f and then saying so they already see which fruits are there.
23:44What tier would we put an app oh my goodness. This is a viral video. Okay.
23:47What and then showing the the tier list and hooking with what tier would an apple go on? Well, it has a lot of fiber, but it also has a lot of sugar. And then when you look at the amount of fat in relative to this and that, blah blah blah, and then you build it up.
24:01So so, basically, you wanna tell the story where it's like, it has this, but it's that. It has this, but it has that. And, ultimately, for that reason, I give Apple a tier, and that's the end the video.
24:13So that's that's also, like, a a question. I mean, yeah, it's a is kinda like a it's a challenge. It's like a game.
24:20Mhmm. It's fun. That that's oh my goodness.
24:21I hope someone does that. I hope someone does that. That's so good.
24:25That'd be so fun. Uh, someone after watching this video is gonna do that. Yeah.
24:29No. That that's good. That's so cool.
24:35Are there any other ways how I can come up with those viral video ideas?
24:44Honestly, I primarily focus on natural experiences and outliers, and I just try to get as many as I as I can through that.
24:57Just writing down everything, to be honest. I mean, of course, the obvious the obvious thing I haven't mentioned yet is is AI. But I think the way that I think about ideation is there's no specific tool that's gonna give you the idea, even AI.
25:11AI is not gonna give you the idea. There's a bunch of these different things I can give you of tons of ideas. So you could, um, you can share with AI, have it brainstorm a whole list.
25:21But what I what I recommend is just gathering at least a 100 ideas and picking out one of those 100. Mhmm.
25:27The one idea that people actually care about that will be able to follow that framework.
25:34Jenny, can you walk us through your process of using AI for ideation?
25:40Yeah. So for one, I use a custom GPT that I created by essentially, uh, putting in, like, a 50 page SOP, which is a a standard operating procedure, which, in other words, uh, for those for those watching, um, or listening.
25:56So whenever I hire someone, uh, onto the team, I give them a 50 page PDF. It it sounds very long, actually, for them, where they read through my entire process.
26:08I basically just, like, in detail wrote down everything I do from ideation, scripting, um, filming, editing.
26:16Literally, no matter what you're doing, you could be an editor, and you're gonna learn about my ideation process because you're also gonna be in the story, and you're gonna wanna know you're gonna wanna know the context and even the ideator. I'm I hope they understand what the editors are going going through so that they know that we don't wanna be producing some sort of crazy thing.
26:33We we don't wanna do it in post. We don't have to do it when filming. Anyway, so I have a 50 page thing that explains everything I do and also more about my avatar, my mission, vision, uh, my goal.
26:47And so that's in my my custom GPT.
26:51So, um, my students have the have that have access to that as well, which is pretty cool. But from there oh, because the GPT doesn't actually have my mission vision, um, because I use the same one that, uh, all my students use.
27:07So I have the SOP. I have the custom GPT, then I give it my avatar, my mission. I have a I upload two PDFs.
27:14So I have another PDF, two pages, actually very short, just explaining my channel and different and similar channels. Um, and then from there, I just ask it to give me viral ideas.
27:26Um, and it'll give me viral ideas, but, ideally, you're giving it some sort of, like, topic or some sort of format to start with. So, for example, I like to say, give me ideas, um, that start with the hook.
27:39Is it possible to blank? Or what happens if blank? Because those are the type of videos that I I like to do.
27:46What
27:47happens if is it possible if to Yeah. Always questions. I always give it, like, those questions so it knows to give me an idea that isn't a statement.
27:56Because sometimes AI will just tell you, like, picking an apple out of a tree. And it's like, okay. What what does that have to do?
28:04Versus it's like, is it possible to grow an apple tree without a seed? Like, oh, wait.
28:11What? Now now it's, like, interesting.
28:14Okay. So it has to has the this surprise component in there.
28:19Yeah. That curiosity gap. That is everything.
28:22If an idea doesn't have a curiosity gap, then there's no reason that the viewers are gonna watch. There's there's no reason to watch.
28:29Mhmm. If you had to give your viewers, your listeners one or two tips to become a much more captivating storyteller, what would it be?
28:46On on on specifically video content Mhmm. Yeah.
28:50The way you speak is everything. I've seen people like, you can take the same script and someone's if someone says it without any enthusiasm or suspense, then the viewer isn't gonna be engaged.
29:05Don't sound robotic. I think that is, like, the biggest thing.
29:09The the way you say something really makes a difference. You could be saying not you could be saying nothing. But if you're talking like something's about to happen, people are instantly gonna be hooked.
29:20Uh-huh. So so I would say that's that's a huge tip that is underlooked.
29:28Um, but another thing I would say is also similar to that is not having the same pacing throughout.
29:37So, typically, for my videos, I always have, like the first fifteen seconds is, like, lots of things are happening. Things are moving quickly.
29:46And then things kinda slow down to a medium pace from that fifteen to thirty second range. Then from thirty seconds forward, everything is, like, super, like, slow, but not, like, slow in a way where it's, like, we're not progressing.
30:01So, like, wait something like, the suspense is about to happen. So the way I think about it is, like, um, actually, I have this video where I tested if you can break an unbreakable glass. And, like, the beginning of the video was, like, method one, method two, method three, method four, and then, um, method five, and then it slows down.
30:19It's like, okay. I'm kinda nervous. I think this is gonna work, guys.
30:23And then and then I I throw it off a building, and then we let that play out, actually, in slow motion. It's falling off the building in slow motion. And then before it falls, we cut back to me.
30:34Okay. I'm gonna go check out the cup to see it right now. And then we reveal like, because that's when people are most engaged.
30:41People are invested because of the suspense.
30:45That is so powerful. Yeah.
30:48Slowing down before the big reveal. So boom, boom, boom, boom, and then
30:54Yeah. Beautiful. Exactly.
30:55I love this.
30:58That is that is so cool. I love this. Now I've seen that you've been also fairly active when it comes to long form storytelling, but I think you stopped posting there.
31:09Right? Temporarily. I mean, I'm working on a couple of them.
31:11Take care. So what would you say is the biggest difference, long form storytelling versus short form storytelling?
31:19Oh, for sure. It's definitely that they're just bigger stories that have more story beats. Um, and that is usually because there is more days or there are more elements to it.
31:32So, um, going back to, like, the fruit example, it's like one fruit versus all the fruits.
31:39That's how I think about long form. I think about long form in the way that if you were to clip out a bunch of sections, it can work as a short.
31:47I mean, look at, like, mister even, like and it's not even just the way I execute it. Mister Beast does this himself. One of his most popular formats is, um, $1 versus $1,000,000 vacation or $1 versus $1,000,000 date, $1 versus $1,000,000 drop.
32:02He has, like, a bunch of formats where he does that. Uh, hotel, planes, etcetera. That is a long form where he's testing out all those different things.
32:10He could easily make a short, and he has where he just reviews a $1 hotel, a $10 hotel. And that in itself is an entire short.
32:18So I think about a long form. And especially if you're a short form creator moving into long form, think about long form as a bunch of sorts shorts back to back that fall under the same theme. Even if you look at, like I love Dan Martell's videos.
32:30His are usually, like, 10 tips of something. If you were to clip them out, they're all shorts. Think of a bunch of shorts ideas that fall under one umbrella, one theme, and then make that into a long form.
32:41I love this. And it, like, answers one big story.
32:46Uh-huh. Yeah. And so almost every minute should be a standalone video by itself that it has its own viral characters as well.
32:55Exactly. Yep. Got it.
32:57Okay. This is so cool.
33:01Do you see any other big differences long form versus short form, or do you feel that those are the things that you change the most in order to be successful on long form?
33:13I would say that is the main thing. However, of course, long form has, uh, a title and thumbnail versus short form.
33:23Well, they do, but they don't. So on long form, someone needs to click on your video to watch it. On short form, someone has already ran into your video, and you just have to keep them hooked.
33:35So the way that you hook on long form versus short form is very different. So the way I think about a short form hook is the way you should think about a long form title and thumbnail.
33:44So when I think about hooking with the tie, uh, with hooking in long form so if if the title and thumbnail is a hook, then what is the actual hook? So, basically, the title and thumbnail should be very similar to a short where it's it's visual.
33:57There's a curiosity app. There's a reason to care. You have the reason to care within there.
34:03Um, so when someone clicks on it, you want to now prove the title and thumbnail. That's that's the difference.
34:10You don't want to restate what you just said. Rather, you want to prove that in this video, we're going to be doing what we just talked about and then also give more.
34:21So not only did they click, but now they're getting more on top of it. So the way I think about it is, typically, there should be, like, a multiple reasons to care in your video.
34:31Even with shorts, but mainly in long form, they shouldn't only just be watching for that a plot. The a plot being what they what they clicked on.
34:39They should also be watching for that that b reason. I think Ryan Tran's one of the best creators at this.
34:46Right now, he's doing his 50 states in fifty day series. Mhmm. The a plot is he's visiting 50 Airbnbs in fifty days, but the b plot is he's doing it to raise money for charity.
34:58And that's why people are gonna keep tuning tuning in. Yeah.
35:02It's cool. I wanna see this really cool Airbnb in this random state. That's why I'm in.
35:07But now I'm invested in him this entire series because I wanna see if he's able to raise a million dollars.
35:14Mhmm. So it's the question below the main quest. Yeah.
35:19Okay. Fascinating. It gets really complex because, um, in short form, there the best short form videos have a b plot, but it is very hard to incorporate a b plot or to incorporate a complex b plot.
35:34So when I do it, it's usually very simplistic. But with long form, I would say a b plot is is a is is pretty essential if you're gonna keep people invested for a long time.
35:45Mhmm.
35:48I remember the thing that held me back the most in going into long form storytelling was that the whole filming process just seems so so so much work, like, to have constant camera from every single angle on you.
36:01Yeah. What would be be your tip to get a little bit over this overwhelm where it just feels like it's so much work?
36:09Like, how do you do with that?
36:12Uh, a 100%. It it is a lot of work, and something I I always tell people is to have that that one place where you always film and have the things set up there.
36:22And it's like, you know exactly how it is. It's the first time, it's gonna be difficult, but it's gonna be familiar each time, and I think that makes it very easy. Um, so I film a lot of videos in my kitchen, and now it's like muscle memory where where the tripod goes, where the light goes, and and how everything is.
36:38And it's like setting it up is is quick and easy. And something I wanna say because I already know what people are thinking, um, or some people because I've told this to people, and I usually like, the number one piece of feedback I get whenever I say that is, oh, but people are gonna be bored of seeing this the same thing.
36:57Like, don't they wanna see different places? Like, my train has gone to 50 different Airbnb's. Mhmm.
37:02Um, and the answer I tell them is no. People like familiarity.
37:08Look at the best shows. Look at friends. Every single episode was them in the coffee shop, and the camera's saying it's in the same angle every time.
37:15Not even just them. You look at every single TV show or any, like, family show. The the camera is through the everything is in the same place every single time.
37:23Do you notice that as well? And it's it's familiarity.
37:27Mhmm. Mhmm. That is so relieving to everyone, right, that needs things fancy gear.
37:33I need to go outside. I need to do this. Just, yes, stay in the same setup once you have found the setup that you like.
37:39Yeah.
37:40Okay. That's why a lot of people have studios, and I think or a lot of creators as they get bigger, they end up getting studios because it's very convenient. Like, for me, I can't leave a tripod in the kitchen.
37:50But once you get a studio, um, because I've seen creators, like, have a studio with the kitchen, and you can just leave everything there. And all you have to do is turn it on. Mhmm.
37:58Yeah. Yeah. That seems to be making things much easier.
38:02Jenny, if you were to give a tip to someone that is just starting out right now, short form storytelling, and he's like, I wanna be like Jenny. What would be the tip that you would give to that person?
38:15The number one tip to go viral on shorts, I guess? Mhmm.
38:24The number one tip because I feel like I've mentioned all of them. I wanna go back to the the high demand, low supply because that that is everything.
38:38Your video could suck, but if no one has made that video idea and people are trying to to learn what it is that you're you're talking about, then you're gonna get views. And it's very hard to find that, but once you do, you're gonna get a bunch of viewers on that video, and you just wanna create similar videos for that audience.
38:58And um, over time, you build a baseline level of viewership.
39:04I love this. This reminds me a little bit of business. In business, oftentimes, people go through an entire industry and look for what are the companies out there and where is maybe a niche that is not being served too well.
39:16And the same analytical mindset, you can apply them to YouTube. And you just analyze niche by niche and think, hey. What is the competition out there?
39:24How much views are coming in? And what could be the unique edge there? Yep.
39:28Exactly.
39:30Um, so think about something that you love or a tip that I've heard creators say. This is how I I figured out my niche when I first started was, um, because I when I was first getting started, I heard that this was, like, a good idea.
39:43And I heard creators I heard one creator ask their I heard a creator ask their friend, like, don't know what niche you like, what should I do? And I heard the creator tell the other one.
39:52They said, well, if you weren't creating content, what would you do? Like, what what would you wanna do for work?
39:58Like, what would you want your your job to be? Or, like, dream job that is, not like what are you currently doing.
40:05Um, and then you wanna create a content around that that niche.
40:10I mean, like, Michael Reeves is a great channel. He does, like, engine engineering content creation, or he does, like he engineers, like, these really cool things.
40:20He doesn't even have, like, a engineering degree or, like, comp learn computer like, he learned computer science completely by by himself, but the things he's building aren't insane. Um, and that's why when I started my channel, I actually started with finance because I, of course, wanted to do content creation.
40:35But, um, if it didn't work, I was always just gonna be, like, an investment banker. That's what I was gonna get into. So it's like, oh, naturally, you might as well just make content around around that then.
40:47Um, but even so, like, recently, I do a lot of cooking content because now, like, I think to myself, like, if because the answer is different now.
40:56Now if if I was in a creator, what would I wanna do? Like, I would wanna have my own restaurant. Like, that would be fun to be cooking.
41:02And it's like, oh, just create content around that because that's what you have the most fun with. And the reason why I say that is to find a niche and something that you love is because when you love something, you're gonna keep doing it even if it's not working.
41:16Mhmm. If you love something so much, you're gonna keep doing it even sorry. If you love something so much, then you're gonna keep doing it no matter what even if it's not working is what I'm trying to say.
41:29Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's why I tried so many side hustles, um, back then when I wanted to, like I wanted I wanted to be this entrepreneur and start a bunch of businesses.
41:38Um, and I would always do all these different things. I would try drop shipping. I tried, like, uh, coding.
41:44I tried creating websites. I tried doing all these different things, but none of it worked because I would always quit one to two weeks in.
41:52But YouTube worked because I did it for over a year without it even working.
41:59Well, yeah, that's persistence. How do you feel about not being an investment banker?
42:05Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad. I don't even know why I studied like, well, I guess finance is a good, uh, thing to study, but it's funny because I'm not even passionate about it anymore.
42:15Now it's like, I just love content creation.
42:18Yeah. Yeah. That would be so funny to imagine you right now in some office.
42:25Yeah. But I guess it I guess it worked out, though, because it's it's very important with this this type of career to know how to manage your money and, uh, be responsible with your investments.
42:37True. And last question. What's next for you?
42:41What let's say, where do you wanna what what is your big goal in the future?
42:48I have a lot of goals. Mhmm. So I wanna have my company be worth a $100,000,000.
42:58But I also wanna do that in a way that I am enjoying and enjoying the process, having fun, and I'm also happy with the way I did it.
43:11Because I can easily sell out and do a bunch of sponsorships that I don't wanna do. Like, I mean, I could do, uh, uh, you know those gambling websites? Like, oh, those people get paid so much whenever they promote that.
43:21I I could do that if I wanted to. I'm not gonna do that. So I I wanna get my company worth, um, a $100,000,000, and I wanna do it through a way where I am actually helping people.
43:32Because at the end of the day, you get paid, like, any person. The reason that every single person gets paid is because they are providing some sort of value. If you're not providing value, then you are not gonna make money unless you're just robbing.
43:44Like Mhmm. You like, it doesn't matter who you are. You get paid because you're providing some sort of value or service.
43:51So, um, yeah. And the biggest thing that I'm genuinely passionate about and I'm trying to work into my content is just healthier living in every facet.
44:01So healthier, like, eating healthier or getting active is directly, but also healthier living in the sense of being nice to your community, spending time with your friends and family, uh, being conscious about your money and and making sure that you are saving it and not wasting it.
44:19So that is something I wanna I wanna do. I wanna encourage kids to have a a good, healthy lifestyle.
44:27Mhmm. Beautiful. Jenny, just one follow-up question.
44:30This why a 100,000,000?
44:34Yeah. Um, that's a good question. I guess it's not because I need a $100,000,000.
44:40Um, I don't even, like I don't even buy anything. Like, I don't even have the desire to have anything like that.
44:47I just want to know that, like, I can do it. Like, it's it's a it's a huge accomplishment.
44:56But I know money isn't isn't isn't everything. I just wanna know that I'm able to, like my business skills are able to do Mhmm. Something, uh, able to get there.
45:06Mhmm. Beautiful. Jenny, thank you so much.
45:09It has been absolute privilege having you here. And, yeah, super excited to see the progress over the next few month, years. And anyone who hasn't checked out Jenny's content yet, it's absolutely crazy.
45:22She's really the master when it comes to storytelling. Um, Jenny, is there anything else that you would like to share that how people can find you, what they should check out?
45:32Yeah. So if you wanna check out my content, I'm on YouTube, Jenny Hoyos. And if you have any questions or wanna work together, just email team@JennyHoyos.com.
45:42I'll be responding directly. Typically, what I encourage people is to let me know about where you're currently at in your journey and where you're trying to get because I offer a bunch of different services. Or sometimes if you just have a small question, I'll just go ahead and answer it.
45:56Um, let me know, like, what you what you guys need or are struggling with, and I'm happy to help. Wonderful.
46:04Thank you so much.
46:05Yeah. Thank you for having me.
The Hook
The bait, then the rug-pull.
The v in viral stands for visual shock — that is the first line of this interview, and it is also its thesis. Jenny Hoyos, who has built more than 7 million subscribers and billions of views across her channels, has reduced viral short-form content to a five-letter engineering checklist. This conversation with Philipp Humm is the closest thing to a public documentation of that system.
How they asked for the click.
MENTIONED ON CAMERA
FROM THE DESCRIPTION
PRIMARY CTAWhere the creator wants you to go next.
OTHER LINKSAlso linked in the description.
