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The Anatomy of a Dream · YouTube

Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells

A Hollywood showrunner explains why people buy on emotion, not logic — then the host spends an hour turning his rise, collapse, and comeback into nine repeatable principles.

Posted
1 weeks ago
Duration
Format
Interview
educational
Views
34.9K
1.6K likes
Big Idea

The argument in one line.

Ben Watkins built a Hollywood career by treating every pitch as a story with four working parts — attention, emotion, teaching, and a curiosity gap — and the same four parts explain how he survived losing everything.

Who This Is For

Read if. Skip if.

READ IF YOU ARE…
  • A founder or creator who has to pitch ideas — investors, brand deals, a boss, an audience — and keeps leading with facts instead of feeling.
  • A content creator who wants a repeatable framework for hooks, not just vague advice about 'good storytelling.'
  • Someone in a career slump who wants a detailed, honest account of what a multi-year collapse and recovery actually looked like for someone else.
  • A business owner deciding whether to build a personal brand around their own story instead of just their product.
SKIP IF…
  • You're looking for screenwriting craft mechanics (structure software, format specifics) — this is about pitching and marketing, not the writing craft itself.
  • You want a 3-bullet hack list — this is a 90-minute interview plus an hour of framework breakdown, built for people willing to sit with it.
TL;DR

The full version, fast.

Hollywood showrunner Ben Watkins argues people buy on emotion, not logic, and that every pitch or piece of content lives on four pillars: grab attention, make someone feel something, teach them something, and leave them wanting more. He proves it with his own story — maxing out two credit cards for one audition, then losing a multi-million-dollar brand deal and his house in the same year before a spec script he didn't know how to write rebuilt his career. The back half distills that arc into nine repeatable principles: know your audience's psychology, engineer attention on purpose, build undeniable proof before anyone greenlights you, and treat mindset as the one thing you control when everything else collapses.

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Chapters

Where the time goes.

00:00 – 01:45

01 · Intro

Fast-cut teaser built from later lines, cold-opening on the emotion-over-logic thesis and the soap-opera-vs-brand-deal cliffhanger.

01:45 – 04:40

02 · What's Your Dream + People Buy on Emotion, Not Logic

The hosts explain the show's format (helping one audience member's dream), then Ben opens with the psyops-derived idea that decisions are emotional, not logical.

04:40 – 05:55

03 · The $129 eBay Experiment

A journalist's experiment reselling $129 of thrift junk for $8,000 using professionally written backstories, cited as proof story elevates value.

05:55 – 11:00

04 · The Anatomy of a Story: 4 Pillars

Ben lays out the four pillars — attention (surprise, emotion, calling them by their name), make them feel something, teach them something, leave them wanting more.

11:00 – 14:38

05 · Applying the Pillars to Your Pitch

Translating the four pillars into the first few seconds of a clip or pitch, and how to read a room's mood before you start.

14:38 – 17:04

06 · Good vs. Master Storyteller

The Mark Twain 'sorry this letter is so long' idea — mastery is knowing what to leave out and which details to withhold to make people ask.

17:04 – 20:58

07 · Be Addicted to Honest Feedback + Collaborate With People Pursuing Their Joy

Ben's values: seek unfiltered feedback, and hire underdogs and workaholics who are obsessed with the work, not just collecting a paycheck.

20:58 – 23:33

08 · The Nemesis Question + Dream Team Shoutout

Ben's go-to interview question (who do you call with good news, who's your nemesis) followed by the episode's sponsor-style Dream Team shoutout.

23:33 – 30:32

09 · Becoming a Showrunner: Theater to Soap Opera

From college theater to maxing two credit cards for a 'general meeting' in New York that unexpectedly turned into a soap opera audition and his first agent.

30:32 – 37:28

10 · The Short Film, the HBO Award, and the Multi-Million Dollar Campaign

His wife's idea to make a short film becomes an HBO Short Film Award winner, reopens the soap opera door, and triggers brand interest worth millions.

37:28 – 42:05

11 · "I'm Not Taking the Deal" + the Dark Night of the Soul

Ben turns down a guaranteed soap renewal to chase a brand campaign that collapses over the weekend, losing both deals and starting a year-long freefall.

42:05 – 47:26

12 · "You Give Up, I Give Up" + a New Hope

His wife's line snaps him out of the spiral; an exec asks if he has a spec script, he says yes without knowing what it is, then writes one in a week.

47:26 – 52:09

13 · Burn Notice: Becoming Indispensable + How Cross Came Together

Getting staffed on Burn Notice, making himself indispensable in the writers' room, and the years-long path to adapting Alex Cross for Amazon.

52:09 – 56:22

14 · The Greatest (Muhammad Ali) + Closing Remarks

Ben on directing a series about his hero Muhammad Ali, closing advice on persistence, and a live on-camera offer to direct a Cross season 2 episode.

56:22 – 59:30

15 · Anatomy of Ben's Dream: 1. Understand Your Audience

Host breaks down principle 1 solo to camera: study your customer's psychology like a screenwriter studies a character, using the Save the Cat beat sheet.

59:30 – 1:06:27

16 · 2. The Art of Attention

Principle 2: deliberately engineering attention via surprise (contrarian truths), emotion, and calling viewers out by describing their exact situation.

1:06:27 – 1:16:44

17 · 3. Become a Master Storyteller

Principle 3: applying storytelling to brand, pitch, and content — loglines, the 'but and therefore' structure, and what makes a good character.

1:16:44 – 1:24:05

18 · 4-6. Start Before You're Ready, Proximity, Find Your Allies

Momentum creates clarity, not the reverse; environment shapes outcomes; and allies (especially his wife Candy) are framed as essential, recruited infrastructure.

1:24:05 – 1:28:46

19 · 7-8. Create Undeniable Proof, Excellence as a Value

Principle 7: build proof before you ask for the greenlight, closing the 'imagination gap.' Principle 8: excellence in details nobody else will see.

1:28:46 – 1:32:59

20 · 9. Mindset: You Hold the Pen

Closing principle: the host turns the lens on her own current struggle and lands on Ben's core idea — you're the one holding the pen on your own story.

Atomic Insights

Lines worth screenshotting.

  • People buy based on emotion, not logic — even in a business pitch, the facts only work once you've made someone feel something first.
  • The most powerful word in any pitch or piece of content is someone's name — it stops people the way hearing their own name does in a crowded room.
  • A journalist bought 200 items on eBay for $129 total, paid writers to tell a story about each one, and resold the same junk for $8,000.
  • A good story has four pillars: it grabs attention, makes you feel something, teaches you something, and leaves you wanting more — skip one and the rest stop working.
  • The difference between a good storyteller and a master storyteller isn't what they include, it's what they know to leave out.
  • The best interview question for finding what actually drives someone: ask who they'd call first with good news, and who their nemesis is.
  • A brand paid $400,000 just to make merger negotiations exclusive, then killed the entire multi-million-dollar deal over one nervous comment from an international partner.
  • After losing the campaign and the soap opera deal in the same week, it took a full year of failure and foreclosure before his wife's line — 'you give up, I give up' — changed anything.
  • He didn't know what a spec script was when an executive asked if he had one — he said yes anyway, then learned the format and wrote one in a week.
  • Becoming indispensable in a writers' room was as simple as raising his hand every time someone hesitated, whether or not he was asked.
  • A brand's marketing isn't for everyone the product serves — it should speak to one specific person at one specific moment in their story.
  • The strongest hooks tend to do all three at once: surprise you, make you feel something, and make you feel personally called out.
  • Great stories aren't connected by 'and then' — they're connected by 'but' and 'therefore,' where every obstacle either moves the goal closer or further away.
  • Undeniable proof works because it closes the imagination gap — nobody wants to bet on something they have to picture, they want to see it already working.
  • Steve Jobs had the circuit boards inside the Macintosh laid out beautifully even though no customer would ever see them — the standard doesn't change based on who's watching.
  • The biggest obstacle in a comeback story is usually the story you're telling yourself in your head, not the hole you're actually in.
Takeaway

Emotion sells; proof gets you the yes.

STORY AS STRATEGY

A career built on selling ideas rests on the same four levers that got him through losing everything: attention, emotion, proof, and mindset.

02What's Your Dream + People Buy on Emotion, Not Logic
  • Facts about a product don't move people by themselves — price and features only work once you've tapped into an emotion underneath them.
  • The show's format is itself a proof-of-concept: the hosts pick a real audience member to help with their goals, treating every episode as a live demonstration of the principles they teach.
03The $129 eBay Experiment
  • A journalist bought 200 thrift-store items for $129 total, hired writers to give each one a short backstory, and resold the same junk for $8,000.
  • The lesson isn't that lying sells — it's that a story attaches meaning to an object that price and description alone never could.
04The Anatomy of a Story: 4 Pillars
  • A story needs four things working together: it grabs attention, makes someone feel something, teaches them something, and leaves them wanting more.
  • Attention has three levers — surprise, emotion, and using someone's name (literally or by describing their exact situation back to them).
  • Skip any one of the four pillars and the story stops working, even if the other three are executed well.
05Applying the Pillars to Your Pitch
  • The first ten seconds of any pitch or clip should hit at least one of: a surprise, an emotional beat, or language that makes the listener feel personally addressed.
  • In business pitches, facts still matter — profit margins and numbers have their place — but they only close the sale once someone is already emotionally leaning in.
06Good vs. Master Storyteller
  • The gap between a good storyteller and a master one isn't more detail — it's knowing which details to withhold so people lean in and ask.
  • Some details exist only to keep a story moving forward; others exist to be withheld on purpose, planted as seeds the listener has to ask about.
07Be Addicted to Honest Feedback + Collaborate With People Pursuing Their Joy
  • Pre-filtering feedback by asking for 'brief thoughts' instead of real notes protects your feelings and wrecks the work — ask for the harshest version instead.
  • Build with people who are chasing their own joy in the work, not just collecting a paycheck — that motivation shows up in the quality of what they produce.
09Becoming a Showrunner: Theater to Soap Opera
  • He maxed out two credit cards to fly to a 'general meeting' — an informational, no-role meeting — because showing up in person is what turned it into an actual audition.
  • A year of early momentum (five or six booked guest-star roles) can be immediately followed by a year of total silence — momentum in a creative career doesn't compound in a straight line.
10The Short Film, the HBO Award, and the Multi-Million Dollar Campaign
  • When his acting career stalled, his wife's suggestion to make a short film — just to 'have something to remember LA by' — became the pivot that relaunched his career.
  • That short film later won the HBO Short Film Award at the American Black Film Festival and directly reopened a soap opera role that had gone cold.
  • A brand paid a $400,000 exclusivity fee just to negotiate a campaign around his short film's premise — before the deal collapsed entirely.
11"I'm Not Taking the Deal" + the Dark Night of the Soul
  • He turned down a guaranteed soap opera renewal to bet on a multi-million-dollar brand campaign that fell apart over a single nervous comment from an overseas partner.
  • The fallout cost him the soap role, the brand deal, and eventually the house — a slide that took roughly a year to fully surface.
12"You Give Up, I Give Up" + a New Hope
  • His wife's one line — 'you give up, I give up' — was what broke a year-long depressive spiral that willpower and self-pity hadn't touched.
  • He didn't know what a spec script was when an executive asked if he had one; he said yes anyway, then learned the format and wrote one in a week.
13Burn Notice: Becoming Indispensable + How Cross Came Together
  • He made himself indispensable in the writers' room by volunteering for tasks nobody assigned him — drafting emails and scenes before anyone asked, stepping into every hesitation he noticed.
  • Adapting Alex Cross for Amazon started with a pitch he initially turned down, then got greenlit, then got quietly passed on before ultimately shooting.
14The Greatest (Muhammad Ali) + Closing Remarks
  • He avoided pitching to direct 'The Greatest,' a series about his personal hero Muhammad Ali, specifically because it scared him — and did it anyway because of that fear.
  • The interview ends with a live, unscripted surprise: the host offers him a directing episode on Cross season two on camera.
15Principle 1: Understand Your Audience
  • Knowing a customer's psychology means going past demographics to their want, need, nemesis, and what's standing in their way — the same profile a screenwriter builds for a character.
  • A product might serve everyone, but marketing should speak to one specific person at one specific moment in their journey, not to the whole audience at once.
16Principle 2: The Art of Attention
  • A contrarian truth — saying the opposite of what people expect — is one of the most reliable ways to make someone stop scrolling.
  • Ask before publishing: what will people write in the comments? If you can already picture 'this is so true' or 'I completely disagree,' the hook is working.
  • Calling someone 'by their name' doesn't require their literal name — it means describing their exact fear or situation accurately enough that they recognize themselves.
17Principle 3: Become a Master Storyteller
  • Great stories connect with 'but' and 'therefore,' not 'and then' — every obstacle should either move the goal closer or further away, or it doesn't belong.
  • A logline forces clarity: who's the main character, what do they want, what's standing in their way — for a business, the customer is the main character.
  • A compelling character wants something specific, has relatable flaws, and changes because of the journey — three tests worth applying to your own content persona.
18Principles 4-6: Start Before You're Ready, Proximity, Find Your Allies
  • Momentum creates clarity, not the other way around — waiting to feel ready is usually just another form of not starting.
  • Physically moving toward opportunity isn't required, but making a visible, significant move that announces your intentions increases the odds people root for you and open doors.
  • The strongest allies aren't just cheerleaders — they're the people who believed in you before there was proof, and cutting out people who make you shrink matters as much as recruiting the ones who don't.
19Principles 7-8: Create Undeniable Proof, Excellence as a Value
  • Undeniable proof works by closing the 'imagination gap' — nobody wants to bet money or time on something they still have to picture; they want to see it already working.
  • Excellence as a value means caring about details nobody else will ever see — the standard doesn't change based on who's watching.
20Principle 9: Mindset — You Hold the Pen
  • The hardest obstacle in a comeback is usually the story being told in your own head, not the actual hole you're in.
  • Treating yourself as the one 'holding the pen' reframes a setback from something that happened to you into the next scene you get to write.
Glossary

Terms worth knowing.

Spec script
An original script written on speculation, based on an existing TV show, used to prove a writer can work in someone else's voice before getting staffed.
General meeting
An informal industry meeting with no role attached — a casting director or executive meets someone just to have a reference point for later.
Showrunner
The head writer and executive producer of a TV series, responsible for the overall creative vision — described in the interview as 'the god of TV.'
Logline
A one-sentence summary of a story's main character, what they want, and what stands in their way — used to pitch a film or TV show.
Save the Cat
A widely used screenwriting book that maps story structure onto a beat sheet, referenced here as a tool for understanding a customer's emotional journey.
Curiosity gap
The space between what someone knows and what they want to know — the tension a hook creates that makes people keep watching or reading.
Undeniable proof
Visible results (a demo, a pilot, a user base) that remove the need for someone to imagine an idea working before they say yes to it.
Resources

Things they pointed at.

01:45linkEpisode worksheet + bonus resources ↗
01:45link"Deck That Sold Cross" — Ben's real series pitch document ↗
57:30bookSave the Cat (screenwriting beat-sheet book)
47:26productBurn Notice (USA Network)
52:09productCross (Amazon Prime series)
53:45productThe Greatest (Muhammad Ali limited series)
1:04:09channelCallaway (referenced for the contrarian-truth hook technique)
1:12:30channelCaleb Ralston (referenced for world-building brand video)
Quotables

Lines you could clip.

02:46
“People buy based on emotion, not logic.”
one-line thesis, works with zero context→ TikTok hook↗ Tweet quote
06:03
“The most powerful word in the universe is someone's name.”
punchy, quotable claim about attention→ IG reel cold open↗ Tweet quote
14:38
“It's not the ability to paint the picture more — it's the ability to know what to leave out.”
contrarian craft insight on storytelling mastery→ newsletter pull-quote↗ Tweet quote
42:05
“You give up, I give up.”
emotional gut-punch line from his wife, minimal setup needed→ TikTok hook↗ Tweet quote
52:09
“Friday, crickets. You have no campaign and you're being written off for the soap.”
a full tense mini-story with a built-in cliffhanger→ IG reel cold open↗ Tweet quote
1:28:46
“I'm the one holding the pen.”
closing mantra, works as a standalone motivational clip→ TikTok hook↗ Tweet quote
1:21:01
“An ally should give you strength. They do not make you shrink.”
quotable line on relationships and support systems→ newsletter pull-quote↗ Tweet quote
1:24:05
“Nobody wants to take a risk on something they have to imagine.”
clean insight on proof beating pitching→ IG reel cold open↗ Tweet quote
The Script

Word for word.

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metaphoranalogystory
00:00A lot of people wanna outsource storytelling. They wanna hire marketers, advertising agencies, PR.
00:05But the truth is you gotta master it first. And the only way to get money is to tell the right story. Let's break it down.
00:10What is the anatomy of a good story? This is gonna sound simple, but nobody nobody does does it.
00:15This is what I do. Meet Ben Watkins, creator turned founder and one of the greatest storytelling minds in the business. And today, he's revealing his storytelling secrets to creating content that's impossible to ignore.
00:29You have to grab their attention. The most powerful word in the universe is someone's name. In a crowd of people, you can say one person's name, they turn, and they look at you.
00:37It doesn't matter what the content is. You need to have things in there where it feels like you're talking to them. That will stop people in their tracks.
00:43And how to sell your ideas so you can break through in any dream. People buy based on emotion, not logic. So if you have a product, you can tell how useful it is, what the price is, but that's not enough.
00:54You need to I'm literally stealing that from now on. I wanna thank my wife. I am living the dream.
00:59You are the one who created that dream. I was still working the nine to five, but I must have booked five, six shows during that first year. Then a soap opera calls for The Young and the Restless, I get the part.
01:09I start making good money, we buy a house. Meanwhile, a bunch of brands are interested in doing a branded campaign. It was multi million dollars.
01:17Right around that time, I'm in negotiations with the soap opera. The soap says, you need to tell us by end of day Thursday. My agent said, just take the deal.
01:23My wife says, just take the deal. Said I'm not taking the deal. Candy's like you're crazy.
01:27Why wouldn't you just take the deal? I said I got this campaign. I'll be able to make a living for it.
01:31She's like but the campaign's not closed. And I'm like but it's gonna be closed on Friday. Friday, crickets.
01:37You have no campaign and you're being written off for the soap. Oh my god. So
01:42what happens next?
01:45In previous videos, we have talked about a project where we pick one dream to help out with all as part of a project called what's your dream. The only problem with that is that they are very time consuming and ultimately we can only help out with one dream. So we have changed things up, and now we help with various dreams in smaller ways.
02:00So that can mean connecting you with someone that's gonna help you in your dream, or that can mean meeting with you and giving you advice. Whatever it may be, we want to literally help you.
02:10Let us know in the comments what your dream is, what you are currently struggling with, and make sure that you are subscribed because you might just hear from us very soon.
02:20I also wanna say at the end of our interview with Ben, we're gonna be breaking down his entire journey into principles and actionable steps so that you can apply it into your dream and your business today. Alright, guys. Let's get into the video.
02:43Ben, what is something that you wish everyone understood about the story?
02:46People buy based on emotion, not logic. And I I used to work on a show called Burn Notice. Right?
02:52And the the main character is a spy who's been blacklisted. So you can imagine the type of research I was doing. And I actually got my hands on a classified document one time, and it was about psyops.
03:03And one of the key tenets was that they said humans don't make decisions based on logic, they make them based on emotion. So if you have a product, it really doesn't matter.
03:14Right? I mean, you can tell about how good the product is, how useful it is, what the price is. But somewhere in there, you need to tap into your consumers, your customers emotion.
03:26And for me, the way we elicit emotion is through telling stories. When you look at storytelling, do you think it's something that
03:33let's say a business owner. Is this something that applies to them? Do they have to learn how to master story?
03:38Yeah. Absolutely. When you understand story and how to use it,
03:42your hit rate on success goes up exponentially. I know that because learning how to tell a story changed my life. Some of the most successful people in the world, a big reason they got to where they are is because they're master storytellers.
03:57Taylor Swift, Steve Jobs, Barack Obama. Three different industries, same skill.
04:03They all mastered storytelling. And a lot of people wanna outsource storytelling. They wanna hire marketers, advertising agencies, promoters, PR, but the truth is you gotta master it first.
04:15If everyone understood that, then they can harness that power. That doesn't mean you're gonna become a paid screenwriter in Hollywood, but it is something to embrace and use.
04:25I mean, when you look at an episode of Shark Tank, as somebody goes to sell a product, but 99% of the time, what's really getting bought is the story.
04:35I firmly believe storytelling is something anyone can learn and actually, I think it's something everyone should learn. What's really interesting is that people really do underestimate
04:43the power of story and I actually found this experiment that I genuinely like, I wish I knew this earlier and I wish everyone knew it. It's basically this journalist, he got 200 items off of eBay, and he bought it for a $129.
04:56And then he decided he was gonna resell them, but with the caveat that he was gonna get professional writers to write a story about each item, and he makes $8,000.
05:04Oh. And so story clearly elevates the value of something. It's because it's tapping into an emotion.
05:10People make decisions based on that. That's what my job is. Like, when I actually go in to sell something, now it's all about the emotion.
05:16So I have to get you connected, and when I do, the chances of you buying that pitch,
05:23they skyrocket. So if someone wants to dramatically improve their storytelling skills,
05:28where should they start? I think the first place you start is what I call principles of messaging, which is what are you trying to say? Why are you saying this?
05:37Who is this for? And what are you promising the audience? When I go to tell a story, I have to have a bigger, uh, purpose for telling that story that helps become what I would call it a North Star.
05:48Right. And then I make decisions based on that.
05:52So
05:53let's break it down. What is the anatomy of a good story? For me, there are four key pillars to a good story, and the first one is get their attention.
06:03What are the different ways that we can get someone's attention? I'm sure there's a million ways, but but for me, it boils down to three key ways. The first way is surprise.
06:12The human brain is engineered to relax based on familiarity and pattern recognition. And as soon as you break the pattern, people perk up. The second way is emotion.
06:23That's obvious. Uh, it's not always easy to do, but when they feel that emotion, if I'm the cause of that emotion, then they're focused on me.
06:31Mhmm. And then the third way that I like to get someone's attention is what I call call them by their name. Once you notice this pattern, you start seeing it everywhere.
06:40It's basically inspired by an old African proverb by the most powerful word in the universe is someone's name. That's the most powerful way to get their attention. That will stop people in their tracks.
06:50In a crowd of people, you can say one person's name, they turn and they look at you. That almost becomes the easiest way to do it. Now, it doesn't matter what the content is.
06:59You need to have things in there where it feels like they can relate to it, almost feels like you're talking to them, or that condition or that circumstance is what they feel. Think about how many people woke up every day with some sort of plan to start some sort of New Year's resolution or change some sort of habit or behavior, and then a slogan
07:18comes out and says, just do it. And they think it's saying that right to them. That's how easy it is to call people by their name.
07:24This is really like all coming together for you when I'm hearing you say this because it's making me think of Steve Jobs. He had that, you know, that really beautiful commercial of think different. Right?
07:33And it starts with here's to the crazy ones. Right? What really worked about that commercial and it really, I think, cemented the ethos of Apple in general, which is it's to the rebels.
07:42Mhmm. It's to the ones who think different. That's right.
07:45And I think anyone that felt like a creative, an outlier, someone who had been made fun of for thinking different Yeah. They saw themselves in that commercial. And suddenly, they were relating to people like Einstein.
07:54Mhmm. Right? People want to know that you're speaking to them in some capacity.
07:57Yep. Now, let's translate that into how long into a clip do you have before you're gonna lose their attention, and what do you need to happen within seconds? How do you use sound to get people's attention?
08:07What song is gonna make them lean in? What can someone say? Can you have a surprise
08:12that makes people perk up? Can you say something in those first ten seconds that's gonna connect with people emotionally? Are you gonna say something that caused them by their name in the first ten seconds?
08:23If so, you're probably gonna get them to lean in. And so you mentioned there are four different ways to tell a good story. What is number two?
08:29The first pillar is attention. The second pillar when it comes to telling a good story is you have to make them feel something. For me, it boiled down to three c's.
08:38Can you get content, character, and circumstances working at the same time? All three eliciting emotion. Can you get Titanic where you have two characters you care about?
08:47That's the characters professing their love, that's the content while the ship is sinking, there's your circumstance. If you get all those three working, then you're gonna have Titanic. I think what I'm interested in is how do storytellers actually create emotion rather than just hoping that an audience is gonna feel it.
09:04We're just talking about the difference between stating a fact and and telling a story. So people who state a fact, that's not enough because I'm not making this decision based on logic. I need you to tap into my emotion.
09:15It's the difference between a commercial where a product just gets described and a commercial that makes people feel like they are the ones using that product and needing that product. It makes them feel a certain way.
09:27So I don't want you to just see my resume. I want you to see me. What's number three?
09:33The third pillar for me in storytelling is that it should teach you something. I actually look for opportunities to take a world people are familiar with and show them parts of it that they didn't know were there, and they're gonna learn something from that. Now we can take this all the way back to being around the campfire as cavemen, and I'm telling you a story about the bear that attacked me, and what you're learning is how to avoid an attack, how to survive an attack, how heavy bears are, how many claws.
10:00You're learning everything about a bear in the context of a really cool story.
10:04You lean in when that happens. I think it just goes back to just we're living in a day where there's we're so oversaturated with content that a huge part of a way to do that to really stick in someone's mind is to teach them something because ultimately you're providing them value Yeah. By doing that.
10:18Right? And so people don't feel like they've just had like empty calories. They feel like they've had something of substance.
10:23And number four? Number four is leaving them wanting more. And so what's the key to a good cliffhanger?
10:28I actually don't approach it as cliffhangers. I actually approach it as questions. Okay.
10:32I need to establish a question between myself and the audience that they have to get that answered. And everything I've done up to that point before I ask the question has to also be promising them that the way that gets answered, they're going to really appreciate.
10:47So that's what I consider leaving them wanting more. It reminds me of like the curiosity gap. You're just really trying to make that curiosity gap as wide as possible.
10:56Yeah. So from a business lens, how would you from what you've seen, I mean, you're a business owner, how do you apply those principles? I mean, the story stuff, that one is the most important in the business side.
11:06Right? I all those pillars come into play. It's like when I go into pitch, I'm not only gonna tell you this story, but I need to do it in a way where you become emotionally attached to me as the storyteller and to what I like to say infect people with the purpose of the project.
11:20If I inspire them, if I get them infected in the purpose of this project, now they're just thinking about, I need to make that because there's a reason for it. I mean, literally, my rule when I go into a pitch is that the first thing they should do leaving that room is call their boss or call their wife or their husband or grab a coworker and be talking about the pitch they just heard.
11:43I mean, sometimes it's as simple as me saying, I think we should do this for our story. And all of a sudden, they're emotionally invested in our story
11:52and every decision they make, they start to filter through that lens. I've heard there's like a study that if someone gives you a piece of like, even just an idea and a that increases the odds of them wanting to actually execute on whatever it is. It could be an investment or it could be green lighting a show Yeah.
12:06That it actually increases their odds because now they feel ownership over it. Yeah. Yeah.
12:09Yeah. Absolutely. When they offer an idea,
12:12you riff on that. You don't even have to incorporate that idea. Just riffing on that makes them feel like they're part of the process.
12:19That makes them have ownership. Now they're gonna fight tooth and nail to make sure that thing works.
12:25Now if I wanna shorten the time it takes to connect with you, I need to know about you as well. So I'm reading you as soon as I get into the room.
12:33What is your mood? A lot of people, oh, no. Oh, no.
12:37She's in a bad mood. I don't think that's a bad thing. If you're in a bad mood, it's gonna be harder to get you engaged.
12:44But if I flip the script, I just became the best part of your day. Just the thought that somebody could be having a terrible day and that that is actually a good thing.
12:53Yeah. I've never heard anyone say that before. But isn't aren't those the best stories?
12:56Yeah. I mean, they're key to everyone's story. It's like something's not going right, and then there's a breakthrough.
13:02Right. So we can do that cycle all the time. They can be assume they'll be do you assume prepare that they'll be in a bad mood just in case to Oh, yeah.
13:10Absolutely. In my business, I go in thinking you're either in a bad mood or you're running out of time or you're bored or you've heard five pitches. I'm the sixth.
13:19You had a heavy lunch. It's gonna be hard for you to even stay awake. Yeah.
13:23And then I'm gonna make sure that this pitch is gonna change all of that. I gotta be ready for this pitch and the way I deliver it to change all of that.
13:32That alone is memorable. I walk in the rooms, I'm always doing research of who am I gonna be talking to. And not only do I wanna know who they are, but I'm looking for the ways we overlap because that means I'm gonna be able to speed up the amount of time it takes for us to have a connection.
13:45If we any overlap we have, it could be two degrees of separation or it could be something surprising, it turns out we both went to the same school. Never knew that. I'm not gonna go in there and be like, hey, we both went to the same school.
13:56I'm gonna wait until a certain moment then I'm just gonna find a good way to drop that. They're gonna perk up And now all of a sudden, I've triggered nostalgia up. Mhmm.
14:04So I'm always looking for every chance I have to create those type of connections. Who am I talking to?
14:10What am I telling them? How do I affect them with my purpose? I feel like when you're talking, just makes me think it's becoming a master of stories almost like becoming a master in people.
14:20When we think about getting to know someone and we think about especially like character for example, the way that I see that it translate to even just business. Right? Getting to know the consumer, the way that you get to know a character, you are going to increase your odds of success there.
14:33100%. And so I wanna do a very mini rapid fire. Okay.
14:39I'm sure you've seen a good storyteller before your eyes that are they're just at a dinner party or in a pitch, they're telling you a good story. What do you feel is the difference between a good storyteller and a master storyteller? It it's not all the
14:50ability to like really paint the picture more. No.
14:54No. No. No.
14:55No. It's the ability to know what to leave out. It's more about what you don't say.
14:59It's like that quote from Mark Twain. I'm not gonna get it perfect, but it's like, I'm sorry this letter is so long. I didn't have time to make it shorter.
15:07That is what separates
15:09good storytellers from master storytellers. When you're telling a story, how do you decide which details to include and which ones to leave out? I can do the storytelling when it's written.
15:18But the second I'm telling a story to my friends, I have ADHD, so I have, like, all these anecdotes that I feel like are important and especially pitching them like, but this is really important backstory. Need to include this. Alright.
15:27And it becomes really overwhelming. Mhmm. So how do you know which details you should leave in in that story and which ones you should leave out?
15:33I'll come up with two categories. So there's details you need to keep the story moving forward And then there are details you withhold because you want people to lean in and ask.
15:42Make them ask. So when you're telling a story, you'd be like, what detail do I have to tell to keep the momentum of this pitch, and what detail do I wanna plant seeds that make them ask about it, and then you get to show off.
15:55Right. But you didn't ramble, you didn't drone on it. Maybe this is an out there question, but I'm thinking about, like, a business owner that's, like, pitching their company.
16:02I feel like the desire is to just, like, give all the clarity in the world, but what you're saying is that that that's not always good. Right? Because that maybe doesn't invite No.
16:09No. No. No.
16:09No. Again, let's go back. Like, logic is not gonna make this decision.
16:12Mhmm. I might need facts.
16:15I might need, you know, what is the the profit margin, the projected profit margin, what are our sales up there? Those are facts. That's fine.
16:21Mostly what I need is for you to lean in and well, what is this used for? Why does that matter? Who am I working with?
16:27Why does that matter? Soon as you know you have somebody emotionally, that's when you move on.
16:32In a pitch, I have multiple categories when I'm pitching, and I might have a whole thing planned. But as soon as I start saying, see you go like this, I'm gonna truncate that section. If you decide you wanna come back and ask more about it, then we're having a conversation.
16:45Now I'm winning even more. So if you're selling something and you so we say, here's you're talking through the numbers and you can already tell they're like, yeah, the numbers. I'm already good on the number.
16:54Okay. Now we're talking something else. We're moving to another section.
16:57Somebody might say, okay. Let's dig more into the numbers later, but we're not gonna do that right now. We're not gonna over explain.
17:05Actually, I wanna talk quickly. You have values that I thought were really interesting that I would like to read to you that I picked a few of my favorites. Oh, okay.
17:12So one of them is be addicted to honest feedback, it'll make you rich. Yes. It's tough to write.
17:19It's even harder to share that writing with the world, even with people close to you. I remember sharing a script with someone and saying, but, know, I've already done four drafts. So I mean, really, I'm just looking for some, you know, brief thoughts about I remember basically pre filtering their feedback.
17:36And I also remember someone asking me what type of notes do you want. I realized, okay, we're faking it now.
17:43We're taking care of my feelings. And so from that point forward, I just stopped worrying about what people are gonna say. I wanted as honest as it can get because I I don't care about my feelings.
17:53I want this script to be right. And once I did that, the scripts came in so much sharper, so much more bulletproof, and they worked for me so much better. They would either sell or they would open the doors to great opportunities and jobs.
18:06So there's another value that I wanna bring up, and it's collaborate with people who are pursuing their joy. The underdogs, the overachievers,
18:14the workaholics,
18:16people who are honest, inspired, and passionate about what they do. To that point, are these people that you overall, I've heard people say, look for the person with a chip on their shoulders. It's kind of more or less what you mean by that?
18:27I would say that's part of it. Right? This is something that I believe in because it makes your environment better.
18:31The underdogs,
18:33the people who are super motivated, and they're ambitious. They get other people inspired. They get other people excited, and they always do more.
18:40Some of them show up, and it's like, they've been doing this for twenty years and they show up like it's the first day at Disneyland, wide eyed and wonderment that changes how they do their job. It changes how everyone around them is.
18:51That's what we're looking for. I want them to be so invested that they will save my show one day no matter what position they're in, and I want you to be obsessed with what we're doing.
19:03And I don't believe in that work life balance thing. It's just life. It's just life.
19:10So you need to enjoy coming and doing this project as much as you would enjoy spending time with your loved ones, going on a vacation. Like, that's how much I want you to be looking forward to this. And then I know when you leave and it's like eleven at night and you hear a song and you go, that would be perfect for this scene.
19:29Or you see an actor and like, they'd be perfect in that role. Or you read an article and you say, this will be great for a show and you're doing this at eleven at night because you're so engaged. I'm literally stealing that from now on.
19:42I mean, that's my favorite take on work life balance I've ever heard in my life. There's so many examples of that. I was season six of Burn Notice.
19:48We lost a location one time and we were having a conversation outside of a craft food truck. We're just, like, panicking, scrambling. This thing, like, shoots a day or two later.
19:58And the woman on the craft services truck says, I think I might know a place that will work great.
20:05And I said, well, hold on. How did you know and she was reading the scripts.
20:13She cared about the outcome of this show. She wasn't just collecting a check. And when I found that out, I said, need to do that with everybody I work with.
20:20And that means they have to feel value. So if I ever show up to a set and they feel like the hierarchy is so entrenched that they have to act or perform or be on guard,
20:31then that means that they haven't been infused with this sense that they're just as valuable as anybody else here. You know, when you come on set, like, people aren't holding their breath, which is, like, really impressive. It's really beautiful that you created a culture that you're on set, and it it's exciting.
20:43It's like, okay. Like, we don't have to no one has to act. Yeah.
20:47I think that that's really important for culture because if you have a team that's acting different in front of you than behind you,
20:53then you haven't really set the foundation. When you're looking for and hiring someone, what is a question that you ask in your interviews? Okay.
20:59So if I'm really considering somebody for a crucial role, I I wanna not only find out what they're good at, I wanna find out what makes them tick. And I will ask questions that are designed to give me a window into their, uh, motivation. And two of them are, you know, if something great happens to you, who's the first person you call?
21:19Mhmm. And the second one is, who's your nemesis?
21:24And I asked that question because if you have a nemesis, that's a chip on your shoulder. People sometimes are motivated by that.
21:31I remember being motivated by that. I remember being motivated by, I want this person to hear that I just stole the show because they told me I'd never get there.
21:43Mhmm. That's a nemesis. And a lot of folks have those people and sometimes I've talked to people and asked that question.
21:50It'll be somebody like Arrival in the eighth grade. Yeah. And they're just like, I dream of them reading that deadline announcement when I got my first show.
21:58Oh, going to a high school reunion and the person that always used to make fun of me, now they see what I've become. And I don't want you to live your whole life with that, but I do wanna know if there's that energy there because I know you're gonna have a little extra oomph in what you're doing.
22:15And also, it gives me a chance to kinda tap into you because some people haven't really thought about it, but it's actually operating on the subconscious and it's something you should think about because it's unfinished business.
22:27Hey, Roy. Do you wanna take a vacation? That sounds fun.
22:29You know who we're gonna take a vacation with? Who? Well, not with her, but through her.
22:33And
22:35this episode is not sponsored, but it is our shout out.
22:40Do I do it here or there? We have a tradition on this channel where we like to shout out one of your dreams. The one that we wanna shout out today is travel with Barb's.
22:48We have met with Barbara, and she is not only lovely and incredible and on top of it, but she also really does understand how to make it easier for people who are traveling. I have never never met anyone as passionate about traveling than her as her. She has no idea that we're doing this, but we wanna celebrate her because she is absolutely crushing it at her dream.
23:08She has been working towards this for a very, very long time, and you can see on her content all of the love and the work that she is putting on there. So give her a follow, comment on her videos, send her a DM. I'm gonna put her website right here so that you can kind of see a little bit more of what she does, the services that she offers.
23:25Just wanna congratulate you, Barbara. You're doing an incredible job, and you are inspiring us. Can't wait for that next vaca
23:33Back to the video. So I wanna move on to your story. You're a showrunner, which for those who don't know what a showrunner is, I like to call it like they are the god of TV.
23:43Right? In film, you have, you know, the directors, it's their medium, but in TV, it's the writers. And you are the lead writer, the the creator in a lot of instances, but you are it's your vision and your show.
23:55So you are a showrunner and currently, you have one of the most prevalent shows in Hollywood at the moment on Amazon. We have Cross season two which is out.
24:04Mhmm. And what's interesting is that you didn't always start off in the writing game.
24:10You started off in another arena
24:13very close by Yes. In acting. Yeah.
24:16I started off doing theater in college on a fluke, fell in love with it, and most of it was acting. And I thought I would pursue acting as a career. I'd gotten out of college and started doing a little regional theater, and then I just started to build some network connections.
24:30And then one day, I had a director, a mentor of mine who spoke to a casting director in New York, and I lived in California.
24:38And she said, well, if you're ever in New York, come on in for a general meeting. And I thought, oh, this is my big break.
24:49I didn't know anything about Hollywood. I just knew that this big time casting director, she happened to be a casting director for a soap opera, was saying she wanted to meet me. And so I was married at the time, married my wife Candy in college and both of us are like naive, we're also delusional and I will say that our whole lives we have always leaned into the delusional naivete.
25:11Sometimes even being what I would call self imposed delusion so that we're more willing to take risks.
25:17But in this case, we like took two credit cards that were basically almost at their limit, combined them to buy me a ticket to New York. She said, whenever you're in New York, well, I'll be in New York in two weeks.
25:29And for those who don't know what a general meeting is? Oh, that's that that's the first thing. Anybody who hears this story that has been in the business, they're like, hold on, hold on, hold on.
25:38You sat there and maxed out two credit cards while you were broke just to fly to New York for a general meeting. A general meeting is like casting directors having them with actors just to get to know them, see their face so that later when they have them in auditions, they'll already have a reference point.
25:54There's no role. You're not about to go there and win a role and get your big break. That's just them literally just meeting you.
26:02They shake your hand. They say, hi. Where are you from?
26:04You get your name and then you're the door. 95% of them lead to nothing. I would say probably more than that, but Most of them they never remember you.
26:11The only reason they're any good is it's gonna be like, oh, it's good to see you again. Mhmm. Versus, oh, it's nice to meet you.
26:16That is literally it. And when you say it's good to see you again, they're looking at you like, I saw you before? So I fly there, it's still winter.
26:24I have no winter clothes. I'm walking through New York. I show up to this lady's office.
26:28She didn't know that I got onto the calendar because I was put on by her assistant. So when I show up and I say who I am and she she literally says, hold on.
26:38You flew on the way to New York for a general? And I said, yeah.
26:44And in my mind, I'm thinking, how why is that stupid? I'm thinking general means you generally are interested.
26:50And so it gave her pause, but then it changed everything because then she said, I'm gonna have you do a scene. She never intended for me to do a scene. She just said, I'm gonna have you do a scene since you've come 3,000 miles in the middle of winter.
27:06She gives me the scene. I have, like, thirty minutes to prepare. I go put the scene on tape, then she says, come in here.
27:14This scene was really good. I'm actually gonna put you up for a role. By the time I left New York, I had an agent and I got cast in a small role on that soap opera.
27:24Then I go back home. I make a deal with my wife, Candy. We have two kids, and she says, um, I'll go with you to LA,
27:32but let's make it a year. Okay. So this is, like, really the launch of your career, and so you move to LA.
27:38Do you think that people still need to move for opportunity? I'm gonna have two answers. When you're talking about whether or not you should physically move to areas where that business has a sort of a center or hub or nucleus, The answer is one, you don't have to, but I still say go.
27:57And the reason I say go is because when you start chasing your dream on top of becoming great at what it is you wanna do, on top of building out your network, on top of rolling the dice, when you say I'm moving, everybody who knows you, they know you're now taking that risk.
28:16Everybody you meet in this new town that hears your story and realizes that you rolled the dice and you had the courage to actually come there, now they are rooting for you. They know what's at risk. If I'm in some small town saying, hey, if I start getting some momentum, I'll move.
28:33Well, hey, man. I got five people here who already risked everything. Right.
28:38They risked it all. And I'm gonna judge anyone who feels like they gotta stay, um, in a place based on their circumstances, but I am saying I encourage you to make significant steps that announce to the world what your intentions are.
28:52So you moved to LA and then you got work as a a paralegal. Right? Oh, yeah.
28:56So I I have a paralegal gig set up in LA. We get there. The manager's like, you can't have a nine to five job and pursue this.
29:03And I remember saying to him, what if I have no choice? People in Hollywood, people in the entertainment industry, they always giving you all the reasons it won't work as if the conditions have to be perfect, but they never are. So I just say, man, I don't I'm not taking no for an answer.
29:16I don't have a choice. I have a wife and two kids. I have to have a nine to five job and still make this work.
29:23And then to his credit, he was like, alright. Let's do it. And so now I'm pursuing acting in Los Angeles at that time.
29:30And it wasn't that easy? Mm-mm. So what happens during this time?
29:34Because we had a little bit of what if in screenwriting, we would call a mislead because the first year went great.
29:40And I was booking all these shows, and I was getting all this momentum, and I was getting all this great feedback. And was still working the nine to five, but I I must have booked five, six shows as a guest star during that first year. So that first year was fruitful enough that we decided to extend it by a year, and then the second year was crickets.
29:58I was still gaining momentum even to the point where I was what they call screen testing for big shows, and I didn't know how important screen testing is in terms of the overall process, which means they like you so much they're considering you for a series regular, and you've made it to, like, the last two or three people.
30:14You even signed the contract. So if they pick you, you've already signed a contract, you're on the show. I screen tested for three big shows that year, did not book any of them, and to anyone else, that's great momentum.
30:28To my wife and I, it was like, it's time to move back. Hey. We gave it a nice run.
30:32Right? And then my wife recommends to me, hey. Why don't you make that short film that you've been talking about for a couple of years?
30:39And then you'll have something to remember LA by. I was like, that's a great idea.
30:44So I started down the road of writing and producing a short film. I had no idea how hard that was gonna be and how slim the chances of that making a difference are, but that worked in my favor at the time.
30:57Because by the time I realized how hard it is to get a short film done the way I wanted it done, it was too late. I was so far down the road, I I had to finish. I mean, spent your own money making
31:07that film. Right? Mhmm.
31:08Mhmm. How important do you think it is to bet on yourself before anyone else does? I think that your
31:14first investor, no matter what you're doing and no matter what resource we are talking about, has to be you. So are we talking about time?
31:23Are we talking about blood? Are we talking about sweat? Are we talking about tears?
31:26Are we talking about money? Whoever that is, whatever that resource is, you can afford something. And as soon as you put a little bit up, maybe it is like what I did where I paid a couple of friends to help me make a little demo because people weren't taking to the idea right away.
31:41So I thought, oh, well, maybe if I put something on camera and get to know the character and the premise, that'll help. Sure enough, I get some friends, bring a camera, I dress up in a referee uniform, I go to the playgrounds in the inner city, and I tell the players who are playing pickup basketball that I'm from the city of LA, and they have a new program they're exploring where they send refs to pick up courts all across the city.
32:07And so I'm gonna ref your games, and we're gonna film it so that our bosses can see if it works. And we do that.
32:16We get the footage. I almost get killed. We cut it up.
32:20We show that to people and they're like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We'll help you with this short.
32:24So you gotta be your first investor. You gotta take that first step. You gotta show people how much you believe in yourself.
32:32At that point, people have watched this short and people that I trust and people that I admire have said they love the short. I'm elated by that, but I don't think anything else beyond that. I'm planning to move back to Northern California.
32:44And my wife and I, we had a mailbox. She goes in, gets the mail, comes into the car, starts going through the envelopes, and there's an envelope from the American Black Film Festival.
32:56It says I've been selected. And I didn't realize that American Black Film Festival also has this thing called the HBO short film award. And if you win, you get money.
33:06I mean, we were screaming in the car. People would have thought we were crazy. And it goes to that festival and it wins that festival.
33:13So we get money. Then while I'm at the festival, a soap opera calls say, hey, we want to audition this guy for a callback.
33:21I said, well, I can't make the callback because, uh, I'm at a film festival.
33:26And the cast owner said, for for what? A short film I did, not that I had started. And she says, well, can you send me the short?
33:33I send her the short. I go through this film festival. By the time I win the film festival, I'm also getting a call from Los Angeles, and they are saying, forget the callback.
33:43We wanna test this guy. If he gets the part, we'll rewrite it so that the character will be younger.
33:50So I'm flying back knowing that I'm about to screen test for The Young and the Restless. And the reason is because the executive producer who had already said, I think he's too young, has changed his mind because he's seen my performance in the short film.
34:05And then I screen test for The Young and the Restless, I get the part, and I sign a contract role, and it keeps me in Los Angeles.
34:13And I and there was a a story about a campaign.
34:17Okay. Yeah. So I wonder did your homework.
34:23Yeah. There's a part of this story I don't tell a lot of people because it it led to some of the toughest times I've had as a creative, some of the toughest times I've had in the business.
34:33Us as a family, uh, it led to a really, really tough stretch. Basically, I started doing the soap.
34:42I started making good money. We buy a house.
34:46But meanwhile, the short film is still making the rounds, goes to Sundance. People in the industry are starting to clock in and reach out. And there are also a company that thinks it would be great to do a commercial campaign around reaches out and they actually get a bunch of brands interested in doing a branded campaign.
35:07Like, take this character, take the premise, and somehow attach it to your product. And that was down to two brands.
35:14A brand paid 6 figures just to make the negotiations exclusive.
35:20They said, we will pay literally $400,000 just so that during this window, the negotiations will be exclusive.
35:28And then the campaign itself was multimillion dollars. Right around that time, I'm in negotiations with the soap opera. And they are saying, hey, every year you will get a little more money and a little more guarantee in terms of how many episodes that you star in.
35:42And for soap operas, the most important thing is how many episodes do they guarantee. If they guarantee you two episodes per week, you know what you're gonna make minimum. And if you get popular or they use you more, you only make money on top of that.
35:55And they were gonna increase my guarantee. So I was gonna make more money, but they said we won't increase how much you're making per episode because soap operas just aren't, you know, as popular as they used to be, and I told them no.
36:09I said, you're gonna give me the step up in guarantees and you're gonna give me the money. And my agent said, you're crazy. The soap was like, oh, you're crazy.
36:18I heard you just bought a house. What are you doing? And they everybody loves me at this point.
36:22The EP calls me. He's like, Ben, I love you.
36:25I love your family. I love you two kids. Like, what are you doing right now?
36:28And my wife says, why? What are you what are you doing? I said, well, you know, I've been writing this time, and I'm starting to really like it.
36:36And I got this campaign, so, you know, I feel like I'll be able to make a living for us, um, doing the writing thing.
36:46And my wife's saying, wait a minute. Like, this soap is like a part time job. Like, at the most, you're gonna work four days in a week, and even when you do, they run it so efficiently, you're only there for half a day.
36:56And I said, well, I don't care. Are they gonna honor what it was or I'm gonna leave, and I'm playing hardball with them. Next thing you know, this negotiation with a big, big brand, a global brand, they're saying we wanna do it.
37:09And all this is happening simultaneously, so the deal with the brand company is unfolding, unfolding. Every update is like, you're gonna get paid this much and, oh, it's gonna go for this long and, oh, they're so excited.
37:20So imagine all this coming to a head towards the end of a week and the soap says, hey, this is our best and final answer and you need to tell us by end of day Thursday.
37:30My wife says, just take the deal. My agent said, just take the deal. I said, I'm not taking the deal.
37:34And Candy's like, you're crazy. Why wouldn't you just take the deal? I said, babe, I'm gonna do this campaign.
37:38She's like, but the campaign's not closed. And I'm like, but it's gonna be closed on Friday. And I said, if that deal doesn't close, then it's a sign I'm supposed to be a writer.
37:49So I'm gonna roll the dice. Thursday night, I call the guy who's negotiating the Brandon Entertainment campaign and say, hey, I'm getting ready to give a final answer to this soap opera.
37:59I need to just make sure all this is in place. And he says, I'm at the airport as we speak going to New York to sign the contract.
38:09I'll sign it Friday. I call everybody up. I say, I'm not doing the deal.
38:14Friday, crickets.
38:18Don't hear from this guy. Saturday, nothing.
38:22I'm blowing him up. No response. Everybody involved in a deal can't get to him.
38:27Sunday, he calls me. He's crying. He's literally sobbing on the phone.
38:32It turns out that someone from another country came in and said, oh, I don't know if this would work internationally as well as you guys think it would. Whatever they said made somebody nervous enough that they pulled the plug on the entire thing. Oh my god.
38:44Forfeited a $400,000 negotiation fee and killed the whole deal. I find that out on Sunday.
38:52So wake up Monday, you have no campaign, and you're being written off for the soap.
39:03You know, we have this this whole concept of the dark night of the soul on here, which is not my own concept, it's obviously a story phrase. And I genuinely, when I hear this, cannot help but think that this is like probably one of the darkest, I'm sure, dark night of the souls, especially
39:20as a parent. I cannot describe to you. I cannot describe to you.
39:25If you can imagine how deflated I was on that Monday, but I was still in my mind thinking, okay. Well, I'll just jump start. I'll get something going.
39:32Cut to three months later, it's not working. Cut to six months later, nothing's moving.
39:39You're off the soap at that point. Cut to a year later, You have not been working.
39:45Nothing you have done creatively has taken root. You have put your entire family into a situation that is untenable.
39:55And at this point now, I have three kids And I remember my wife got pregnant and it it there was a moment there where we're like, can we even have another kid?
40:07And for us, it was we're just gonna figure it out. But during that time period, a lot of us figuring it out was really her figuring it out. I had gone down into a hole.
40:20I was writing every day and I could write all the time every day. All I was doing is reading screenplay books and writing and trying to do it.
40:28But if you were looking from the outside, you're just seeing this guy with a wife and three kids and a fourth kid on the way and he's not doing a damn thing. And he's convinced himself that the only way he can save this family is if he has some big break. And it was to the point where my wife who had stopped working so she can take care of the family after we had our third kid, she had to go back to work just to put any little bit of money into the house.
40:52And I'm telling you, like, we had bought a house with the soap opera money and the, um, the house went into foreclosure, and I just couldn't believe that the chips had fallen like this.
41:05I felt like I'm a good person. I work hard. How could the chips have fallen like this?
41:10And I just poured sauce on feeling sorry for myself, but then I compounded it by blaming other people.
41:17What was the biggest fear you had at the time?
41:20How am I gonna feed my family? You know, I had dug a hole so deep that the amount it would take to pull them out, it felt like a Hail Mary.
41:30And I had convinced myself that incremental steps was not gonna be enough because for me, it's it's so tough because I grew up so poor. And by the age of 12, I decided I can't rely on anybody, and I started working.
41:45And I would have been heartbroken if I ever got to a point where I would not be providing for my family, and I would have kids who would be seeing me repeat a cycle. And then I remember one day when my wife, she went to work, and I was just sitting at my thing wearing the same clothes I'm always wearing at the typing.
42:08She came back early, and I looked back. I said, wait.
42:11What why are you home so early? And she dropped the coldest line I've ever heard.
42:18She said, you give up, I give up.
42:22And she had been telling me, you gotta do something, you gotta get a job, you gotta do whatever. And I kept going, it's not gonna matter. I'll never make enough to pull this out of this hole and I've gotta just sell a script or I gotta whatever.
42:33And then when she came in, she said, you give up, I give up. The hustle bone kicked back in because I have always been a grinder. I've always had multiple jobs.
42:41I've always because the way I grew up so poor, I never wanted to be in that situation. But for some reason, I just wasn't myself.
42:49But that day, literally the next day, I was like, I'll do anything.
42:53And I don't have tits, but naturally, that brings up questions of what will happen to my dreams when I do want to start our family.
43:02And what's interesting is I had this conversation with a friend who has two daughters and she has a business, and she was saying that if anything, having those kids has made her more ambitious. And I feel like that's the case for you, that in a lot of ways, having that family has saved you.
43:19Mhmm.
43:20Yeah. I mean, for me, I wasn't thinking about it.
43:24When we we had our first kid, I was 24. I had just gotten out of college. I got married at 21.
43:30I knew I wanted a family. In retrospect, yeah, they save you all the time. Imagine you come home from one of your worst days and your kid comes up and say, can you I remember, uh, one of my sons, I was so beaten one day and I was like feeling starved for myself and mad at the world.
43:57I walked in the door and one of my sons ran up with a piece of paper and a crayon asked me to draw him Spider Man.
44:08And I remember I was just like and then I go, okay. I have to change. I have to be something for this kid.
44:15I actually have to draw Spider Man and and I gotta try to do it decent enough because this kid, if you didn't do it good enough, he would make you do it again because he didn't want a color one that wasn't great. But on top of that, I had to have a different spirit. As they're growing up and you know they're looking at you, you start asking yourself, well, what do you want them to see?
44:32And I was the type of guy that would start a script and never finish it. And I said, I don't want my kids to grow up and see somebody who doesn't know how to finish.
44:42There's a whole bunch of things that I did that were just because I was like, I gotta be a certain type of example for them. The example that you needed Yeah.
44:50Back then. And then they will brighten your day. Kids and families help snap you out of that.
44:56For me, that's how it was. But you don't have to have a family in order for that to be done, but you do need folks around you who can help shift your perspective when you're at your worst. That was part of the fuel that helped me finish my first script.
45:10Didn't you also have to go back to temping at or at your legal? Oh my god. Where
45:16did he oh, no. Um, so I went back to temp at the same law firm that had thrown me a going away party.
45:28Like fifty, sixty people in a big conference room saying congratulations, you're on your way to Young and the Restless. And now I'm going back with my tail between my legs and the same people are there and they are rooting for me but they're feeling so sorry for me and there's no way of getting that stink off.
45:45But that's what it took. And then this guy who used to be starring on a soap opera was now a PA for a promo house.
45:53And the best thing about it, they would let you work as much overtime as you wanted. So I was working all day and seven days a week, and I was pulling myself out of the hole literally financially,
46:06and that began the climb back. And so we have a new hope here where, uh, someone asks you, do you have a spec?
46:14I cannot believe the stories you have uncovered. One of the things I had written was a feature version of Quest to Ref. That that feature ended up selling, and that helped us get out of debt, but we still got a ways to go.
46:27And now there's four kids, and we are a big family. And, um, then I have also written a, uh, a script.
46:35I've written an original TV pilot. It doesn't sell, but it starts getting into people's hands and they all love it. And one day, an executive from Fox calls.
46:44He said, I wanna put you up for a show, but one script is not enough because, you know, you gotta make sure you're not a fluke. And he says, uh, do you have a spec? And I said, of course.
46:54And I leave the meeting, and I call my rep, and I say, what's a spec? I did not know what a spec script was in the world of TV.
47:04What is a spec script for those who don't know? These aren't as common nowadays, but, um, a spec script is your original idea for an existing series.
47:14In the business, it used to be really crucial because people wanted to know you could write for somebody else's show. Right. I didn't know what it was and I hadn't written one.
47:21So they told me what it was and I wrote a spec script in a week. I sent that to the guy and he put me up for a show called Burn Notice and that's how I got staffed. Can you walk me through your time in Burn Notice and how you even climbed up because you just started off with a nine week deal.
47:34Right? Yeah. I told my agent I have four kids.
47:37I'm gonna be there the whole time and I am getting the script. And I didn't know what that would entail. I just showed up.
47:42And it turns out that the way to do that was to make myself indispensable to the showrunner. That started off with, I'm in the Writer's Room, and the showrunners comes from a call with the network, and he says, the network wants the overview of the season. And he says, I'm gonna need somebody to write it.
47:56And then normally, now that I'm a showrunner, I know normally you would give that to your number two or another higher level writer with experience and nobody said anything. I'm sitting there and I don't know what made me do it, but I just put my hand up and I said, hey, what if I take a run at it? He said, okay.
48:13And I did that and that saved him time and I saw that relief and I said, I'm stepping into every gap and anytime you see somebody hesitate, that's a gap. Step into it.
48:24So now I'm I'm I'm signing up to write any way, shape, or form all day every day. If I hear something, I'll hey, I'll draft that. Sometimes I'm not even waiting for him to ask.
48:34He'll say, oh, I gotta talk to someone. I So will draft an email, send it to him, and then he can just cut and paste. And by the way, I wasn't supposed to stay on.
48:41They extended me for the whole season, but I was just doing it all. And then one day, he walks in my office and he says, hey, how would you feel about writing an episode with me? And he says, one of the EPs who had been using me to write scenes for half the season not not getting me credit for anything, and I remember being mad at this EP, like, can't believe I'm doing all this for him.
48:59They're talking about they love this scene, and he won't even say that was bent. Then when I got the script, he said, this producer has said I deserve a script. So I got it.
49:08Now I'm a staff writer and I just start coming up through the ranks. By the end of seven seasons, I'm executive producer. And I want to have control over my own destiny when I leave Burn Notice.
49:19So I know that means I have to have my own projects and I start developing a little bit during that run. How did you manage to balance the day job while writing other scripts? I would come into burn notice early.
49:29I might write all my stuff from 06:30 to 08:30 and then it's burn notice from nine to six. And then I went in, talked to my agents and I said I got three ideas. Two of them they liked.
49:40I sold both pitches and the third one, that one's crazy like that'll never sell. And I said, okay, I'll write that one. And so I wrote the script for Hand of God.
49:49Next thing you know, have these all star list of directors who are interested. All star list of actors who are interested to go around town saying, hey, we wanna make this show. So that being said, we obviously have a very important component to the story which is Cross.
50:02Mhmm. Which is currently number one show on Amazon Prime and
50:07I am curious, how did Alex come into your life? In this case, I had written a pilot,
50:12uh, for, uh, an executive a few years earlier and he loved the pilot and loved working with me. They didn't do anything with that show.
50:20Three, four years later, he's reaching out saying, hey, how would you feel about adapting Alex Cross? And, uh, my first answer was like, I'd no.
50:29I'm only working on my own stuff or I'll work on something that's green lit. And so I felt that was the end of the conversation, and then about a month later, he calls back. The next thing you know, I find myself in a meeting at Amazon with their biggest executives, and they're saying, hey.
50:44We want you to do it, and we are going to make it. And so, uh, I signed on, and I had a meeting with everyone.
50:53I told them what I thought this show needed to be. Jim Patterson is there. Paramount's there.
50:59Skydance is there before this was before any type of merger. Amazon's there. And just say, listen.
51:04This is a huge IP thing, worldwide bestseller. I have a specific way I wanna do it. I want you to buy into that.
51:10If I'm the one doing it, I need you to buy into that. Court Jim Patterson, love it.
51:15So they signed off, and then I started down the road of writing a pilot for them. And then they say, okay.
51:21Well, can we get a sense of what the season would be? And I put together an overview, characters, storylines, music, themes,
51:30everything. And so for those who are interested, we're gonna be attaching, thank you so much, a series overview.
51:36Yep. And it's actually very similar to a pitch document. Oh, thank you so much for that.
51:40So then shared that with everyone. They've they've fell in love with it. I don't tell a lot of people this story, but the truth is they actually passed on it.
51:47Some politics started coming into play after they had promised me they were gonna make this show. And after they had fallen in love with the pilot and the overview, they said we're not making it.
51:58And I won't bother you with everything that happened in between them passing on it and then changing their minds, but just know there was a moment where Alex Cross, the series,
52:09got passed on even though everyone loved it. As we close, it was recently announced that you guys have already shot, I believe, but you would be creating a series called The Greatest, which is, uh, based on the life of Muhammad Ali. Mhmm.
52:20And I know that he is a personal hero of yours. Yeah. What did that mean for you?
52:25Terrifying.
52:27In fact, I stayed away from it the first few times, so it was put in front of me. And it's funny because I tell everyone, do the thing that scares you.
52:38You don't wanna pull back. You actually wanna go in there because that is the truth. And the reason I was scared is because you're gonna potentially write a story about millions of people's heroes.
52:48So that's an intense responsibility and I was afraid of it. But then I figured that's the reason I gotta do it.
52:56And it turned into one of the most, if not the most rewarding experiences of my career. Wow.
53:03And it just kept unfolding in the most beautiful way, I cannot wait for people to watch this show. It is amazing what we were able to accomplish.
53:14I I have goosebumps hearing you talk about it because it really is just the light in your eyes is it really just seems like a dream come true. And as someone who is on the other end of having accomplished a very beautiful dream, is there anything you would like to tell someone who is going through it right now and what would your closing remarks be to them?
53:33Persistence pays off
53:35no matter what. Focus on the goal, not the path. Because if you let yourself be sidetracked by things you think are the missteps, then you'll lose sight of the fact that everything is a step in the right direction.
53:47I don't want folks to think that they're wrong. Like, it really is tough right now, and it might be tougher than it's ever been. But I would remind them, there has never been a time where someone said, oh, hey.
53:59That's the easy way. It's always been the hard way. Mhmm.
54:02And it might be particularly hard right now, but you already signed up for hard. I admire that. I applaud that.
54:09I think it's courageous. And if you can just remind yourself of why you signed up for that, it may help you stay the course.
54:17Ben, thank you so much. I kept telling the team that I was not gonna get emotional on this one, but I think I might, I'm so sorry. Um, thank you so much, and I mean that in many different ways because we're here talking about the anatomy of a dream.
54:31And you for those who don't know sorry.
54:42You were my yes. The reason I was calling is to see what your availability is like in July.
54:49My availability is completely open.
54:53Oh, great. We'd love to offer you an episode of season two of Cross.
54:58No way.
55:00Yeah. Totally. We got it, Jules.
55:06We're going.
55:10And hearing your story about how it all came together and the guesses that you got along the way, you're one of those people that has continued to pay it forward, and it's very inspirational.
55:24So I just wanna say that you accomplishing your dream, I really just want you to know that it's allowed other people, so many people. And I saw it on set. I saw it on set how many people's lives were changed because you accomplished your dream.
55:40And so for that, I'm truly truly so humbled for this experience and I just thank you so much. And I know the people that have listened to this story are better for it.
55:49Thank you. I I know you know I've said this to you. It has been an honor
55:55to be part of your journey. I know that we cross paths for very specific reasons and, um, it's so important to me to be working with like minded people. And you just said something that I hadn't really thought about before, but being able to change people's lives as a byproduct of chasing your own dream is huge.
56:17That is what a force multiplier is, and I consider you a force multiplier.
56:22Thank you. Thank you so much.
56:25Alright, guys. You know the drill. We're gonna be diving into the anatomy of Ben's dream.
56:29We're gonna be going over the principles that came up in his journey. And because there are so many, we're gonna be putting up a list of all of them, and we're just gonna be touching on the few that we find most important. Alright?
56:40Let's dive in. The first principle was understand your audience.
56:45And this means going beyond knowing who your customer is to understanding why they do what they do, their psychology. What are they chasing? What are they afraid of?
56:55And what are they trying to become? Ben is one of the best examples that we have seen on this show because he doesn't just make content and hope that it lands.
57:05He is really obsessing over who he is making it for. And I think the best way to get there is to study them the way a filmmaker studies a character. Now before a screenwriter writes a single scene, before they figure out the plot or the structure or any of that, they have to know their character inside and out.
57:24They need to figure out what is their want, what is their need, who is their nemesis, and what is standing in their way. Now many times, I will write pages and pages of backstory of this character's childhood, their upbringing, their relationships that shape them.
57:40The deeper that you actually take to understand a person, the clearer it becomes what they actually need from you in that moment so that you can make sure that you are catering your message to that. And honestly, one of the best tools that I have found for doing that came from film school, and that is the save the cat beat sheet.
57:59You can see in this book. I'm not even kidding. This is like holy grail in film school.
58:04I'm gonna pop it up on the screen. Basically, what this maps out is an emotional journey of a character. Your customer is on this exact journey right now.
58:12They are the hero in their own story. And so the question you need to ask yourself is, where are they when they find you? Are you a GoDaddy?
58:20Or your customer is at the very beginning, right after their lock in, and they've decided to go all in on their dream and get a domain name? Or are you creating content for the entrepreneur who is on the cusp of giving up, who is in their dark night of the soul right now, who just needs a video to remind them that it's not over.
58:37Because if you know where your customer is in their story, you know exactly what to say to them. Now if you're thinking, what if my product and content serves people at every stage?
58:47Well, even if your product technically serves everyone, your marketing should speak to one person at one moment in their journey because that's who's actually buying. What we have found most effective is to make different ads with different messaging speaking to those people individually as opposed to trying to speak to all of them at once.
59:04So ask yourself this. Number one, what is your customer's want, need, nemesis, and dream? Write it out like you would a character in a story.
59:12Number two, where is your customer in their story when they find you? And number three is what you're putting out there speaking directly to that moment.
59:21Oh, and by the way, down below in the description, we've included a downloadable worksheet where you can go through all these questions yourself and hopefully start putting these principles into action. Alright.
59:30Moving on to our next principle, which is the art of attention. This principle is mastering the psychology of what makes people stop scrolling, what makes them pay attention, and want to know more.
59:41Mastering attention means understanding how to deliberately make people stop and look.
59:47Now Ben said this perfectly. Humans are designed to predict patterns. We are flowing through our algorithm, seeing the same things over and over.
59:58And the easiest way to make someone
1:00:00Stop is to just simply break the pattern.
1:00:05And it makes sense why Ben calls attention the very first pillar of how to tell a great story. Because if you can't get someone to stop, nothing matters. And I wanna dive into what he taught us and talk about exactly how we can use it to improve the performance of our content.
1:00:20Alright. The first way to hook someone in is surprise.
1:00:24And when we think of surprise, we usually picture something like a mister beast video with, like, some insane visual, but that's not the only way to surprise someone in a hook. Now one of the easiest ways to create surprise is with a contrarian truth, which is essentially saying the opposite of what people expect to hear.
1:00:44The thing that makes someone go, wait. What? Because it goes against what they assumed was true.
1:00:49I cannot take credit for this. I think the first time that I heard this was, like, in a Callaway video, and I wanna go over an example that we saw on our own channel. Roll the tape.
1:01:00When you think viral, you think a million or 2,000,000 or 3,000,000. For us, it was 60, and that's seven x our revenue. Now the reason I think it overall worked is because Natalie said, when you think viral, you think this.
1:01:11But it was this that's seven x my revenue. 60,000 views to seven x her revenue, like, that's crazy.
1:01:18That feels attainable, and it goes against the notion that you need to have all of these millions of views in order to change your entire business. So it was a contrarian truth that overall worked. Of course, surprise isn't just come from what you say.
1:01:32It can also come from what people see. It can come through some sort of visual hook or auditory hook. Now every example that we have on the screen has one thing in common.
1:01:39It breaks the pattern. And the more it interrupts what people expected to see, the more likely they are to stop scrolling. Now number two of how to hook someone in that Ben spoke about was emotion.
1:01:50So do how you do that in just a few seconds? I wanna show you one of the first shorts that went viral for us. If you're checked into a teaching hospital
1:01:57on the dates of a national cardiology convention when, like, the most esteemed specialists are away, you're actually less likely to die. And the researchers concluded that's because these specialists had gotten so used to doing certain procedures over and over and over and over that they would keep doing them even if they weren't the right solution to the problem or if new data showed they didn't work or were harmful.
1:02:17So is this what psychologists call the Einstein lung effect, where you've solved a problem a certain way so many times that you'll keep solving
1:02:24problems that way even if the problem has changed or your tool is shown not to work. For the longest time, we couldn't figure out why this video took off. And when the video popped off, the first thing our team member said was, yeah.
1:02:36People are fighting in the comments. Some people were saying it wasn't true. Others were saying it absolutely was.
1:02:42And there were hundreds of people debating each other. It struck a nerve. It made people feel frustrated, and it made people want to jump into the conversation.
1:02:50And that's what Ben is talking about. Tell me this is not all over the algorithm. How many times are you scrolling, and do you come across something that makes you laugh?
1:02:58Or you see a podcast clip talking about potential war, and then you feel fear. If a clip can make someone feel something in those first few seconds, you are in. They have your attention.
1:03:08So ask yourself this. If this video takes off, what are people gonna write in the comments? If you can already imagine people saying, this is so true.
1:03:16I completely disagree. This made me cry. Chances are you are on the right track.
1:03:22Now there is one more way Ben spoke about on how to get attention, and that was to call them by their name. This one honestly blew my mind a little because I realized I had been seeing this for years.
1:03:32I had just never put a name to it. No pun intended. Now the most obvious examples are things like, have you ever do you ever feel like if you've been struggling with videos, you know what I'm talking about, those hoax are literally calling someone out.
1:03:44But while adding the you helps for sure, it's what follows it that is most important. So let's say the sentence is, if you've been struggling with getting your views past 200 views, this is the one small tweak that you can make.
1:03:56Now if you had that experience, you immediately feel like they're talking directly to you. It's not actually about saying their name. It's about describing someone's thoughts or fears or frustrations, their dreams or experiences so accurately that they immediately recognize themselves in what you're saying or you're showing.
1:04:13Now if you're doing educational content of any sort for your personal brand or business, my advice is to get to the value as soon as possible right after you call them by their name while still leaving room for open loops, which we will talk about in a second. See what I did there?
1:04:32When we actually look at the most successful content online, we realize that the best performing hooks almost always did all the three things that Ben mentioned. They surprised people. They made people feel something.
1:04:44And by the end of the hook, people knew that they were talking to them and solving a problem that they had. Now, obviously, these are just a few ways. There are, of course, so many other ways to capture attention for hooks other than this, but these are very, very effective.
1:04:57But before you go and start applying all of this, none of these really matter without something else that Ben spoke about. And it was the fourth pillar in what makes a good story, and that is to leave them wanting more. That doesn't just apply to cliffhangers or like what you put at the end of a story.
1:05:14It also applies to our hooks, and that's probably what you've heard referred to as a curiosity gap, which is basically the space between what someone knows and what they desperately wanna know. You need to create just enough unanswered questions that their brain wants to close the loop. Because as human beings, we hate open loops.
1:05:32It can be as dumb as how is this person gonna react to that prank? Or if it's educational content, how is she going to tell me to solve the problem that I have? So the stronger the gap that you can create with your surprise hook, your emotional hook, or the call them by your name hook, the more likely you don't just get their attention, but you get them to watch till the end.
1:05:49So think about your next piece of content and ask yourself, what is one way that I could start my next video where my hook surprises them, makes them feel something, or calls them by their name? Number two, what kind of hook is most likely to attract the right audience?
1:06:05Number three, does my hook create a question my audience needs answered? And I know that we spoke a lot about short form content, but this really does apply to long form content, to your pitch, to literally any type of story that you were telling.
1:06:18All these same principles apply. Alright. Moving on to our next principle, to become a master storyteller.
1:06:24This was exactly what it sounds like. It's the skill of turning what you do into a story that people remember and believe and act on.
1:06:31Now I think it's safe to say that Ben's dream would not have been possible without this one principle. And here's the thing. When I look back at every single guest that we have had on this show, the through line isn't just that they were these, like, talented and very smart entrepreneurs, which they were.
1:06:48They were also excellent at telling their story. So I wanna spend some real time on this one because Ben made so many points in this interview that I think deserve to go deeper.
1:06:59More importantly, I want to actually help us apply this to our brand and our content and our pitches so that we actually see results. But before I do any of that, I wanna point to the questions that Ben said we need to answer before diving into any story, and that was, what are you trying to say? Why are you saying this?
1:07:17Who is this for? And what are you promising the audience? This is gonna give us the clarity that we actually need to tell any story.
1:07:25Once we've answered those questions, I actually wanna break down Ben's storytelling principles into the three different areas that we would use them, and that is for your brand, for your pitch, and for your content. Let's start with brand.
1:07:37And we all know that brand is about associations. But, really, the question is, what stories does your audience associate you with?
1:07:45Ben brought up Taylor Swift. And think about it. Taylor Swift is built on stories.
1:07:49We don't just associate her with music. We associate her with love stories, with relationships, friendship bracelets that she's sung about.
1:07:55Think about Alex Warren. He was a TikTok musician that literally blew up, and he got nominated for a Grammy. He tells stories about grief and losing his parents.
1:08:05I mean, entire tour is called Little Orphan Alex. The association isn't the song or his music.
1:08:11It's the story underneath the music. And as a result, he's brought a community together of people who not only like his songs, but they resonate with what he sings about. Community isn't built around just liking the beat of a song.
1:08:25The strongest artists and brands are built around the story. And I know that this might be oversimplifying it, but your audience isn't showing up for a product.
1:08:35They're showing up for a world they want to be a part of. And that is exactly why everyone in the marketing space right now will not stop talking about world building. I know it sounds like this, like, big abstract buzzword, but honestly, the simplest way I found to understand this is to treat your brand like it's a film or a TV show.
1:08:52And if you want an example of how to do that, literally, like, look at Ben's pitch. It will show you how in the movie and TV world it's done. It has recurring characters that you grow attached to.
1:09:01Like, mister beast has friends and the rest of his crew that you see in his videos. They're not just random people in videos anymore. They're characters in a world that you've come to know and love.
1:09:09It has recurring sets. Think about diary with CEO. The lighting and the signature interview setup, you know exactly where you are within seconds.
1:09:17I mean, think about Friends. If I were to just show you the picture frame against a purple backdrop, you immediately know that it is Friends. Oh my god.
1:09:27Wait.
1:09:30That's crazy. Why would you do that? Why would you do that?
1:09:33And when we translate that to business, think about companies like Apple or IKEA. Literally, IKEA is its own world, and every single piece of content and marketing that they put out there is in alignment with that world. If you wanna learn more about this, Caleb Ralston, who's literally grown Gary Vee's brand and the Harmozi's brand, he actually has a great video about this.
1:09:56I recommend checking it out. So ask yourself, what stories do people associate to you? You're the person who speaks about who are the recurring characters in your content.
1:10:06And number three, what are the recurring locations, visuals, or formats people subconsciously recognize? Alright.
1:10:12Moving on to how to master telling stories for your pitches. Now for speaking or pitching, if you are up there telling a story out loud, what Ben said about knowing what to leave out is essential. And most times that you're gonna pitch, you're most likely gonna do an elevator pitch, and you only have a couple minutes to get your point across.
1:10:29If we can't get our story down to one clean sentence, it's usually a sign that we don't know the one thing that we want people to remember. I think something that we should all nail down before we speak to people is have our elevator pitch ready, but really come at it from a story lens so that you can elicit that emotion.
1:10:46One of the best tools for that, something that we do for films is create a logline. A logline in a film is one sentence. Who's the main character?
1:10:54What do they want? What's standing in their way? And for your business, the main character is obviously your customer.
1:10:59It's about them. What they want, what they're up against, and you are the thing that helps them get there. And what the best log lines land almost always comes down to the problem, the stakes.
1:11:09Because the pain point is the fastest way to spark that emotion. So ask yourself, what's the log line of your brand? If you only had thirty seconds to tell your brand story, what would you leave in?
1:11:18And could someone else tell your story after hearing it just once? Now if you really wanna dive into what makes a good logline, I would highly recommend going online and looking up all of your favorite films and what their loglines were. Save the Cat literally goes into how to create a really good logline for a film, but all the same principles apply to business.
1:11:38Moving on to how to master storytelling for your content. Ben laid out four pillars of what actually makes a good story.
1:11:47And we already spoke about attention, also known as the hook. And we spoke about leaving them wanting more. So let's dive into the one I think that most of us struggle with, which is make them feel something.
1:11:56Now earlier, we talked about emotion as a way to capture attention, but this is different. This is about keeping people emotionally invested from the beginning to the end. And so how do we actually do that?
1:12:05Well, the first way that Ben said was circumstance, which to me is another way of saying stakes or a problem.
1:12:11And here's why problems are essential. There is no story without problems, just like there are no businesses without problems.
1:12:20There would be no Uber Eats if people always had the time and the energy to cook dinner. There would be no Amazon if shopping in stores was the easiest and the quickest option. There would be no Zoom if it was easy to meet with your team in person.
1:12:33The problem is the engine. And the bigger the problem, the higher the stakes and the more we feel. So whether we're making a vlog or a short form video, we need to make the stakes incredibly clear.
1:12:45And ideally, we do it immediately after our hook. And for what I have found, generally, we can do that with a simple use of the word but.
1:12:54And here's what I mean. Roll the tape. We did it.
1:12:57We're finally in Costco. But now, we're gonna need your help to stay here. So we're visually hooked in by it by a bit of a surprise hook.
1:13:05I mean, they're literally standing in the snow screaming, we did it in front of a Costco. And then she immediately follows it with, but we're now gonna need your help to stay there.
1:13:13That is immediate stakes. And notice what it does to us. It makes us lean in.
1:13:17It makes us wanna know why. The rest of the video is her explaining how they got there, the journey, and it ends up on a call to action to support the brand. Now that video has 2,000,000 views, and I really think it's mainly because the stakes were delivered and the circumstance was introduced.
1:13:32But Ben said story is the dance between circumstance and content, which is the next way to make someone feel something. What does he mean by content?
1:13:41The way I interpreted it was that it's the journey. What happens in the midst of that circumstance? And most relevant to us, how do you go about resolving the main tension in that circumstance?
1:13:54Now let's say you introduce one big but at the beginning of your hook. I wanted to start a business, but I had no money. That's the central tension.
1:14:01That's the question your audience is waiting to see answered. But then throughout the story, you introduce smaller buts that serve the main goal.
1:14:09This is actually something I learned in film school that literally every professor talked about. It comes from the creators of South Park, Trey and Matt. They said that great stories aren't just connected by and then.
1:14:20They're connected by but and therefore. So instead of I wanna start a business, and then I met an investor, and then I flew there, and then I pitched my idea, it becomes I wanna start a business, but I had no money.
1:14:33Therefore, a friend offered to introduce me to an investor, but they wanted to meet in person. Therefore, I maxed out my credit cards to fly there, but I missed my flight.
1:14:42Therefore, I rented a car, but I was late. Therefore, I only had sixty seconds to try and pitch my idea.
1:14:52Every but raises the stakes. Every obstacle makes you wonder, are they gonna pull this off? And I know it's a terrible story, but I'm just giving you an idea of what we mean here.
1:15:01Every obstacle should answer one question. Does this character get closer to their goal or farther away? If the answer is neither, it probably doesn't belong in the story.
1:15:10And the last way to make your audience feel something in your story is through developing a great character. And, obviously, since you're most likely telling your own story in your content, you are the character, which means you need to start thinking about yourself the same way that a screenwriter thinks about a protagonist.
1:15:25So what makes a good character? Well, there are many things, but here are just a few. They want something.
1:15:31Literally, every compelling character is pursuing a goal, and that's what gives the audience something to root for. And as a founder, that might be building a company or solving a problem, changing an industry, chasing a dream. Whatever it is, your audience should know what you're trying to accomplish.
1:15:46Number two, they have flaws that people can relate to. They have fears. They have doubts.
1:15:51They have blind spots. Most importantly, they have internal conflicts, and they have external obstacles. Your audience should be able to look at your story and think, I've felt that or I feel that.
1:16:00Those imperfections aren't something to hide because the goal really isn't to look perfect. It's to be human enough that someone sees a little bit of themselves in your journey. And lastly, another thing that makes a good character is a change because of their journey.
1:16:12The best characters, they don't finish the story as the same person that they were in the beginning. They learned something or they overcame something. Maybe it's they became a better leader or a founder or a person along the way.
1:16:23And guess what? If you share that, especially in your content, you teach people something, which remember is Ben's fourth pillar of a good story. So in summary, to improve your content, you need circumstance, aka the stakes, content, aka the journey, and characters, aka you.
1:16:40So ask yourself this. What's the main tension or stakes in your story? Two, does every moment you include move that tension forward?
1:16:49And number three, what part of you do people relate to most? Now I know that was a lot, but these are the kinds of exercises master storytellers are constantly doing.
1:17:00Ben's journey is filled with examples of just how important this skill was, not just in his writing, but literally throughout his career. But none of that would have happened if it weren't for our next principle, which is to start before you're ready, which means to move forward before the timing feels right, the money is there, or the plan is clear.
1:17:21Because momentum is what creates clarity, not the other way around. And in Ben's story, we saw this principle in action from the very beginning. When he got the so called general meeting, not only did he max out those two cards, but he went.
1:17:34He didn't wait for the perfect time or until the money was there, although I would not recommend going into debt at all. But the point is, he went. Even though was a general meeting, him flying there is what led that casting director to giving him an audition, which guess what?
1:17:48He wasn't ready for. And it didn't stop there. When that executive asked Ben if he had that spec script, Ben's answer was yes, even though he didn't even know what a spec script was.
1:17:58And he wrote one in a week. He was pursuing acting while raising a family and working a job. He never once waited for the moment to feel right.
1:18:06And I just want us to really acknowledge that because so many of the most successful people we've studied on this show, they weren't starting in the best of circumstances. They literally were starting in some of the hardest.
1:18:17Now let's be real. How many of us are hiding behind the excuse of saying, we need to do more research, we need more time to learn, or that it's just not the right time right now? I literally do it all the time.
1:18:28I literally put off reaching out to Ben for almost a full year because I felt I wasn't ready. Then I noticed this exact principle in Grace Andrew's story, and it made me realize I was the only thing standing in my own way. And so I finally set the message, and here we are.
1:18:42Now I'm not saying to be reckless in everything that you do, but the pattern we keep seeing is that successful people say yes, and then they figure it out later. Does that sometimes bite them in the ass? Yes.
1:18:52But so does waiting. So if you're sitting on something right now where you're waiting for the perfect moment or you're waiting to feel ready, the moment is not coming. And the longer that we wait, the further away it gets.
1:19:04So do one thing this week to move it forward. And for me, I'm gonna declare it here. I have been putting off another email for a dream guest of mine, and once and for all, I am going to get it done this week.
1:19:16So let's do it together. Alright. Moving on to our next principle, which is proximity.
1:19:22This is the intentional act of placing yourself in environments and around people who elevate your thinking, accelerate your pace, and expand opportunity in what you believe is possible. We've talked about this principle on this show before, and every single time that it comes up, it looks a little different.
1:19:37But the core is the same. Your environment shapes your outcomes. And in Ben's case, he moved to LA.
1:19:43Now, obviously, moving to LA doesn't guarantee success. But for him or anyone in that field, it does dramatically increase your chances of meeting the right people and finding the right opportunities. I mean, you grab coffee and the person in front of you is literally a producer.
1:19:56Your neighbor works at Netflix, or you end up in a dinner party where someone has a project that you would be perfect for. Nothing changes, but your surface area for opportunity definitely does.
1:20:04Well, yes, if you are in a position where moving is even slightly an option for you, I think it can be one of the best investments that you'll make in your future. But for many of us, that's simply not realistic. And that's why I asked Ben whether in today's world, moving to a city with more opportunity is even necessary.
1:20:19And while Ben's answer was no, he was quick to point out that we do have to make significant steps that declare our intentions. That could be flying to a conference or joining some sort of, like, mastermind club or simply getting in the right rooms even if it's virtual.
1:20:35Ultimately, it's creating proximity to the people and the opportunities that we are chasing. We spend so much time trying to change ourselves, but almost no time changing the environment that would naturally force us to change.
1:20:49So ask yourself this. Are your environments expanding what you believe is possible, or are they keeping you comfortable?
1:20:55Number two, what is one thing that you could do this week to put yourself in proximity of more opportunity or the right people?
1:21:02Moving on to our next principle, which is to find your allies. Your allies are the people in your life who support you. They believe in you and stand by your side as you chase your dream.
1:21:13And allies, honestly, they come in so many different forms. Sometimes there are family members. Sometimes there are friends.
1:21:22Sometimes there are colleagues. Sometimes there are partners.
1:21:26What we see time and time again in the anatomy of every single dream that we study is this. The bigger the dream, the stronger the allies who are there to support it.
1:21:35I mean, going back to story, no hero ever does it alone. There's always a mentor or some sort of coach or confidant or sidekick or best friend that helps the character when they lose their way or need support. And with Ben, it started with a director who was also a mentor of his, who spoke to a casting director in New York on Ben's behalf.
1:21:55That's it. That one conversation from someone who believed in him enough to make a call is what opened the door that changed everything. But the ally that we keep coming back to in Ben's story is Ben's wife, Candy.
1:22:07You know, they say that who you marry is the most important business decision that you'll ever make.
1:22:13Ben and Candy's story is one of my favorite examples that I've seen of that. She believed in him before anyone else did. She went with him to LA for him to pursue his dream.
1:22:23When the second year in LA went quiet for him, when everything was literally pointing to it being time to pack up and go back home, it was his wife that encouraged Ben to make that short film that really took his career to that next level. And then when everything fell apart, and the campaign fell through, and the soap let him go, and their house went into foreclosure, it was his wife that stepped up just to keep the family afloat while he found his way back.
1:22:44Ultimately, she was the one who woke him up. And as you saw when Ben spoke about his dream, his wife was all over it. And I'll be honest, I would not be here without mine.
1:22:55The person literally sitting on the other side of that camera giggling, my husband Roy, who has believed in this show in the moments that I didn't, and who continues to show up every single day for this dream. When I got to direct that episode of Cross, he came with me to Toronto. I have taken chances that I would have never taken in my life if it weren't for him and the allies that I have around me.
1:23:16But I know not everyone has a candy or a Roy in their corner. Trust me. I know what that's like.
1:23:23And if that's you, I want you to hear this. Recruit your allies the way that you recruit your team. These people, even if they don't directly work within your company or your dream, they will have as much influence as those who are.
1:23:35And while right now, it might not feel that way, I wanna remind you that your allies are out there, but finding them starts with doing something most of us don't wanna do, and that's cutting out the ones who aren't. The people who make you question your ambition, the people who make you feel selfish for betting on yourself, the people who confuse protecting you with honestly limiting you.
1:23:54An ally should give you strength. They do not make you shrink because the longer those people stay in your life, the harder it's going to get. And thanks to Kandi, she had Ben take the risks he would have never taken by creating that short film, which was a huge turning point in his career.
1:24:11Which brings us to our next principle, which is to create undeniable proof, which is turning results into something that's impossible to ignore. Now when Kenny suggested Ben make that short film, it didn't just become something to remember LA by. Without even knowing it, the film became this form of undeniable proof.
1:24:28It won festivals, and it's what ultimately got him cast on The Young and the Restless. On this channel, we talk a lot about how to attract investors or strategic partners how to get attention of, like, big people who can help greenlight and get you to the next stage of your dream.
1:24:41And what we've seen is that the most successful people, they do not wait for that person to greenlight them. They greenlight themselves first until they create enough proof so that they become impossible to ignore. For example, for Natalie Barbu, the CEO of RELA, that meant building an app before she got an investor and getting 10,000 users first.
1:24:59For Rihanna, it meant doing a bunch of successful collaboration deals with various brands, showing the demand for her products before she ultimately got a partnership with LVMH to make Fenty.
1:25:11I have personally seen firsthand how essential this principle is, especially when you're starting out. My thesis film at USC, Welcome Back, wasn't just a film I made to graduate.
1:25:21I made it very intentionally because I knew that I wanted to direct TV shows that had a thriller and action component to them. So every single scene and every decision and every shot that I made, I had that in mind. I remember thinking about an executive who might one day watch it and not wanting them to have to imagine whether I could pull it off.
1:25:41I wanted them to see it. That's ultimately what led me to meeting Ben, who gave me my first shot at TV and my episode on Cross. And that's really what undeniable proof is.
1:25:51It's removing the imagination gap, the space between what someone has to picture and what they can actually see. And the smaller the gap, the harder it is to say no. Because here's the truth.
1:26:02Nobody wants to take a risk on something they have to imagine. They want to see it working before they put their money and their time and their reputation behind it. And the only way to give them that certainty is to create the proof first.
1:26:15So don't wait for someone to greenlight you. Be your first yes. Create the proof first because the opportunity follows the proof, not the other way around.
1:26:24So ask yourself this. Would your dream client or partner look at your work and feel completely certain that you could deliver? Number two, what numbers, results, or examples you already have that you're not using?
1:26:35Number three, what proof do you still need to build that would make the right person say yes without hesitation? Which brings us to our next principle, and that is excellence as a value. Now excellence as a value means that you do more than the standard.
1:26:47You care about the details that no one else will see, and it's not because you have to. It's because it matters to you. And in Ben's dream, we see this time and time again.
1:26:57You might remember him talking about how he got Bernois, and he only had a nine week deal. He knew that he needed to extend it because of his circumstance.
1:27:06Right? So he talked about making himself indispensable. He showed up to that writer's room, and he looked for every opportunity to step up.
1:27:14When So the showrunner needed someone to, like, write that season overview, and it was like a task that normally would go to another person on the team, Ben raised his hand. He did not wait to be asked. He was drafting emails literally before anyone asked him to do it, and he was writing scenes without getting credit for He just stepped in and went above and beyond what was expected.
1:27:33And doing that didn't just lock in his job for the rest of the season. It launched his entire career as a writer in Hollywood. And throughout Ben's story, you can see that excellence wasn't just something that he demanded of himself.
1:27:46He knew that for it to really matter, everyone around him had to carry it too. And I saw firsthand how that value was upheld on the set of Cross, and the most successful people operate this way. Steve Jobs insisted that the circuit board inside the Macintosh be laid out beautifully even though nobody would see it because the standard doesn't change based on who's watching.
1:28:06It's what happens behind the scenes. Upholding excellence as a value in whatever team that you are building, even if it's just yourself, is truly one of the most important essential ways to stand out in any business. And I think that's what excellence really is.
1:28:23It's the standard you choose for yourself long before anyone asks for it. So ask yourself, what does this standard look like in your industry right now?
1:28:32Where could you raise the bar and go above and beyond? Number two, what are the nonnegotiable values of excellence for you? The things that if someone around you didn't care about them, they would not belong on your team.
1:28:42And number three, if someone experienced your brand today, what would people say you're committed to doing exceptionally well? Which brings us to our next principle, mindset.
1:28:52And I'm not gonna lie. This principle always feels beyond cheesy to me.
1:28:57But every time I look at our guests, I cannot find one, not one of them, where mindset didn't come first.
1:29:07They had to come first before they started, before they were ready, before they put themselves in proximity to opportunity. They had to believe in some capacity that they were capable, that if they really gave it their all, they could influence the outcome through their actions. And in Ben's story, if you looked at his life as scenes, it's in every scene.
1:29:25From a really young age, he decided that his circumstances weren't gonna write the rest of his story. He was.
1:29:31And that's the mindset that took him to New York, made him jump into that audition, moved him to LA, made him make that short film. His mindset literally led him to every opportunity that he had.
1:29:42And by the way, by mindset, I don't mean this perfect, I have no doubts, confidence, BS. Nobody has that.
1:29:51Nobody is immune to doubt. Ben himself had a whole year of a mindset where he himself said that he didn't think anything he did was gonna get him out of the hole that they were in, where he gave up until his wife snapped him out of it. And lately in this channel, in the anatomy of my own dream, man, am I trying to do the same.
1:30:07And if you've seen our previous episodes, I shared that I've been struggling with my own mindset lately because of, you know, how much it costs to make these episodes.
1:30:17The good news is since our last video, we signed with some sponsors, which is super exciting. But we recently had a meeting, and for the first time, we had enough information to actually calculate what it would cost to scale this thing, to fully build out the team so that Roy and I aren't pulling all these all nighters all the time.
1:30:37And so we crunched literally, like, every single role that we do and how much time that it takes. And when we saw the real numbers, honestly, it kinda crushed me.
1:30:50And suddenly, now I'm like, we're never gonna get out of this hole. The hole that is all of this investment that we've made so far, my massive student debt, which is a whole other story, the fact that I still don't feel like I have the financial stability enough to start a family, or that even after building all of these successful businesses and directing a show on Amazon, that we've made decisions that put us in a position where we literally can't afford to stop.
1:31:17So it all just feels like one giant hole. A hole that I can't possibly imagine getting myself out of.
1:31:25But then we were sitting and editing Ben's interview, and I realized that I'm doing the same thing that he was doing.
1:31:34I'm believing a story in my head and forgot that I'm the one holding the pen. You know, Ben's life didn't change when he wrote his first spec script or when he became a writer on Burn Notice or when he wrote the pilot for his first show.
1:31:50It changed when he fixed his mindset and when he decided that he wasn't just a writer, he was the showrunner of his own damn story.
1:31:59He got to decide how his story went and so do we. And so if you feel right now that you are currently in a hole that you can't climb out of, remember who is holding the pen.
1:32:14So write your story. Write the next scene. Write the project that leads to your next big yes.
1:32:23Write the comeback that nobody saw coming. And while we may not get to choose some of the characters that enter our story or the plot twists that we face or the obstacles that stand in our way, we do get to write how we overcome them.
1:32:40So go write the best story the world has ever seen.
1:32:45Go write the anatomy of your dream.
1:32:53Alright, guys. I will see you in the next one.
The Hook

The bait, then the rug-pull.

The episode opens with a fast-cut teaser built from lines pulled out of the interview to come — Ben Watkins on emotion beating logic, on names being the most powerful word in the universe, on stealing his own line back from himself mid-sentence. It's followed almost immediately by the story he's most guarded about: turning down a soap opera renewal for a brand deal that collapsed in 48 hours, then losing the house that came with it.

Frameworks

Named ideas worth stealing.

05:55list

The 4 Pillars of a Good Story

  1. Get their attention
  2. Make them feel something
  3. Teach them something
  4. Leave them wanting more

Ben's core framework for what makes any story — a pitch, a piece of content, a scene — work.

Steal forstructuring any hook, pitch opening, or piece of long-form content
06:03list

The 3 Ways to Get Attention

  1. Surprise (break the pattern)
  2. Emotion
  3. Call them by their name (describe their exact situation)

Sub-framework under Pillar 1, expanded further in the host's solo breakdown with the 'contrarian truth' technique.

Steal forwriting the first 3 seconds of a short-form hook
01:30list

Principles of Messaging

  1. What are you trying to say?
  2. Why are you saying this?
  3. Who is this for?
  4. What are you promising the audience?

Ben's starting checklist before telling any story, giving him a 'North Star' for decisions within it.

Steal forclarifying a pitch or content piece before writing it
08:28list

The 3 C's of Making Someone Feel Something

  1. Content
  2. Character
  3. Circumstance

Ben's model for Pillar 2, using Titanic as the example: two characters you care about (character), professing love (content), while the ship sinks (circumstance).

Steal fordiagnosing why a piece of content isn't landing emotionally
1:10:00concept

"But" and "Therefore," Not "And Then"

A structure borrowed from South Park's writers: stories built from escalating obstacles connected by 'but' and 'therefore' create rising stakes; 'and then' chains are flat and forgettable.

Steal foroutlining a founder story or brand narrative with real stakes
1:15:00list

What Makes a Good Character

  1. They want something
  2. They have relatable flaws
  3. They change because of the journey

Applied to personal-brand content: since you're the character in your own story, these three tests apply to how you present yourself.

Steal forbuilding a personal brand narrative arc
57:30concept

Save the Cat Beat Sheet

A screenwriting beat-sheet book the host holds up on camera, repurposed as a tool for mapping a customer's emotional journey and finding where they are in their story when they find your brand.

Steal forcustomer-journey mapping for marketing
56:22list

Anatomy of a Dream: 9 Principles

  1. Understand your audience
  2. The art of attention
  3. Become a master storyteller
  4. Start before you're ready
  5. Proximity
  6. Find your allies
  7. Create undeniable proof
  8. Excellence as a value
  9. Mindset: you hold the pen

The host's own distillation framework, applied to Ben's full story in the second half of the episode.

Steal forstructuring a long-form breakdown of any guest's journey into a teachable list
CTA Breakdown

How they asked for the click.

VERBAL ASK
01:45link
“Get the worksheet + all bonus resources from this episode”

Dropped early (also linked in the description), then reinforced structurally — every one of the 9 principles in the back half ends with 2-3 'ask yourself' questions the worksheet is built around. Final CTA doubles as a subscribe ask tied to the show's 'help one dream' submission format.

MENTIONED ON CAMERA
01:45linkEpisode worksheet + bonus resources ↗
01:45link"Deck That Sold Cross" — Ben's real series pitch document ↗
Storyboard

Visual structure at a glance.

cold open teaser
hookcold open teaser00:00
eBay experiment
promiseeBay experiment04:40
showrunner origin story
valueshowrunner origin story23:15
dark night of the soul
valuedark night of the soul39:38
Burn Notice breakthrough
valueBurn Notice breakthrough47:39
solo principles begin
valuesolo principles begin56:57
mindset / closing
ctamindset / closing1:28:20
Frame Gallery

Visual moments.

cold open teaser00:00Frame at 01:10 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells01:10Frame at 02:44 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells02:44Frame at 03:30 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells03:30eBay experiment04:40Frame at 05:49 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells05:49
cold open teaser00:00Frame at 01:10 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells01:10Frame at 02:44 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells02:44Frame at 03:30 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells03:30eBay experiment04:40Frame at 05:49 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells05:49Frame at 07:07 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells07:07Frame at 08:13 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells08:13Frame at 09:26 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells09:26Frame at 10:28 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells10:28Frame at 11:43 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells11:43Frame at 12:53 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells12:53Frame at 13:57 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells13:57Frame at 15:06 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells15:06Frame at 16:32 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells16:32Frame at 17:40 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells17:40Frame at 18:38 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells18:38Frame at 19:52 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells19:52Frame at 20:57 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells20:57Frame at 22:06 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells22:06showrunner origin story23:15Frame at 24:25 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells24:25Frame at 25:34 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells25:34Frame at 26:50 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells26:50Frame at 27:56 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells27:56Frame at 29:05 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells29:05Frame at 30:30 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells30:30Frame at 31:23 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells31:23Frame at 32:33 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells32:33Frame at 33:43 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells33:43Frame at 35:02 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells35:02Frame at 36:08 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells36:08Frame at 37:23 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells37:23Frame at 38:21 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells38:21dark night of the soul39:38Frame at 40:41 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells40:41Frame at 41:57 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells41:57Frame at 43:01 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells43:01Frame at 44:18 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells44:18Frame at 45:20 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells45:20Frame at 46:36 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells46:36Burn Notice breakthrough47:39Frame at 48:59 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells48:59Frame at 50:02 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells50:02Frame at 51:15 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells51:15Frame at 52:19 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells52:19Frame at 53:32 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells53:32Frame at 54:40 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells54:40Frame at 55:49 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells55:49solo principles begin56:57Frame at 58:18 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells58:18Frame at 59:16 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells59:16Frame at 60:28 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells60:28Frame at 61:36 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells61:36Frame at 62:47 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells62:47Frame at 63:56 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells63:56Frame at 65:07 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells65:07Frame at 66:18 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells66:18Frame at 67:25 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells67:25Frame at 68:36 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells68:36Frame at 69:45 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells69:45Frame at 70:56 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells70:56Frame at 72:04 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells72:04Frame at 73:14 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells73:14Frame at 74:23 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells74:23Frame at 75:33 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells75:33Frame at 76:45 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells76:45Frame at 77:54 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells77:54Frame at 79:04 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells79:04Frame at 80:14 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells80:14Frame at 81:23 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells81:23Frame at 82:31 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells82:31Frame at 83:43 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells83:43Frame at 84:52 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells84:52Frame at 86:00 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells86:00Frame at 87:13 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells87:13mindset / closing88:20Frame at 89:31 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells89:31Frame at 90:42 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells90:42Frame at 91:50 from Ben Watkins: The Four Pillars of a Story That Sells91:50
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