Three agency strategists sit at a bare table for an hour and work through the actual frameworks they use to run other people's content: AI clone economics, market sophistication levels, and the KPI ladder that makes a creative director's value provable.
Posted
4 days ago
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Format
Interview
educational
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57 · 43
Big Idea
The argument in one line.
Nearly every content decision in this conversation, from using an AI clone to picking a KPI, comes down to reading how skeptical and saturated a specific market already is and matching the content's boldness to that, rather than copying what works for someone else.
Who This Is For
Read if. Skip if.
READ IF YOU ARE…
You run or work inside a content agency and manage strategy for other people's accounts, not just your own.
You're deciding whether AI avatar/voice clones are worth testing for a client who's slow or bad on camera.
You're a creator considering the move into creative direction and want to know what skill actually changes.
You need a KPI you can defend to a client month over month, especially before revenue is attributable to content.
SKIP IF…
You want a filming or editing tutorial — this is a strategy conversation with zero production how-to.
You want one clean actionable hook or script; this is a wide-ranging framework discussion, not a single tactic.
TL;DR
The full version, fast.
A three-person agency team works through the live frameworks behind their content strategy: AI avatar clones now cost $5-10 a video and fool viewers, but only work on naturally monotone talent, not expressive creators. Every other decision, claim intensity, tier-ranking angles, whether to show-don't-tell, traces back to a market's sophistication level (1 through 5) and how burned its audience already is. Being a good creator and being a good creative director are almost unrelated skills, closer to athlete versus coach, and directing someone else requires managing their emotional state, expectations, and energy, not just having good ideas. The practical payoff is a KPI ladder: hold yourself to output for the first 1-3 months, then to the metric that matches the client's actual funnel stage, never to revenue you don't control.
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The team discusses using Higgs Field and a Kling-class AI model to clone a client's voice and mannerisms into new talking-head video for $5-10 a clip, why it can't yet go lower per-second, and why it worked undetected on one account (42 AI videos, zero comments) but wouldn't work on an expressive creator.
04:02 – 10:36
02 · The five levels of market sophistication
A framework for scaling content boldness to how skeptical a market already is, from level 1 (just say clearly what you do) through level 5 (winner-take-all or diversify), with claims and mechanisms escalating as competitors enter.
10:36 – 15:09
03 · Show, don't tell and luxury signaling
Case studies on when proof beats claims: Hormozy's shift to demonstrating expertise on stage, a luxury home builder pushing to show more before his market is ready for it, and why naming an expensive detail (a $6,000 oven knob) can be the selling point for high-ticket buyers.
15:09 – 23:27
04 · Tier rankings come back, and the Life Force 8
Why tier-ranking videos saturated and are now peaking again on fresher angles, and how the group ties any topic to one of eight primal desires (sex, longevity, food, survival, status, social approval, comfort, protecting loved ones) to find the angle.
23:27 – 30:21
05 · Creative direction as its own skill
Why being a great creator and being a great creative director are almost unrelated abilities, using the athlete-versus-coach analogy, and why chasing a large creator's current tactics is usually the wrong move for someone earlier in the journey.
30:21 – 35:55
06 · Three layers of talent and client management
A breakdown of talent management into emotional intelligence, expectation-setting and education, and managing a client's actual energy and time, plus why a format the client hates is worthless no matter how well it performs.
35:55 – 41:15
07 · Client scenarios: the podcast pivot and the boosted-post mistake
Two roleplayed client situations: a brand-new client who wants to jump straight to a solo podcast, and an existing client who started boosting every organic post with ad spend without asking first.
41:15 – 49:04
08 · The output-then-funnel KPI ladder
Why output (are you actually filming and posting) should be the only KPI for the first 1-3 months, and how the next KPI has to match the client's real funnel stage, leads, webinar signups, or VSL click-throughs, never revenue a creative director doesn't control.
49:04 – 58:02
09 · Live strategy build: the blind gardener
A live Dungeons-and-Dragons-style exercise building a full content strategy for a fictional client: a blind, ultra-wealthy hydroponic gardener. The team lands on in-person events, gamified challenges, blind taste-tests, and connection-driven vlogs as the core pillars.
58:02 – 1:02:16
10 · Staffing, budget, and ROI for the mock strategy
Sizing the crew (videographer, full-time editor, clippers) and budget (roughly $50K/month total, split between production and clipper payouts) needed to run the gardener strategy, and projecting it into an eight-figure business.
Atomic Insights
Lines worth screenshotting.
AI avatar clones now cost $5-10 per 30-second video and are close to indistinguishable from the real person's voice and mannerisms.
One creator posted 42 AI-generated videos over a week off-camera and not a single viewer noticed.
AI clones work best on naturally monotone, script-reading talent, because the clone reproduces exactly the delivery it was trained on.
A level-1 market is so unsophisticated that simply stating what you do, clearly and consistently, is enough to sell.
As competitors enter a market, content has to get louder and start attaching specific, provable claims and numbers.
Skipping straight to advanced, show-don't-tell content in an unsophisticated market isn't harmful, it's just wasted effort the audience isn't ready for.
In saturated, skeptical markets, showing proof (results, other people's transformations) converts better than louder claims.
The exact same content format loses its value the moment everyone in a niche is doing it.
High-ticket buyers identify with price itself, so naming an expensive detail out loud can be a selling point, not something to hide.
Tier-ranking videos saturated, went quiet, and are now working again because creators are aiming the same structure at fresher angles.
Nearly every viral hook maps to one of eight primal human desires: sex, longevity, food, safety, status, social approval, comfort, and protecting loved ones.
Being good at making content and being good at directing someone else to make it are almost unrelated skills, like an athlete versus a coach.
A format that gets great engagement is worthless if the client hates making it, because they quietly stop showing up to film it.
Boosting organic posts with ad spend trains the platform to only distribute your content when you pay, and pushes it to people who don't care about your brand.
In the first 1-3 months, output (are you actually filming and posting) is the only KPI a creative director should be judged on.
A creative director should pick a single metric they fully control and refuse to be evaluated on anything outside that.
The metric after output has to match the client's actual funnel stage: leads for a booked-call funnel, webinar signups for a webinar funnel, click-throughs for a VSL funnel.
Interactive, in-person formats (events, AMAs, blind taste-tests) beat passive lifestyle content for someone with real access, because access is the thing competitors can't copy.
A full-time editor's real job in a high-volume operation is turnaround speed, so footage ships the same day instead of piling up unused for a month.
Takeaway
Content Strategy Is Reading Market Skepticism
WHAT TO LEARN
Every tactic in this conversation, from AI clones to tier-ranking hooks to KPI choice, is really the same skill applied differently: matching your content's boldness to how skeptical and saturated your specific market already is.
01AI clone avatars: cost and who they fool
AI avatar clones are cheap enough now ($5-10 for a 30-second clip) to test as a format, but the cost doesn't fall much even at 3 seconds, so it's not yet viable at real scale.
AI clones work best on naturally monotone, script-reading talent, because the clone reproduces exactly the delivery it was trained on, a stiff reader stays stiff as AI.
One creator ran 42 AI-generated videos over a week off-camera and not a single viewer commented that anything was off, meaning audiences judge consistency and content, not proof a person is real.
02The five levels of market sophistication
A market's sophistication level, not the creator's ambition, should set the content strategy: an unsophisticated market rewards simply and repeatedly stating what you do.
As competitors enter a market, content has to get louder, attach specific numbers and claims, and eventually name a repeatable mechanism or method.
Skipping straight to advanced, show-don't-tell content in an unsophisticated market isn't harmful, it's just wasted effort on an audience that hasn't been sold on the category yet.
03Show, don't tell and luxury signaling
Once a market is skeptical from being burned before, visible proof (results, showing the work) converts better than louder claims.
The exact same content format loses its value the moment everyone in a niche is doing it, novelty inside a niche is worth more than technical polish.
High-ticket buyers identify with the price itself, so naming an expensive detail out loud can be a selling point instead of something to downplay.
04Tier rankings come back, and the Life Force 8
A content format doesn't die permanently when it saturates, it cycles back once creators point the same structure at a fresher angle.
Nearly every viral hook maps to one of eight primal human desires (sex, longevity, food, safety, status, social approval, comfort, protecting loved ones), when an idea feels compelling, it's usually hitting one of these.
The fastest way to refresh a tired format is to re-run it against a desire nobody's attached to it yet, like ranking exercises by lifespan impact instead of by muscle built.
05Creative direction as its own skill
Being good at making content and being good at directing someone else to make it are almost unrelated skills, closer to the difference between an athlete and a coach.
A creative director doesn't need their own large audience to be credible, results and process matter more than personal follower count.
Watching a huge creator for tactics is usually the wrong move, because their current content reflects a completely different stage and standing than yours.
06Three layers of talent and client management
Managing a content creator has three separate layers: emotional intelligence, expectation-setting and education, and managing their actual energy and available time.
A format that performs well is worthless if the client hates making it, because they'll quietly stop showing up to film it again.
Understanding what a client actually means by their words, not just the literal words, prevents a strategy from drifting out of sync with what they'll really execute.
07Client scenarios: the podcast pivot and the boosted-post mistake
When a new client wants to skip straight to an ambitious format before they've built camera comfort, get them a small, fast win first rather than refusing outright.
Boosting organic posts with ad spend trains the platform to distribute your content only when you pay for it, and pushes it to people who don't care about your brand.
The way to stop a client from a costly content mistake is to walk them through the actual mechanism of what happens next, then let them decide.
08The output-then-funnel KPI ladder
In the first 1-3 months, output (did the agreed content actually get filmed and posted) should be the only KPI a creative director is judged on.
The metric after output has to match the client's real funnel stage, leads for a booked-call funnel, webinar signups for a webinar funnel, click-throughs for a VSL funnel.
Picking a single metric you fully control and refusing to be evaluated on anything outside it is what makes a creative director's value provable to a client.
09Live strategy build: the blind gardener
A content strategy should be built from what's genuinely differentiating about the person, not from a generic content calendar template.
Interactive, in-person formats (events, AMAs, blind taste-tests) beat passive lifestyle content for someone with real access and money, because access is the thing competitors can't copy.
Even an entertainment-heavy strategy needs one non-lifestyle pillar built for reach, like a challenge or gamified format, so the content isn't only interesting to people who already know the creator.
10Staffing, budget, and ROI for the mock strategy
The real bottleneck in a high-volume content operation is turnaround speed, not ideas, a full-time editor exists so footage ships the same day instead of sitting unused for a month.
Clipper pay rates are a negotiation, not a fixed rule, the team priced in around $350-500 per million views blended, enough to retain good clippers without overpaying before results are proven.
An aggressive content strategy only pencils out if the budget is sized against a realistic revenue ceiling first, spend should follow the size of the opportunity, not the other way around.
Glossary
Terms worth knowing.
Market sophistication level
A 1-to-5 scale for how skeptical and saturated a niche's audience already is, used here to decide how bold, technical, or proof-heavy content needs to be.
Show, don't tell
A content approach where you demonstrate expertise by doing the work on camera (solving a real problem, working with a real client) instead of just talking about your skill.
Life Force 8
A list of eight primal human desires from the direct-response marketing book Cashvertising (sex, longevity, food, safety, status, social approval, comfort, protecting loved ones) used here to explain why certain content hooks land.
Tier ranking
A content format that ranks a list of items (exercises, foods, habits) into tiers like S, A, B, D, F, popular in fitness and self-improvement content.
Creative director (CD)
The role that plans and directs a creator's or client's content strategy, distinct from the role of the on-camera talent itself.
Output KPI
Measuring a creative director's early performance purely by whether agreed-upon content actually got filmed and posted, before deeper funnel metrics are meaningful.
Clipper
A freelancer paid per views generated to cut a creator's longer footage into short-form clips for distribution, typically compensated per million views.
Resources
Things they pointed at.
00:30toolHiggs Field
00:35toolKling (transcribed as "C-Dance" / "C-Dance 2.5" — almost certainly Kling's 2.5 video model)
“Humans are naturally trustworthy until they're proven to not trust that person or given a reason not to trust that person.”
Standalone thesis on why skeptical markets need proof, not louder claims.→ IG reel cold open↗ Tweet quote
12:23
“Why over complicate it when the thing that's simpler works and you can just do more of it?”
Blunt, contrarian one-liner against overproduction.→ TikTok hook↗ Tweet quote
13:27
“It used to be the case that you just have an amazing body, you could succeed... It doesn't work anymore because everyone else is jacked as fuck.”
Vivid, funny, and sets up the niche-saturation argument in one line.→ TikTok hook↗ Tweet quote
10:08
“The knob on an oven, the person walks through and is like, that's a $6,000 knob. Just like turn the gas on, right?”
Concrete, absurd image that lands the luxury-signaling point instantly.→ newsletter pull-quote↗ Tweet quote
18:07
“There's this thought of like if you fall and break your hip you basically die.”
Visceral fear-based hook explaining a real content angle shift toward longevity.→ IG reel cold open↗ Tweet quote
23:05
“I don't spend very much money, I only spend about $20,000 a month, but more than half of it is spent on pre-emptive medical care for me and my wife's parents.”
Specific, surprising number from a real multi-millionaire's budget; strong story hook.→ TikTok hook↗ Tweet quote
24:00
“The best athletes are not the best coaches, and the best students are not the best teachers.”
Tight, standalone thesis on why creating and directing are different skills.→ IG reel cold open↗ Tweet quote
29:15
“Creativity doesn't scale.”
Three words, extremely quotable, sets up the whole case for creative direction as a role.→ newsletter pull-quote↗ Tweet quote
44:12
“Output is a great thing to tie yourself to as a creative director because it's one of the few things that you can control with content.”
The core KPI argument in one line.→ newsletter pull-quote↗ Tweet quote
Topic Map
Where the conversation goes.
00:00 – 04:02denseAI avatar clones for client content
58:02 – 1:02:16steadyStaffing, budget, and ROI projection
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Let's start by talking about a strategy that you're actively ripping right now for a client. You know, Chase, do you want to start us off on some of the AI exploration you're doing with Higgs Field and C -Dance? Yeah, C -Dance's new 2 .5 model is killer for putting out like photo realistic video of clients.
It's close to one for one for like the voice and the mannerisms and even the tone of the way that the creators talk and makes it really easy to take a regular talking head video. turn it into a more elevated format green screen split screen um so that's something that i'm playing with right now trying to figure out a way to make that reliable from a quality standpoint but also scalable without blowing thousands of dollars yeah because what what's like yeah what's like the average uh like cost per video right now it's like five to ten dollars right now so you can't just rip that for charlie no that would be sick i think one thing that you probably could do is potentially get the body for like five to ten bucks and then get the hook five times for like a couple cents so right now you could at least like re -hook over and over and then maybe have like an editor come in and actually do like different like green screen b -roll yeah because the like five to ten dollar per video is that a 30 second video and it'll go down a little bit it's not like
you know, if we'd change that to three seconds, I still don't think it gets scalable right now. But I do think that there's a world where we figure out a way to do that. For Richard part one, for Asian Richard, and then why Richard?
We're getting too specific now. Okay, you're right. You're right.
So for Richard, he said he did, I think he did. So he posts six times a day and he took a week off of content. And so he did six videos for seven days.
So 56, or is that 42?
42 videos, all AI, and not one comment noticed with this strategy. Well, I didn't even know it was AI when I saw it. Yeah, here's the other part, though, is some people who are a little bit more monotonous on camera.
It says on the format, too, like a podcast format. And he also talks exactly how he would talk on a podcast reel. Because he previously would read off a script, and so it would feel like you could tell he's reading off a script.
but then you move over to the ai and he still feels like he's reading up a script as ai so i'll be curious for someone who's a little bit more like expressive and has like a higher tone if we can actually get away with it like that would never work for like nick yeah nick is a great example of someone that like we have to see but like i don't think so yeah unless you put him on a podcast format yeah but even then he has like his He's just a creator naturally, so he's good at that.
I think about the categories that we talked about on Monday of people who are operators that are starting to become creators. This is probably a good strategy for them, especially if they're early in the journey. But if you have a creator -leaning person who is now a business person or now an operator, it's not going to work as much because their camera presence is better.
That makes a ton of sense. So it's like this doesn't work for like the Hormozy type of archetype who's creator first, building business second, but it does work for your local business owner who's also not just time or not just bad on camera, but they're also low on time. Right.
So it's like a win -win almost. So like in niches that I've noticed who have like a lot of just skepticism around it. So like the TikTok shop niche, the what?
The peptize niche. Even the peptize, just like kind of the level three, level four sophistication markets where they've just been burned so much. Like content that is showing how good that person at that skill is.
So example, Hormozy, instead of just talking to the camera for some stuff, he starts working with business owners and showing how good he is. Or half his content now is literally people asking him questions and him solving it on stage. Because it kind of just showcases, it shows how good you are at something.
For Nick, the reason we did the podcast show, or sorry, the call -in show, was because people who are real ask him competent questions and he can respond how he would normally. He'd sing the same stuff he would in a Yap video, but just seen differently with more authority because he's showing how good he is. Talk about sophistication levels, like market sophistication.
Yeah, so I like to think like... A level one sophistication market is like one where you could just go in and say the most broad offer ever and people would buy it. So there's a dude right now that I know of who sells coaching or he helps people set up their homes or helps people invest into homes that are like recovery addiction homes for addicts.
super blue ocean market yeah it's like eddie cumberbatch whenever he launched growth operating cardinal mason whenever he did his ai copywriting yeah so you can kind of just say the whole the whole point of a level one market is just say exactly what you are doing make it as clear as possible and if you can do that and make consistent content that doesn't have to even be good then it works and it was level two a level two mark is still pretty blue ocean but other people start coming into it so example if this guy started getting other people making content about it He's a first mover, so he has the natural authority.
Maybe there's some big players that start coming. Maybe Grant Cardone starts coming into the buying recovery houses thing. Then there's more competition.
And then there is kind of like you have to start being more intentional with content. You have to be louder. So like more content, advertise more, start having different beliefs, start differentiating yourself from these competitors so people can see you as.
the main person level four would be like smma trading drop shipping all the stuff that iman did for six years tick tock shops probably like a level three where it's getting there because more people can get into it and there's i mean every day now you see somebody launching a coaching program on tick tock shop ugc so and it's just easier i like to also think of it as like if the market is easy to get into it's naturally going to be something that saturates fast But when you need something like a lot of money to buy a recovery home, it's harder to become an authority in there because you need to have a lot of money to do it in the first place.
With a TikTok shop, for example, you could just create content and you're in. Yeah, I think that's really good. So like level one is the intro.
You can basically just talk about whatever you want. Level two, you said you have to be louder. I've heard it say like you actually have to start attaching claims.
to the thesis so basically like i made this much or i helped this person do this or whatever kind of you gotta be careful with that obviously and then three is you start to develop mechanisms yeah so now i'm turning it into like acronyms and strategies and all that stuff but then four this is really interesting this is where you move into like a show don't tell right if you can actually show the person doing some elite stuff and then level five it's either winner take all or diversify right so you either start thinking of some other stuff or you to launch a second branch of your content strategy.
Yeah. Humans are naturally trustworthy until they're proven to not trust that person or given a reason not to trust that person. It's the same thing in a relationship.
If somebody starts doing things that you don't like, maybe it starts like you need more trust in that person that starts showing you that they're kind of really treating it serious. It's the same thing in a market. Like people are going to be skeptical because they've been burned before.
almost everyone in the level four or five markets have been burned before so it's like why do i trust you now and that's where showing is like okay well i'm not buying this thing yet but just from what i've seen i'm learning stuff from him he's showing other people in my situation that are doing and getting good results okay now i can maybe book a call with him or i can go in his webinar or i can go sign up for his newsletter and then there's like different steps and it's just a longer sales cycle with content This is interesting with Austin because he's peeing in us, hey, saying like, hey, I want to show more, I want to show more, I want to show more.
But like his market, there's not a ton of people in it. There's like medium, but it's definitely not like a market, like level four market. So showing show don't tell matters less for a luxury home builder, right?
Because there's not like hundreds of thousands of luxury home builders out there making content. Like he's still in like a level like two to three. But he really wants to show, which is fair, we can like easily do it.
But he was pushing that as like a high priority. And we were kind of like, yeah, like, yeah, sure, man. Like, totally.
That's a great idea. But we're not even really establishing mechanisms or quality claims on a consistent basis. I think it depends on the niche, too.
Because if like, imagine you're a fairly wealthy individual who wants to get a luxury home built for themselves or luxury kitchen. My mom's not going to go. buy from somebody that they haven't seen results from and that the content's good enough and showcases that and it's a very showy niche like it's it has to be visually appealing for me to at least get interested in in what you're going to do for me then that's the case i think there's also like a standard thing too of like everybody in the real estate and builder space is doing like property walkers yeah and like very few people are telling you what installation you should be using what this process is going to take like how long the process is going to take what the process looks like in one state or one region versus the other and there's like a novelty there where if you're going to come in and do the same thing that everybody else is going to do it like loses its value that's really interesting and then combining that with the showing the walkthroughs you know obviously tastefully and done right with education is probably the combo for someone like austin like you said
Are you ever going to really buy something from someone you've never even seen their work before? But you also don't want to just fall all the way into all I do is show, show, show and do walkthroughs because now you're just trying to do views. You're just trying to do the seven second, let me show you the sick ass pool in the backyard.
But there's no education, right? I think what's important for that market too is that people who have a lot of money tend to have a lot of ego. So they identify themselves with nicer things.
Like that's probably an example of a market where you could showcase price that is... fairly expensive like i don't know walking through luxury kitchen like this thing costs 19 grand this thing costs 18 grand where people who have a lot of money are like well i want those nicer things the i'm not really worried about the price right now so i'm going to identify with that more it's like the person who buys first class is probably going to buy first class for the future just because they want to be the person who finds first class the same thing so there's just like just think of what they would identify with it's a luxury home builder's example of that I think Jeremy Haynes has a video about this exact thing, content propaganda.
And yeah, it just sounds super familiar. Him talking about some like, it's either him or Oren. One of those guys has like luxury signaling.
And it's about how like what you just described, the knob on an oven. The person walks through and is like, that's a $6 ,000 knob. Just like turn the gas on, right?
It appeals to a certain audience. interesting i think like one thing that i'm curious about to get your guys's thoughts on is like what happens if you skip a step and i know that we talked about like austin for example but that feels like industry dependent like if you jump immediately to level two or immediately to level four level five like is that uh is that doing a disservice to your brand i thought it's not a disservice it's just you gotta think about opportunity costs right so if nobody in the world knows about these these uh what are they called middle houses or halfway homes for people recovering you don't need to like go and get wildly technical because people haven't even been bought into the concept so they're going to scroll past the extremely technical stuff right so you just spend most of your time doing more entry -level content until the market is more sophisticated now they actually want to see the profit and loss statement how you market it but if you're like going right out of the rip how to market how to do marketing to prisons to send out
there as a halfway home so you get company that's like probably too far down the sophistication level for the beginning so not a disservice it's still just like on point but it's just probably like a waste of a piece of content at that stage example of his content is he'll just post it's like the classic five second b -roll which like war is just popping up on screen like that's the content he makes but he he did like a million dollars this month it's whatever is the easiest thing for you to do why over complicate it when the thing that's simpler works and you can just do more of it that's why we were able to grow so fast which that's like a very pointed name but it's like nobody in the home service space was doing tier ranking any format at all so you could come in and like do a format that dan martell has beat to the ground but just do it in the home services and it was gonna rip this is why we like we're teaching research and cda is the beginning because if you understand where the market stands you can go into marketing take it over just by being different but it's not exactly different it's just pulling things from outside niche yes and like caleb says it all the time but it's like if you're in the fitness niche you're probably one of the most competitive niches content wise because it's easy to get into the fitness niche there's a low barrier entry so the content you have to make has to be extremely unique for everyone else otherwise you're just batching with everyone else or
All right. It used to be the case that you just have an amazing body. You could succeed.
It's like probably 10, 15 years ago. It doesn't work anymore because everyone else is jacked as fuck. But like if you go into the home service space, it's very easy because you did the market research.
You understand what people are looking for. You understand what's already happening. In this case, what most people suck at in that space, you bring in a super easy concept of formats and it rips.
This is just unique. It's like whatever. And then.
that's probably like a level two market with content level one this is very similar to richard l right like how many dentists out there are actually putting like format spice on it that's something that uh i've been really enjoying about working with him because i think like he is a unique case where you can really gamify content and not lose value from it because the information that he's putting out is so niche and so specific and so valuable of like not only are there not very many dentists that are putting out formats like that but that have the target audience that he has where it's like not appealing to patients and you know we put out a pause quiz and that not only does it do numbers but it also converts because the information in the pause quiz is like they're buzzwords it's like industry insider info what's the format you guys are seeing when right now are you doing much Format exploration.
You have a lot of level one market sophistication clients level two. So you're like format variety doesn't have to get that crazy. You know, from like, like Ben already has like kind of format stability already has his go tos.
But someone like Austin and Oliver and even Cabran, who's like firing up a little bit more on a level four sophistication, but like firing up like you're not getting too crazy with formats. But are you seeing one that you're kind of liking in that early stage? There's not really an early stage.
I think one thing that is surprising me is how well the tier rankings are still working. I thought that those were kind of dying out. It seemed like they were getting rinsed.
I'm seeing more and more of those and they are like it seems like they were working and then they were getting oversaturated and they were starting to decline. But now we've like we're on the way back up to another peak and I'm seeing it across the board. Like I'm seeing them rip and even like the fitness space again.
And they're taking slightly different angles. And I think the angle is the unlock there. With Cabrin, we've got one that we're working on where it's like ranking AI in different industries based on how valuable AI is.
But like the spin that we're taking is like the industries where it's the most valuable are the ones that haven't adopted it yet. And the industries where it's less valuable are where it's saturated. So like sales and marketing were F tier on this ranking because it's oversaturated.
And I think like that's part of the reason why that format is. coming back up to another peak is because people are getting a little bit creative more creative in the way that they're executing it okay that's really good let's do like an exercise what's a bad example let's do the fitness niche what's a bad example of a tier ranking angle and then like what you would maybe say is like a good angle i'm putting a spot here like a bad example is like ranking chest exercises yeah exactly too basic okay everybody has seen that um I think I'm trying to think of like a good example off the top of my head of an angle in the fitness space that I haven't seen a ton of.
I think like catching the pendulum swinging with what's popular is really important. And there has been a swing or they're starting to be a swing in the fitness space. Everybody was talking about like Pilates, protein.
getting your steps in. And now from the nutrition side of things, everybody is talking about how like carbs are more important. It's like, oh, carbs are more important than protein, which is a complete reversal of what's been popular over the last five years or so.
And seeing formats like a tier ranking where now carbs are getting put at S tier, but protein is getting put at like D tier. There's a shock value in there and almost like a micro like. counter position that is in line with the way that the industry is going but they're still so early into that swing that's just printing for them again like example this is like catching the longevity swing that's still like a health wellness longevity swing so you could do like ranking uh exercises that increase your lifespan more yeah or diets that increase your license more there's even more niche stuff there that's true and i'm thinking about research and signal like dom iacobone just had a video rip where he was talking about the only two things he trains are VO2 max and grip strength.
Cause those are the signals, the indicators of longevity. So what you could do is a tier ranking of longevity signals, put VO2 max and grip strength at S tier, but you're putting like blood pressure. Yeah.
Some of that stuff, you know, right. Could be lower, you know, what's the. There's one where it's like if you there's this thought of like if you fall and break your hip you basically die like Yeah, and yeah, so like so there'd be something about hip mobility being towards the top, right?
I Think that's a good call -out of the way that the fitness space is moving. I don't know if you guys know lean beef daddy Yeah like she posted a video training her hip flexors and like That used to be you were really like you had like a physical therapy background or you've had some other micro background where you're focused on those things But now that's coming back into like what's being popular where you walk into a commercial gym Nobody's training their hip flexors But you have one of the biggest fitness creators in the industry that's talking about how they're training their hip flexors in line with people that are talking about their vo2 max and their grip strength and protecting their hips like it's Nobody's just trying to like blast gear and get super jacked anymore and not worry about their heart.
They're like, oh I should probably I'm blasting gear into my hip flexors. What about that?
Hey, if you're in a fitness space, there's your first viral video today, a tier ranking of longevity metrics. So teed up for you on a silver platter. It's just a good example of the sophistication level.
It's like, how can you get more niche and unique or cater it towards a desire or a fear that people have? And it always just goes back to how humans think. The hip flexor thing is probably somewhat tied to...
longevity with the hips right so same thing vo2 max is how can i live longer and it's the fear of dying right so it's like whenever in doubt just try and think of a unique way to tie it to something that humans have always cared about for centuries yeah this is live can you do me a quick favor can you just go to chat gbt or whatever and get the life force eight just say hey what are the life force eight from cash advertising one of them is is uh lust yep sex So the pursuit of sex.
One of them is the pursuit of longevity. One of them is the pursuit of the pleasure of food. Survival.
Comfortable conditions. What was that one? Superiority?
Yeah, yeah. So superiority slash keeping up with the Joneses. That's like social status, you could say.
Oh, okay. social approval as its own, care and protection of loved ones. So that would be the longevity one.
It's like you care about your parents. And that could even be the next spanner. Imagine if you added, if you A -B tested this, but you added longevity metrics, but you added longevity metrics for your parents and just see if there's like a more of an emotional attachment to it.
Cause it's obviously for loved ones. Yeah. So there's, there, there, I have, I somehow have nine on there.
So I must have actually doubled up, but that's like an easy way to attach your tier ranking or something like that to one of these. you know you can go through and just a b test the exact same concepts but then just you just cycle through sentences like imagine doing a tier ranking tier ranking metrics that are going to make you more bangable yeah tier ranking metrics that are going to make you live longer tier ranking foods that taste good that are going to improve your yeah i'm trying to think of food how like the pleasure of food ranking foods that taste amazing but Make you lose fat.
There you go. Survival, which is already kind of back to a comfortable living is an easy one. Like that's like tier ranking movements that are going to make sure that you can still play with your kids whenever you're 45.
Yeah. Or your back doesn't hurt. Your back doesn't hurt.
You know, superiority and social status, tier ranking movements that are going to, or tier ranking muscle groups that make you stand out whenever you walk into any room. You know, yeah, it's all of these things are just a little bit different than to ranking my top five favorite books in the fitness space all of those videos that everybody was rinsing about like how to be a 10 out of 10 like whatever or how to get disgustingly X if you just like made a tier ranking video with that same framing of that 10 out of 10 it would they were the ones that do rip it's like how to how to tenants and habits to make you in disgustingly attractive to women or like that would rip eloquent in speech which is connected back to the superiority i think most of those you can like i kind of gut check it if if i have an idea and i saw somebody make a video about the ranking best habit or ranking best exercise to make sure your parents live longer i like kind of i like feel something a little bit it's like i i'm definitely gonna watch that video so and maybe there's other ones i wouldn't watch it but like for men for example
You totally target the idea of sex and lust and desire. But for women, it might be a little bit different, the angle you play there. But I always kind of like gut check it.
Like I usually will feel something towards the idea. And I'm like, okay, that's probably a good topic at least. Another thing I do is I like almost in a way go through my memory log and be like, has anything in my past stuck out to me?
Yeah. Right. And so like you talking about, I was talking about like longevity with parents.
I'll never forget this. This podcast with a guy named Nick Huber talking about his budget So he's like a multi multi -millionaire like worth 50 million dollars at the time and he says I don't spend very much money I only spend about $20 ,000 a month but more than half of it is spent on Pre -emptive medical care for me and my wife's parents and that like stuck out to me So if you remember something you remember it because it made an impact on you and it made an impact on you There's probably emotional resonance to it.
If there's motion resonance to it probably go viral on the internet. Okay.
Let's talk about the, let's talk about the art of, of being a creative director. Like we talked about content strategy, but specifically creative direction, like more so as a job, as a skillset. Chase, let's start with you.
You've been being a CD world for eight months. You come from a traditional content space, a little bit of UGC stuff there with our tech, but what is the skill that is the biggest difference from transitioning from being a solo content creator to being an actual creative director for. like an actual client or a talent the like analogy that i keep coming back to where analogies is about how like the best uh athletes are not the best coaches and best students are not the best teachers like the ability to execute on your own is completely different than the ability to articulate the thought process and the strategy that goes into what you're doing and i almost think that there's like no correlation between the two like you can be a phenomenal creator who is just kind of like doing things based off of vibes or because you have these inherent skills that come naturally to you and not know how to direct somebody to do the same thing i think like my experience as a creator is helping me to relate to clients of like i know what it feels like to have a block for recording videos i know what it feels like to be busy and not want to record or to record something and not want to put it out because you don't feel super strongly about it but the actual skills of like
knowing what emotional triggers you're going after when you create a video or when you make a hook or knowing having a pulse on the space and knowing how to differentiate yourself are not things that i was thinking about as a creator and are things that i have had to be more intentional about doing with all the clients that i've been working with it's almost a completely different skill set in my opinion yeah this is really good and so sometimes people will dm me and be like well, dude, the reason I want to work with you is because you have figured it out for yourself.
And it's like, I'm going to take it. I'm not going to be like, not going to like say that that doesn't matter. Cause like, obviously that's like a lead, but it really doesn't matter as much.
Like somebody with 1000 followers, it can just be equally as qualified as a creative director. Someone else, there's a guy named, I think, Jimmy Johnson. He's the founder of Say Coma Say.
Have you guys heard of that agency? They do like the founders podcasts, Jesse Itzler. um a few other really really big names and uh he has like no personal brand you know but he's one of the best short -form agencies there is out there um so i i agree heavily with that it's uh the coach the coach athlete is a really good example you know out of anything about the nfl like not many NFL coaches were actually phenomenal athletes.
I can't even think of like maybe like one, like Mike Rabel for the Patriots, like the only one, you know? So that's a good analogy. Yeah.
And I think like there are like, you have to have service skills, like people skills in order to be able to be a good creative director. And you don't need to have those skills to be a good creator. And I think like there are also so many people that want to build a personal brand that want to be creators that look at large creators.
not understanding that there are intangibles, especially when you're looking at really large creators, right? If you've got a million plus followers, it's like a lot of the time you shouldn't be emulating the things that they're doing. Number one, they are on a completely different journey than what you're on.
And if you are going to look at a larger creator, you should be looking at the things that they were doing earlier to an extent. So obviously the market is different and what standard is different. But it's like those are just not people you should be looking to for strategy or for execution.
I agree 100%. Nico, what do you think is the biggest difference from being a personal creator and being a CD that you notice? I think when I was a creator, it was just like a lot of vibes.
It was like, oh, this feels good. This seems like it's going to work. Oh, I saw this video four weeks ago.
I don't really know what he said, but I can like kind of copy it. And then to go and do that for myself, it's pretty easy because I have entire control over what I'm doing. It's different when you have somebody else to kind of guide through that process.
You can't just say, hey, I have a good feeling about this. Go film it. Because first off, they might not even film in the first place because they're not sold on the idea.
Also, it's probably not a good strategy to go along with somebody and say, hey, this feels good. Hey, this feels good. This feels good.
So I think it's like being able to break it down into something that somebody else can do, like a teaching aspect is pretty hard. There's also like other skills I want you to understand before. Like I understood scripting just because I did it for myself.
But like coming up with ideas. like basic back -end stuff as well like i never had any experience with that and there's a creative director is also someone who can like run everything on the back end as well it's just different skills like it's you have to become more complete honestly you're quite an operator yet but there's definitely things that you have to kind of understand and learn about and being able to manage that relationship with the client yeah i uh i always say that like the modern day creative director is one of the rarest jobs to fill because the two core skill sets are in juxtaposition with each other that you have to be creative and artistic and then systematic and operational and those are always that's like type a and type b people right it's like you never get those two people in the same bundle it's really hard to find yeah right and so usually what you have to do is you have to pick one and then hope to train the other but usually there's a level of reluctance that comes to it you have to be great at both you have to have your core one that you're best at and lean into it but then develop the other but um it's hard to get both right and if you're just a creator you don't need the operation side you can just be the creator but creativity doesn't scale right and so whenever you're trying to post multiple times across multiple platforms
and get the most out of one recording session and then scale it over to youtube and make sure that three or four editors can get involved and multiple videographers can get involved and other strategists and copywriters and script writers can get involved then you can't just go like vibes like you said you can't just go creativity right it doesn't scale past maybe one video a day with no editor right that's like the classic like yeah creative that's about as far as vibes can get you at scale so yeah i think that's huge nico you've been a creative director for a lot longer at least in the space what do you feel like the you know besides the main difference what do you feel like the the most important attribute of a great creative director is is it the same thing as just no it's it's client management like talent management you have amazing ideas but if they don't perform in the film if they don't i i would actually take a step back it's probably just management in general like it's one thing to have good ideas and to see it visually but then to make it
happen is an entirely different skill. Walk through talent management more. What do you mean by that?
And then we'll go to team management. Let's break these up into two different categories. So I think client management is probably like one of the most important things to focus on with anything dealing with a creator simply because you have to take into consideration there's different personality types, there's different formats that work, different personality types, there's different topics that they believe in that they don't believe in, which is why I always recommend like a client research phase is always going to be step number one, because then you're going to, if you don't do that, then you're going to cater a strategy to someone who can't even fill on that strategy in the first place.
And I think that's the first step with like client management, client or talent management sounds a little bit cooler. Talent management is because once you understand their beliefs, their personalities, do they suck on camera? Do they have a background with just talking in general?
If they're in sales, if they're an actor, if They're naturally a speaker on stage. They're going to be better at talking and maybe yapping videos or formats that kind of rely more heavily on communication.
They'll perform. And like I used to work with somebody who's just this classic operator German dude who had English as a second language. That was just not his thing.
So you have to kind of cater your formats to their personality, but also their energy. If somebody sits down and films for an hour and a half and it's not a form that's fit for them. they're gonna say you dude because i feel like after i filmed this stuff because it wasn't good for the energy so example with christian okay well if that doesn't work and we tried it for a long time why don't i go put them up on stages and podcasts and have people ask questions and clip them up because that's where he got energy from it's easy for us to do because he i mean this in that swat analysis he had the money to be able to go and travel and do these things so we can play into that um and i think that's where the talent management it's like energy personality It's understanding the combination of those two and then what strategy works best for them, not just what is the best strategy that you can come up with.
Yeah, it's really good. I think there's like probably like three levels of talent management. There's emotional intelligence, which is like, can you can you keep do you understand what they're thinking?
Can you basically be their friend? Like, are you fun to be around? There's that side of it.
There's expectation setting and education, which is like they're going to want to do stuff. that doesn't make sense because they saw some 30 second reel you know can you educate them and set an expectation of a proper timeline and clearly communicate where we're going and hold authority because like you are the authority in the content space they might be the authority in whatever but you're the you're their authority in content can you communicate and the third one is like you said energy and time right like if this person only has one hour a week to record content Can you be efficient with the time?
Can you keep their energy high? Like you said, can you put them in containers that make the most sense where their energy is flourishing? All of that stuff.
Like if you can crush those three, you kind of have talent management. But you've been kind of put through the ringer with some talent management on these first couple months. What have you learned from navigating different personality types, different expectations?
I think that like making the talent or the energy management is huge. And something that I've been doing with all of my clients is just like asking what the recording process feels like. Like, yeah, I know that you got it done, but like how painful was that?
Did it take you a while to get going? Did you think it was going to be painful because it was new and then it was actually easier to record or like you got it done, but you're like, damn, I don't want to come back to that format again. This is huge.
Like you don't ever want somebody, I think about it as like removing barriers. Like how can I have this idea that's not only like the demand, like there's proof of demand. this format makes sense but there can be proof of demand with a killer format but if the client hates it it like doesn't matter like maybe we get one if they execute it properly but like when we come back to it next week are they going to want to do that are they bought into it um and i think just like spending time with the client is really important too like we talked about like how much time your viewer has to spend with you before they purchase from you i think it's a similar thing with your client like you have to spend a certain amount of time in order for them to get bought into the stuff that you're trying to get them to execute and there's also an aspect of like obviously you have to listen to what they're communicating but then you have to also understand what they are actually communicating with what they're telling you that's hugely important because there can be some times where like you guys are saying the same words but it means one thing to you and it means one thing to the client and even though you guys are talking about the same thing like if they're missing there that's going to cause a problem with the execution so i think like the the energy and the talent management there is something that um i don't want to say figuring out but that i'm placing more importance on now and i think like
From my previous experience, I have less time with my clients now on a weekly basis than I did before. So it's taking a little bit longer to get there, but also finding ways to make up for that time kind of in the margins in a way where it still makes sense for everybody's schedule because not everybody has two to three hours a week to be on a call where you can build that relationship on the front end.
I'm going to throw scenarios at you guys of what a client might throw at you or a talent might throw at you. and i want to know how you kind of navigate it okay so chase we'll start with you uh person says um you suggest we're gonna start with these seven short form videos these formats and they come to you and say hey i actually want to do a solo podcast and clip it up um because i don't have enough time i want to crush two birds with one stone long form and short form they've never posted content before is that the move what do you say to them This is a little dependent on the communication skills and comfort level on camera with the client.
Because they've never posted content before, I'm assuming that those skills are not where we would need it to be to make a solo podcast engaging for the viewers. There's a couple of different routes that I might go down. It's like looking at the time.
How can we be quick and dirty with what we're getting? Especially if it's early on in the process, just that we can get a win, we can get them comfortable, we can get the reps in. If we really are on a time crunch, they really can't execute an idea without it being podcast style.
Then maybe we rip that, but we figure out a way to pair that with supporting visuals to make that footage more engaging for the audience so that we can kind of cross off both. Everything is just so like, it's so dependent on the circumstances and the strengths of the client in that moment, which path I would go down. Yeah, that's good.
It's kind of like if they... have this sauce you can drift that way if not you might need a little bit more of like a format dependent type of strategy on short form okay yeah that makes sense but i also do think in the beginning like the more that you can have like high i don't mean high touch points but like spending an hour with somebody on a shoot to execute in a way that might not be scalable in the very beginning is incredibly valuable just so that they can see what it looks like to be guided through the process to execute that better and we don't need to be ideal or perfectly optimized the first time sometimes we just need to get a win we need to have them see the execution see the vision to start building buy -in and then we can figure out a way to make it work more towards their strengths more towards their schedule make it more scalable afterwards but like let's just get a quick win at the beginning all right nico you've been working with a client for two months results are going good um you know steady progress uh but they come to you and say hey just want to let you know like we put together
little budget and set aside we're gonna we really want to start boosting posts we're gonna boost every single post put maybe a hundred dollars behind it and um yeah let me know if that uh if that changes anything that started last week by the way forgot to tell you about that sorry you can talk to my assistant if you uh have any questions how do you handle that situation i have nothing against putting paid behind things but definitely not boosting posts because it's up you're organic so i guess the first thing i want to know is like what is the entire i probably would have already known this was like what is the goal of this channel i found more views on my videos it looks cooler and then if that's the case then we probably should not be boosting posts because what happens is that you're just training meta to push your account more but to push it only when you put paid behind it and then what also happens is you push content to people who don't even know you they don't care about you who may have just liked that video they're not going to watch your stuff anymore after so then you just saturate your following with a bunch of people who don't care about you
this might work in the beginning but once you turn off those whatever your boosting posts it's not even the best way to push posts in the first place then yeah you're screwing your account for the future so we have situations where we know people like this who have 40 who have a couple hundred thousand followers for example they're getting a couple thousand views maybe they got big in a different niche and maybe that's one way but the other route could have been they were boosting posts in the first place without a set goal with they're simply boosting posts because they want more views I'd tell you to quit that off right now because you are not like, if the goal is views and we can do that organically, if it's just perception, then don't work with me because that's not what we're going for.
It will boost views clearly because you're putting money behind it, but you're screwing yourself over at the long run. So what I'm hearing you say is you essentially just educate the client talent on. the pros and cons, mostly cons in this situation, what it's going to look like if we keep doing this long term.
You're basically explaining the mechanics that's happening behind the view number, right? Like what's actually going on behind closed doors or whatever, right? And through education, that's the main goal.
Educate, educate, educate. And then essentially, potentially, maybe even give them an ultimatum. Say, hey.
maybe you guys can do this all you want but like that's not really what we do it's kind of pointless you know you don't even need me for that like make a shitty video and put 100 behind yeah because what will happen is they'll see the results in six or not even six months in a couple months and say hey you did not get this x result because xyz what's going on here and then we probably should have said expectations the first part if that's the case then i talked to you guys three months ago and said don't do this you guys did it's not me right so you guys You guys took a shovel, dug yourself in the hole.
It's gonna take a lot for me to get you guys out of it. And possibly there's no way out of it. You need a new channel.
So yeah, it's a weird situation. I think what you said too about like, as a creative director, you have to account for something or you have to be able to account for something. Like, is there a KPI out there that you can fully own and say, you agree and I agree that this right here.
is my signal of success and sometimes clients will try to take that signal away from you and if they have nothing to hold you to they have no signal no symbol of your success then they're gonna be like oh what's this person doing like are they actually adding value and so to have like um essentially like a number that represents you or some metric that represents you and you don't let them get in the way of it don't let anything else and it can't ask me something you can 100 % control it can't be revenue because what if the sales team sucks right it can't be views whenever this is more of a middle to bottom of funnel creator right it can't be leads whenever it's more of a top of funnel creator right you have to be really thoughtful about the metrics that you choose to like attach yourself to but once you find it If you're a good creative director and you can attach yourself to a metric that you have full control over and you don't let anything dilute it, you get really sticky because they're like, oh, I see the path.
I think it's different with content. I think content's the game that you have to do something like that. If you go into paid ads or sales, it's like, well, I made you more money, right?
Realize it's this number. We hit this number. We're good.
Then they also have the part of, well, if they put out good ads, sales team sucks, so I can't really control that, right? Whatever it is. But with content, I think a good KPI to attach yourself to, at least in the beginning, is just output.
Right. Can we get 14 posts and you hold me to that? Of course, there are steps to get there.
Are you filming these days? And if you are filming these days and you're doing your work and I'm doing my work to get you these deliverables, if it's output in this case, then that's success, right? Eventually a client will get tired of output, right?
Six months and they have to see some type of money back. But I think that's a good KPI to attach yourself in the beginning. It's like, well, the main goal here is to keep you more consistent.
You're paying me to keep you more consistent, right? And that's what we set the expectation of. that's the KPI you can grade me on for the next three months, right?
And then we can reevaluate after three months. You think three months is a good range to be held accountable to output? Yeah, yeah.
Because then you could see, because the first part is most likely going to be, they're going to be the one that's inconsistent, right? So then you can kind of put the ball on their court and say, okay, the output's not there because I'm giving you these ideas on Monday, you're not filming the stuff. Okay, so we have time to fix this.
Once that's fixed, okay, am I just not being consistent with the way I'm providing you ideas? So I think output is a great thing to tie yourself to as a creative director because one of the few things that you can control with content, it's just content. I can't guarantee leads.
And if you can knock out output, everything else is going to go up. You know, like you're going to see the views go up. You're going to see the followers go up.
You're going to see leads start to come in. It's kind of just like opening up the first part of the hose. What about, so like first three months, it's output.
Month three through six. Let's say you're a middle of funnel or bottom of funnel creator. You can't attach yourself to revenue or you have that client.
You can't attach yourself to revenue because that's outside of your control. What KPIs are you looking at for that type of creator in the next three months? I think lead flow is an easy one to do.
Okay. It also depends. If you're a YouTube heavy, you definitely can tie yourself to revenue, especially if they're selling something like use of Trackio, the great software.
Free ads. Yeah, it's not free. really close friends with you so and like you can easily track revenue through youtube stuff but like if you're just talking short form then leads is probably the easiest one too now of course you can inflate that number by just putting a many chat automation and counting every single person that responds to that as leads and that's probably an easy way to just uh just show them that you're getting more out of this and maybe they think they are but i think leads probably an easy one too especially with short form stuff because you can do the many chat thing And then maybe nail it down to qualified leads from there.
It's also a good thing to hold yourself to. Like if you can get output out, that's good. But that probably doesn't mean you're doing an amazing job, but it's the strategy part.
So what's like the next thing? Or it could also be views, right? I think leads, if their goal is revenue, it's probably smarter.
Yeah. And you got to think about like the entry point to the funnel. So do they run a webinar?
do they do a book a call with setters or is it like a vsl on the link in the bio then you you kind of track those are kind of like the three main ones some people have like funkier funnels but if it's webinar okay well you can be directly accountable to webinar signups right that's only content right maybe the email team is going to send some people but like that's mostly just short form content right especially if it's a warm webinar cold webinar is a whole separate thing but that's besides the point if it's so it's webinar signups If it's a book a call, then maybe it's mini chat opt -ins, and then you're just letting the sales setters and closers take it from there.
So your only job is to send as many qualified people into the mini chat funnel as possible. And then the third one is the VSL clicks. Okay, well, that might just be literally, you can track click -throughs, like link click -throughs on the profile.
So if we can get more views and get more people to visit the page and their quality, then they can also track. click -throughs right so those are some good ones for especially for a middle to bottom funnel creator like a me like a ben like a kabrin depending on what their funnel is tracking one of those three things and being held accountable to that and i think follower growth like quality follower growth is like the always metric b for almost any creator like quality follower growth can be great because like we want to drive the leads and then also add followers like good followers which just means you're putting out good content it's it's interesting that you said like three three months of output i've been trying to like condense that internally to like okay we're gonna work on output for like the first 30 days the reason i say output is because it's also like as a career director you're probably gonna go across platforms but you don't want to start youtube short form and x at the same time so like i tied milestones with robbie for example is if we if you can go and film
Seven of these videos every single week you put up seven formatted stuff to trial reels a day From your from your candid stuff from your recordings and then you move one of those a day So ideally it's probably on two posts a day We do that for the next 30 days then we can go to YouTube because there's also like this goals leads revenue He has a lot of new information where he would probably kill on YouTube But I don't want to get to YouTube if he can't even film me 60 -second videos That's that's usually why it's high output, but you're right three months it It kind of just depends.
But it's kind of good because we've kind of been biting ourselves in the ass. Is that right? You bite yourself in the foot?
Shoot yourself in the foot, bite your ass? We've been doing something to us. I don't bite ass.
We've been biting ourselves in the foot, shooting ourselves in the ass. Shoot yourself in the foot. Okay, we've been shooting ourselves in the...
Dude, no, it's... It's shooting yourself in the face. It's biting ass.
Something can bite you in the ass. You're not biting your own ass. Oh, so so -and -so bit me in the ass.
Came back and bit me. I'm going to bite myself in the ass. Okay, what's in with this?
Let's build a mock strategy for a mock creator. It's going to be a gardener. Okay.
Gardening niche. Yep. We're going to build a mock strategy.
Chase is going to be in charge of production flow. So basically, time management. energy management, scaling content, et cetera.
And we're gonna do this like Dungeons and Dragons style. I'm like the, I'm the person. So you can ask me questions to get more intel, okay?
So your production side, so workflow side, and then you're gonna be general strategy side on formats and platforms and ideas, okay? And here's the goal is we need to get through one week of great content. you're going to build us a workflow like what day we're going to do it how long we're going to do it how much content we're going to try to get out of it you're going to try to break through break us down the topics the formats and potential platforms that we're going to try so so i've got time and output time output and production so do we need a videographer all that right That's going to be the good stuff.
And it's going to be a little bit. So Nico's going to go first because you're going to have to execute on this. Okay.
Here's the context. I am literally the number one gardener in the world. Okay.
I supply the best vegetables to some of the best chefs in the world. I have three books out. Okay.
Three books out. I print. I make like $7 million a year.
Money is not a problem. I have a really big newsletter, but I have zero short form, long form. And I have a medium LinkedIn and Twitter presence.
Okay. But it really just came through. It's a very Tim Ferriss type of growth.
Early days during blogs, wrote some books, blew up. But an occasional podcast, but I don't have my own podcast. I guess on other people's podcasts.
I specialize in hydroponics, which is growing with no soil, only water. I am the queen of carrot growth. People know me because I have the most delicious carrot of all time.
Carrots of all time. A unique thing about me is I'm blind. I don't have, I have like all white eyes.
I don't have a pupil or whatever the color is around it. It's just all white. We can do some skits where you're like freaking people out.
Okay, so some skits. Walk into the street. some scary skits no this is an idea let's do it let's do it i'm ready all right that's the context that's the context my goal what's the main goal the main goal is in this first month uh output in views i don't really care about follow roads i just want to pump some views top of funnel creator let's go as viral as possible okay jenny hoya style let's stay away from youtube i do ig and tick tock mostly i'm not going to talk about specifics of like the i don't even know what you talk about the best asparagus carrot If you have a lot of money and you're supplying food to some of the best people in the world, I'd probably want to see a lot of, if you have someone to do this for you, maybe not day in the life, but maybe clips of you interacting.
For example, can I say you're going to Gordon Ramsay's kitchen? Yeah, I do that stuff all the time. So you are going to work with him to get me a videographer to do some of this stuff?
We're definitely giving you a videographer to follow you around. Yeah, I'm blind. I don't even know how to turn my phone on.
That's what the videographer's for. Yeah, so... Doesn't know.
Look at the camera. Okay. So, yeah.
So more... So what's this first category? This first category is like...
I'd probably say it's like day -in -the -life vlog clip type of stuff. Streaming stuff. Kind of vibe.
I would get her a videographer for sure. I'd make sure that we can get probably one to two in person. I don't want to say events, but like flying out to meet Gordon Ramsay.
Flying out to meet... uh the flay dude i don't know but i theory popular chefs in the area popular restaurants in the area just to kind of show how cool you are with this show how good you are at this um so i want to reiterate you're having you're sitting down and you're having a conversation with me that if you're serious about this because i don't do this normally i can i have the connections you're having a conversation with me if you're serious about this i need two events a week a month probably at least i would say one a week one a week You're saying this is not going to be easy.
This is kind of what we have to do if we actually want to level up like this. Yeah. Okay.
I'd say we're doing that. Okay, so we have collabs. What else?
I don't know. I think I would make that like almost your entire strategy. It's like just events, interacting with people, collaborations.
Any storytelling, docu -storytelling? Not in the first month. Any challenges where it's like day one of trying to get my carrot to explode or something like that?
Maybe we can do like some, it's just like a super entertainment heavy niche because I want to make it interesting. I would say the strategy is probably IG, TikTok, in -person events, in -person interacting with super cool people, collabs, vlogs, day in the life stuff. It's like really showing how cool your life is, making something interesting or boring that is interesting.
I would say that's like your first month's worth. And then my ideal goal is that we get like clippers behind this as well. Maybe we're doing like two, three posts a day on your page.
i think this is really good i think what you gotta figure out there has to be some form of non -lifestyle reach right because like you're really like only gonna watch me go hang out with guy fear gordon ramsay maybe if you know who i am right let's meet him do a challenge together right but what does it look like to like almost go like mr b style like i locked myself in a room with nothing but a carrot seed, soil, and a light.
Can I grow a carrot fast enough before I starve to death? That's a crazy example. But you get the idea of gamification and like more challenge driven stuff, right?
Yeah, I can see that. Do you think that plays a big part? Yeah, it'd be hard to do it like the first month.
You can do it on a smaller scale though. Yeah, maybe there is some challenge stuff, but it would still be interactive with the public. like it wouldn't be okay so i think maybe even like interview type stuff like what do you think this vegetable is or some blind tasting yeah or it's like i don't know this is super entertaining how do you think about that there is uh there's a chef on tick tock i think and he has like a street sign of like i'm a chef like ask me anything people come up to him and ask him like how to caramelize onions quicker what heat i think like something like that would be really cool little ama street style yeah there's also like plants are really popular people like propagating their own plants like how can we teach somebody how to like grow their own like green onions or something like that in their home where like you give them the gardening sauce in a way that like you can teach them how to do something that's like i don't want to say trendy but that's like kind of on the up right now i think that'd be valuable too and i think like depending on how comfortable you are with being blind like there's something where we can like gamify some sort of like ranking that's like inherently visual where people have you seen these videos where like a guy will play the first beat of a song and you have to get you have to try to guess it yeah and it'll be like he's like oh
Yeah, this is journey. This is journey. Like, let me go think and then it finds it.
Lick this vegetable. Lick this vegetable. And since I'm the goat and I'm blind, I've been blind my whole life.
It's going to be really fascinating. I'm going to know. We're going to blindfold you and we're going to put something in your hand.
You're going to have to guess it. We're going to have like six things. No, but listen, listen, listen.
After thing number three, we're going to take the blindfold off and people are going to realize that you are blind the entire time. And then we're going to keep the rest of the... yeah i like this something on the senses and some rankings that's getting good all right let's try to get let's try to get one more like signature style i see we got some gamification stuff here we got some street style in person ama ranking tasting stuff and then we got these vlogs let's try to get one more core pillar do you think recipes win i think there's anything in the recipe world i think there's definitely like a influencer type like she she there's a girl yeah well they then but yeah yeah she's probably very polarizing like blind doing this cool thing so probably like uh i'm also super hot i don't know if i said that yeah then we could super then i think some like just classic gaps i don't know i just met bobby flay today and he may realize just like how how privileged i am to be in this position but like there's probably some connection type content that i want to be
So I'm not just entertainment heavy, not just like a cool personality with this. Like I want to be able to get to know that person. I think that'd be probably pretty heavy.
The only problem is that she's blind. So like she probably can't just like prop open the phone and just like put it down somewhere. Maybe she can.
No, yeah. Yeah, I figured it out. I know how to do all this stuff.
I have Siri on my phone. Yeah, then maybe we should do something like that. I think that'd be cool.
So it's not solely entertainment. You're like building a fan base maybe. Yeah, that's good.
Definitely no podcast though. No podcast? Can we have School of Hard Knocks come interview me?
We can play Marco Polo. I don't hate it. I don't hate it.
In the garden? Yeah. In the garden?
Okay. All right. So now we have an absolute beast of a strategy.
It's a beast of a creator. Yeah, it's true too. Anything on the production side, like as you're kind of hearing this, did anything start to stew as like...
Okay. With all of the things that you're kind of saying, here's how we can maybe get, kill two birds with one stone, a little two for one. I think like we need like two hour, two hour block per day, like bare minimum.
And then probably like an entire day for some of the guests stuff. Okay. So two hours a day is what we're hitting is some of these like challenge entertainment, AMA.
Yeah. Potentially, yeah. It's just such an aggressive strategy with so many different like pillars in it that we need a pretty substantial time investment.
And I think like we definitely need a full time videographer like on location to be able to capture all of that, to work around some of the like accessibility challenges. So that's maybe like $6 ,000, $7 ,000, $8 ,000 around there. Okay.
And then two hours a day. That's not a problem. What are we going to do for editing?
I think ideally we have a videographer that can edit some of the stuff. Some of the luxury stuff? Yeah, but we're also going to have to have some clippers, like Nico mentioned, to splash up, especially the interview.
I'd have one full -time videographer and one full -time editor. You need a full -time editor? So he can send stuff while he's on.
He uploads stuff every two hours on the dot. It's overseas? No, in -state.
In -state? Yeah. so that's like another wi -fi speed's crucial six to eight thousand so you're thinking you're thinking um the speed to get content out is the win yeah do you agree with that i do agree with that i think like this is gonna be a ton of volume yeah yeah yeah and like If you don't have the speed, you're going to get a week's worth of footage that's not going to be ready to put out for a month, and it's going to be over with.
So let's say the clippers, we're going to pay them $1 ,000 for every million views. Like $100 for every million views? I feel like we're going to rip views.
But we also don't want to just lose. We want to make sure we're paying the competitor. What's average clipper?
I'm pretty sure it's average clipper. It's like $100 for a million views.
That seems low. It does. Well, like, you think Brez is putting up like 300 million views?
No, he puts on a cap. And he's also gotten flamed for not paying out. Yeah, I think it's like maybe 200.
This girl's in a rip view. She's going to get like 100 million views a month. We can go 500.
I think we can go 500. 500 per milli. So that means, let's say we're going to actually shoot for 100 million.
That's 50 ,000 in Clippers a month. So I'm saying that's why it's usually like How much fifty thousand per month? Yeah for for basically a hundred mil on the clipping if that's what we're gonna hopefully get I Think that's I think that's pretty normal Like I know that Some of like some of those guys are paying Yeah, I know like a neon is like like the big streamers They're paying their guys out a lot, but they also have a shit ton of them, right?
They like ten thousand. Yeah, it's like any communities and stuff like that. Yeah So yeah, yeah, 500, maybe even like 250.
Cause they're mostly - We also don't want to lose them though. Cause they'll go to just the best. Our Clippers will just go to whoever pays the most.
Yeah, I still don't know what the average is. All right, well, we'll just, we'll put, let's just meet in the middle. We'll say 35 grand for Clippers a month.
Anything outside of this, we're up to 50 ,000 total dollars. And if I'm Tim, if I'm actually that - big like i'm down to probably chill around here i'm maybe down to give maybe like 20 to 30 more but the travel i'm kind of thinking is like going to turn into a lot but let's put thoughts back to you anything else for scaling the content that we have the two hour time block in the day anything else i think first month this is it yeah damn this would be a damn good first month great it's a crazy first one this would be some this would go hard This would go hard.
All right. Any last questions for our girl?
And you're probably getting a return on investment on this. Yeah. I hope.
Even like immediately. So let's say a hundred million views. She gets one contract with one restaurant.
I think this girl could do probably 2 .5 early and then no plateau because you'll have a little bit, but this would end up being an eight figure company, like 10 mil. Yeah. 10 mil and you're investing less than 500k into it or just over 500k yeah all right if you're blind extremely hot one of the best gardeners in the world please hit us up we'll get you taken care of all right that's it
The Hook
The bait, then the rug-pull.
Three content strategists sit down at a bare table with a notepad and an energy drink each and, for the next hour, just talk shop: what's working for their actual clients right now, and why.
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A coach explains why unscripted, unedited talking-to-camera video isn't just easier to make. It closes the gap between the persona that sells and the person who actually shows up.
A creator with 1.7 million Instagram followers throws out bio-wording, hashtags, and 'post to your friends first' advice in favor of an AI-fed research system built from a brand strategy document and a saved swipe file.
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