Modern Creator
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George Janko · YouTube

Why Most People Will Never Be Rich (Part 2)

A two-and-a-half hour conversation where a comedian gets his whole business diagnosed in real time — and the diagnosis keeps turning into a sermon.

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Duration
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Interview
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Big Idea

The argument in one line.

The fastest way to make better decisions in business and in life is to stop judging people and yourself by intentions and start judging only by the observable output, because intentions are unknowable and outputs are not.

Who This Is For

Read if. Skip if.

READ IF YOU ARE…
  • A first-time founder who keeps almost-starting a business but stalls because you fear looking like a failure to friends and family.
  • Someone running a small business who is exhausted because you keep multiple half-built ventures alive at once and none of them is fully funded.
  • A founder who keeps the loyal-but-unproductive teammate and resents the productive one, because you grade people on whether their heart is in the right place.
  • Anyone who burns hot on anger and wants to know whether that fuel is helping or quietly costing them.
  • A person trying to repair a marriage or a relationship with a parent who finds vague words like love, respect, and forgiveness impossible to act on.
SKIP IF…
  • You want tactical step-by-step playbooks like ad scripts or funnel builds — this is a worldview conversation, not a how-to.
  • You are uninterested in faith — roughly the back half threads Christianity, anger, and forgiveness through every business point.
TL;DR

The full version, fast.

Most people never get rich because they never start, they expect results far faster and with far less volume than reality requires, and once they do start they split focus across too many half-built ventures. Hormozi's core fix is to delete the word intention from business: you cannot know why anyone does anything, so judge only the output. That single move makes hiring, firing, anger, and even marriage simpler, because you stop watering trees that bear no fruit and stop demanding that people share your rare, hard-won context. Commitment is the elimination of alternatives, so the highest-return move is usually to feed the one thing already working rather than chase a new one.

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Voices

Who's talking.

00:00hostGeorge Janko
00:00guestAlex Hormozi
Chapters

Where the time goes.

00:00 – 08:42

01 · Why most people never start

Fear of rejection and judgment keeps people building businesses in their minds, never in reality; those who start underestimate volume.

08:42 – 20:44

02 · Judge the output, not the heart

George's habit of keeping loyal-but-unproductive people gets reframed: erase intention, judge only fruit.

20:44 – 30:19

03 · Three questions and hiring as skills

Logic, evidence, utility as a truth filter; every trait like charisma is really a teachable behavior set, so hire for smallest skill deficiency.

30:19 – 45:39

04 · Skool, proof-first, and bad coaches

Proof is the pudding; brands grow on proof first; bad teachers are incompetent, not evil.

45:39 – 56:38

05 · Focus is the elimination of alternatives

Unfocus is the third failure mode; feed the winner, starve the losers; the woman-in-the-red-dress distraction.

56:38 – 1:08:36

06 · Following your passion is a trap

Passions change, the passion is a tiny slice of the workday, monetizing can ruin it; do your passion, make money where the market pays.

1:08:36 – 1:15:55

07 · Persuasion vs manipulation

The dividing line is truth, not intent: true statements that change behavior are persuasion, false ones are manipulation.

1:15:55 – 1:30:43

08 · Anger, carrots and sticks

Anger is reinforced because it works; it is dirty fuel and the hardest emotion to drop; act as if to break the loop.

1:30:43 – 1:47:20

09 · Masculinity, the church, and judgment

A detour on softened modern Christianity and the difference between criticism and insult.

1:47:20 – 2:07:19

10 · The $10M mistake and rare sense

Hormozi takes the blame for a teammate's costly error: you cannot hold someone to rare sense you never taught them.

2:07:19 – 2:16:40

11 · Killing the ego and sitting in suffering

Ego dies by raising regard for others; some problems are pure suffering with no action to take.

2:16:40 – 2:28:00

12 · Losing everything with Leila

The origin story: two wipeouts, a DUI, a drained account, and a partner who believed in him under the bridge.

Atomic Insights

Lines worth screenshotting.

  • Most people spend more time working on their business in their mind than in reality, which is why they never actually start.
  • Fear of rejection from strangers and fear of judgment from people you know are the two walls that stop most businesses before they begin.
  • People dramatically underestimate volume: a mentor tested 1,500 flyers at a time and ran 150,000 a month while a struggling owner tried 300 once and quit.
  • Hormozi posts over a thousand times a week across all platforms, and roughly 90% of that is captured content from work he already does, not manufactured shoots.
  • Build a self-licking ice cream cone: engineer the delivery of your product so it generates the content that brings you the next customer.
  • Erase the word intention from business and judge people only by output — if a tree bears no fruit, watering it harder just gives you a barren farm.
  • Every character trait people hire for, like charisma, is really just a set of teachable behaviors, so hire for the smallest skill deficiency you have to close.
  • Commitment is the elimination of alternatives, and the most focused entrepreneurs say no to things they know they could crush.
  • You never overexpand, you under-talent: three mediocre businesses usually mean you could not afford the good people to run even one.
  • Time in the market beats timing the market — year five of your current business almost always beats year one of a new one, so compare honestly.
  • Following your passion is bad advice because passions change, the passion is a tiny fraction of the actual workday, and monetizing it can ruin it.
  • State the facts and tell the truth; if the truth is not compelling, go make the truth compelling by changing reality, not by deceiving.
  • Persuasion is changing behavior with true statements; manipulation is changing behavior with false ones — the difference is truth, not intent.
  • Anger is reinforced because it both gets you what you want and pushes bad things away, which is exactly why it is the hardest emotion to give up.
  • A criticism states a discrepancy between actual and desired; an insult adds a judgment of the person — most conflict is confusing the two.
  • We attribute to malice what is almost always incompetence, and incompetence is just a missing skill nobody bothered to teach.
  • Forgiveness is the ability to return to baseline behavior as if the transgression had not happened, and it gets harder with each negative interaction.
  • Champions have short memories: beating yourself up only matters if it raises the odds you behave better next time, otherwise it is pointless.
  • Humility is not lowering your regard for yourself, it is raising your regard for others.
  • A relationship needs moats — irreplaceable shared history — because there will always be reasons to leave, so you need more reasons to stay.
Takeaway

Judge the output, not the heart.

WHAT TO LEARN

The single rule that simplifies hiring, firing, focus, anger, and even marriage is to stop guessing at intentions you can never know and act only on the results you can actually see.

01Why most people never start
  • You start a business by letting people know about your thing and getting them to pay for it — the fear of rejection and judgment is what stops most people, not the difficulty.
  • Underestimating volume is fatal: a real test is 1,500 attempts, not 300, and consistency is measured in years, not weeks.
02Judge the output, not the heart
  • Stop grading people by whether their heart is in the right place; water trees that bear no fruit and you end up with a barren farm no matter how hard they try.
03Three questions and hiring as skills
  • Every trait you admire, like charisma, is a teachable set of behaviors, so hire for the smallest skill gap and train the rest.
05Focus is the elimination of alternatives
  • Commitment is the elimination of alternatives — feed the one business that is working instead of starving it to fund a shiny new one.
  • Compare a new venture honestly: year one of the new thing competes with year five of your current thing once you account for compounding focus.
06Following your passion is a trap
  • Following your passion is weak advice because passions change and become a small slice of the actual work; do the passion, make money where the market pays.
07Persuasion vs manipulation
  • Persuasion and manipulation differ by truth, not intention — state the facts, and if the facts are not compelling, change reality so they are.
08Anger, carrots and sticks
  • Anger feels like a superpower because it works, which is exactly why it is the hardest emotion to drop; you can be angry and still choose not to act on it.
09Masculinity, the church, and judgment
  • Distinguish criticism from insult: stating a gap between actual and desired is feedback, adding a verdict on the person is an attack.
10The $10M mistake and rare sense
  • Most failures are incompetence, not malice — you cannot hold someone to rare sense you never taught them, so own the gaps you created.
12Losing everything with Leila
  • Translate vague words like love and respect into a concrete list of behaviors, and most relationship problems become a short, solvable checklist.
Glossary

Terms worth knowing.

Self-licking ice cream cone
A business engineered so that delivering its product or service automatically produces the marketing content that attracts the next customer, creating a self-sustaining loop with little added founder time.
Capture vs manufacture
Two ways to make content: manufacture means staging a production from scratch with lights and crew, while capture means recording something you were already going to do and repurposing it across formats.
Smallest skill deficiency hiring
Hiring the candidate who is missing the least amount of teachable skill for the role, so the business spends the fewest resources getting them competent.
Mutant business
One of several half-built ventures an owner keeps alive at once, each loosely feeding the others in a way that only works in the founder's head and never in reality.
Commitment as elimination of alternatives
Hormozi's definition of focus and commitment: deliberately removing other options so all resources flow to the one thing you chose.
Woman in the red dress
A metaphor from The Matrix Hormozi uses for any attractive distraction that pulls your attention off the main goal and turns out to be a threat in disguise.
Carrots and sticks
The two fundamental levers for changing behavior: rewarding a desired action (carrot) or punishing the failure to take it (stick).
Relationship moat
Borrowed from the business idea of a competitive moat: an irreplaceable element of a relationship, usually shared history during the hard years, that makes the bond hard to assail.
Resources

Things they pointed at.

1:48:20productSkool ↗
1:50:00channelThe Founders Podcast (David Senra)
2:30:00bookAlbert Ellis (books on anger)
3:56:40personClayton Christensen (humility quote)
3:36:40personBlaise Pascal — to understand is to forgive
50:00productHeart of David merch ↗
57:21productGrand Canyon University (sponsor) ↗
Quotables

Lines you could clip.

01:30
“Most people spend more time working on their business in their mind than in reality.”
Tight, universal, no setup needed.→ TikTok hook↗ Tweet quote
06:00
“Hard to know anything after 300. Typically we keep doing test sizes of about 1,500 until we get something to work, and then we do 3,000 a day.”
Concrete numbers that reframe what volume means.→ IG reel cold open↗ Tweet quote
19:40
“If you continue to water trees that bear no fruit, you have a barren farm. The tree is trying really hard to grow fruit — you're still gonna go hungry.”
Vivid metaphor that lands the whole intention-vs-output thesis.→ IG reel cold open↗ Tweet quote
21:00
“I care zero about intention. I just care about what occurs as a result.”
Blunt, controversial, defines the episode.→ TikTok hook↗ Tweet quote
46:00
“I define commitment as the elimination of alternatives.”
Clean reframe, fits on a card.→ newsletter pull-quote↗ Tweet quote
48:20
“You never really overexpand. You just under-talent.”
Counterintuitive one-liner about why small businesses fail.→ TikTok hook↗ Tweet quote
55:00
“Time in the market beats timing the market — you just need enough time under the bar.”
Memorable mashup of investing and lifting language.→ newsletter pull-quote↗ Tweet quote
1:10:00
“State the facts and tell the truth. And if the truth isn't compelling, make the truth compelling — as in change reality.”
The marketing principle in two sentences.→ IG reel cold open↗ Tweet quote
2:21:40
“Feedback is fuel.”
Three-word company value, instantly shareable.→ newsletter pull-quote↗ Tweet quote
3:56:40
“Humility isn't decreasing your regard for oneself, but increasing your regard for others.”
Quotable redefinition attributed to a Harvard professor.→ newsletter pull-quote↗ Tweet quote
4:56:00
“There's always reasons to leave a relationship. You just have to have more reasons to stay.”
Leila's line, emotional payoff of the origin story.→ TikTok hook↗ Tweet quote
Topic Map

Where the conversation goes.

00:00 – 08:42denseWhy people never start a business
05:00 – 11:40denseVolume and consistency
21:40 – 33:20denseIntention vs output as a judging metric
45:00 – 56:40denseHiring as skill stacks
1:06:40 – 1:30:00denseFocus and committing to one business
1:30:00 – 1:50:00steadyFollowing your passion myth
1:50:00 – 2:03:20densePersuasion, manipulation, and truth in marketing
2:16:40 – 2:40:00steadyAnger as fuel and behavior change
2:40:00 – 3:03:20steadyFaith, masculinity, and the church
3:20:00 – 3:50:00denseMarriage, communication, and cheat codes
3:50:00 – 4:16:40steadyEgo, suffering, and forgiveness
4:16:40 – 4:40:00steadyRelationship with his father
4:40:00 – 4:56:00denseLosing everything with Leila
The Script

Word for word.

Read-along

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metaphoranalogystory
00:00Now I'm excited, dude. Now I'm coming as a student, and I'm I'm pumped. Alright, dude.
00:04Okay. My one question and by the way, all these questions I'm be asking you are gonna be for the audience so people can know, but mostly kinda for me. I'm I wanna learn from you.
00:12Yeah. What do you think is the number one thing of people's shortcomings when it comes to building their business? Like, you've noticed a pattern with men.
00:20You're like, this this is like a reoccurring thing. What would you feel is the most common thing that hinders a man's growth in his business?
00:29Well, if you think about it just from a like what they're not doing versus what they're doing perspective, which I think is the easiest way to think about it, it starts with them not doing anything. So there's probably a number of reasons they're not doing anything, but they're afraid, typically.
00:43They're afraid of looking stupid, like looking like a like a pick me version for a guy of, like, I'm hustling now. Oh, you started a business. And their friends and family don't support it because, by definition, if they haven't succeeded yet, they've never succeeded.
00:58And so there's no reason for people to have tremendous confidence in the fact that they're succeeding because everyone's told that business is hard. And so they're afraid of looking like a failure, and so for that reason, they continue to delay. And they stay in this period of wanting to be a business owner, wanting to start a business, and never actually starting a business.
01:15For the people who have begun trying to do business, they'd understand they don't understand the how business works. But at the most basic level, you let someone know about the stuff that you do to help them and that's either delivered through a product or a service of some kind and then you get them to give you money to do it.
01:35It's really not that difficult. And so if you can invite people to a party, you can let people know about your stuff. And if they respond back that they are interested and then you get them to give you money, you own a business.
01:44It's not that hard. But because of the fear of rejection from the people that they would reach out to and because of fear of judgment from the people that they do know, so fear of rejection from strangers, fear of judgment from people they know, they choose to do neither.
01:58And so, most people spend more time working on their business in their mind than in reality. And so this is why I'm so grounded in like, this is like, just do this. Like, ignore the other stuff.
02:10Just let people know about your thing. And there's a lot ways you can do that. I'm gonna break that down.
02:16And then if they have started to take some action, typically they're not consistent enough and their expectations on speed and volume are too short for speed and too little for volume.
02:29And so they're like, well, I reached out to five people and no one was interested. And I was like, okay.
02:34And I I I have a story of like where I where this belief was broken for me, which was I I had started a business and I had a gym and I had a mentor at the time and he I wanted to get more customers and he said, hey. He was really successful and he said, I do flyers.
02:48That's how I get customers. And I was like, okay. I'll do flyers.
02:51And I I ran a campaign. I put, I think, 300 flyers out on cars.
02:59And I waited and then the phone rang and one guy called and said, hey, think you danked my Mercedes. When I and I was like, oh and I hung up the phone.
03:05And that was that was the only call that I got from those flyers. And so then I saw him a week later or called him a week later and we talked. And he was like, oh, by the way, how the you know, how the flyers go?
03:16And I was like, oh, I'm gonna tell him exactly how this went. And I was like, nothing, dude. They didn't work at all.
03:23And he was like, oh. And he didn't even seem like bothered by it. He was like, He's like, what was your test size?
03:28And I was like, He was like, your test size. And I was like, oh.
03:35I mean, I sent 300 out. Like, duh. And he was like, oh, yeah.
03:40He's like, hard to know anything after 300. He's like, typically, we'll keep doing test sizes of about 1,500 until we get something to work.
03:47He's like, and then we do 3,000 a day every day.
03:51And it was a great understanding for me that I had done 300 in a month and he was doing a 150,000 in a month. And so in a very real way, people dramatically underestimate the amount of volume it takes.
04:02And it happens at all levels. Like, was talking to a friend of mine, very successful. Very, very he's $2,000,000,000 exits, very successful.
04:09And he was like, wanna get into personal brand. I wanna build a personal brand. And he's like, mine's not really growing the way yours is.
04:14Like, what do I like, am I doing wrong? And so I, you know, I pulled up his Instagram, pulled up mine and I was like, well, you know, how many how many Instagram posts do you make in a day a week?
04:24Or sorry, a day. He's like, oh, I'm doing one a day. I was like, okay.
04:27What about other platforms? He was like, no. I mean, I'm I'm focused on Instagram.
04:30And I like, okay.
04:33I posted at the time, I was like, I posted 450 times last week. And he was like What?
04:38Yeah. Not on Instagram, but across all channels. Still gross.
04:42We're over a thousand a week. You know how how many platforms You know what we feel like when we threw out the 300 flyers.
04:48Oh.
04:49Yeah. Okay. We're doing pretty well throwing 300 flyers, dude.
04:52Across how many platform? Yeah. A thousand a week is probably what we're at now.
04:57Dang, dude.
04:58And so they don't do enough. They think they're doing a lot. They they're me with 300 flies in their hands being like, pounding their face, being like, know, why isn't this and then they're like, you're the problem.
05:09You gave me bad advice. Right? Whoever they got it from and then they they cast stones at that person.
05:15Or they're like, it doesn't work. The universe is out to to get me. Or they are doing the call it a 100 posts a day.
05:23They're doing the right amount of volume, but they do it for a week. And then they're like, well, bro, I'm not I'm not George. So what what the hell?
05:33I'm not I'm not famous yet. It's like, yeah. He had been known in a week.
05:37How long you how long you've making content? Twelve years. Twelve years.
05:42It's like, dude, just keep it up. Twelve more years.
05:45Dude, it's funny you say that because twelve years and I felt like I my career started three years ago. Right. It takes a long time to learn.
05:51No. It takes majority of it was just the foundations.
05:55Yeah. Like then building up is important, but the foundations, if it's weak, it's not gonna be good. Mhmm.
05:59I have this issue Speed and volume. Real often. Go, please.
06:02Oh, no. It's okay. So you're saying
06:05so you're you're posting a lot. Right? But what about quality versus quantity?
06:09Like, where do you draw the line? How are you posting so much? I believe in qualium.
06:14Qualium? Yeah. Quality volume.
06:16Okay.
06:17And what exactly are you posting of, like, what are like, what are these hundreds of posts about some same thing?
06:23So I think about content as manufacturing or capturing. It's either manufacture or capture.
06:29And so if you're manufacturing, like, is manufactured and that, like, we're, you know, we're flying in, we're gonna put on a production, we're gonna have sound, lights, all that stuff. We're making this. Capturing is like, this is already occurring.
06:40We were just now capturing it and displaying it on a medium that allows more people to see it. And so I would say 90% of that volume is capture, not manufacture.
06:49And so from a time perspective, it's significantly more time on my team. Mhmm. It's no added time for me.
06:56And so if I so we have seminars that we hold here for business owners that lead into our consulting services at at our headquarters. And if I go downstairs and I do a q and a, that's part of the delivery of that of that experience.
07:12Right? And if I answer questions there, then they can take all of those clips and each one of those clips can be turned into like, it's maybe there's one q and a that's ten minutes.
07:21It's like, great. That's a mid on the highlight channel. And then that can be two or three shorts.
07:26And those two or three shorts can each be turned into multiple carousels. And the transcript that can be turned into LinkedIns. And that can be turned into threads and tweets.
07:33And all of that, you know, a large percentage that we've been able to automate with with the AI stuff that we do. But before that, it was just people manually just fucking hammering. But it's just how can I do what I already do and capture and repurpose that to a large degree?
07:48And so I'm a big believer in something I call the self licking ice cream cone. But like, how can you this is obviously from a pure business perspective. But like, how can I engineer a business that in the delivery of my goods and services, I can create the advertising content or collateral that can then get me more customers?
08:03And so if you can create that loop, then it's like, get customers yourself. Who get who get me content, who then get me more customers, who get me content, and then it just goes and and it spins and spins and stuff. An ecosystem.
08:12Yeah. And it lives on its own. 100%.
08:13And then it's also yeah. It's also way less dependent on the founder as well.
08:18Am am I too emotional when it comes to a business? Because there's two things that I keep I I noticed with myself. Um, one is I I it sounds pompous, but it's I feel like people take my kindness for granted.
08:31Mhmm. And so, like, I I I like to be the boss, but I also like to be the older brother, like Mhmm. To help and, like, coach in life.
08:39And I feel like I get taken advantage of when it comes in the business aspect of things. And then my other one is I keep I feel like I'm in a circle with trying to find the right teammates and I'm not finding the right teammates.
08:54Is this because of me or is it because my output? Like, what what is it that would make a man not successful in this type of pattern? So, say, those are two different things Yeah.
09:04Right off the bat. Both off my emotions. Yeah.
09:06You the original question you asked was, am I too emotional? Yeah. I would say, if it interferes with your goals in terms of how that emotion translates to behavior, then I'd say, yeah.
09:14Well, I'll give you an example. Yeah. There's two agents that are unbelievable.
09:18Like, they they represent the greatest in the field. They were really, really excited about me. Mhmm.
09:24Um, but I had 19 shows in America Mhmm. And didn't show up to one of them.
09:29Right. So my brain was like, well, if they can't make time aside in the city that they live in, why would I feel like behind the scenes, they would care about me?
09:39So I chose not to be with them. This is so much fun. So If he smiled at me and I knew I was gonna get worked.
09:45Wish I brought a pencil.
09:47If if if if you knew, if you found out that they were working around the clock trying to get you deals while you were in town and it was a massive deal Yeah.
09:59Would you be okay with them missing your thing?
10:02If they were working for me behind the scenes? Yeah. They were like working And that's why they didn't show up?
10:06Yes. Okay.
10:09They don't show up either way. So it changes nothing about reality. It's only the narrative that we attach to it.
10:16Now, I'll finish the thought which is just that I only care about the output. And so if the agent is good, then they will bear fruit.
10:28Yeah. Whether he's able to do it with one phone call and he's on a vacation the other three hundred sixty four days a year or not? Would I rather have somebody who has good intentions who ends up destroying me or somebody who has bad intentions ends up making me?
10:43Which would I rather have? I'd rather have someone who has bad intentions and ends ends up making me.
10:48Right? I think I'm I'm I'm I think I am immature in that sense. I I think I take things so personally because I don't know how to separate my brand and me.
10:58I think you care about intention.
11:00Yeah. I care zero about intention. Like, I'll I'll give you a story that might make this real.
11:07So a friend of mine, in the fitness space, uh, was in a competition, judge wasn't counting his reps, told the judge he was gonna kill him in the moment.
11:15Obviously, he wasn't. He was like, I'm gonna fucking kill you. Like, he's like, count my reps.
11:19Right? And he ended up getting like, you know, it became the black sheep of the the the whole space. Him getting becoming the black sheep of the whole space and that judge acting the way they did ended up making his career and gave him this gigantic overnight.
11:35He got like a 100,000 followers. He went from nothing to a 100,000 and then he was able to start a business off that because he was actually a very good competitor. And so I say this because, like, I I used to spend a lot of cycles, and this is not me in any way saying in any way self aggrandizing.
11:50I'm just saying this is useful for me. Use it if you want. Yeah.
11:53Never I never get offended by it, bro.
11:57We don't know someone's intentions. What do you mean by that? We have no idea.
12:01No. No. No.
12:01I was like, dude, I will I will always answer that question. People will think, like like, they throw it back at me. It's like, I will happily explain what I mean.
12:07No. No. I was just pretending like I was offended.
12:09Yeah. So we we never know why someone does what they do because they often don't know why they do what they do. How many people go and take action all the time every day?
12:17And they're like, why'd you do You're like, you don't know. And so then we somehow try and guess why someone else did something and then make a judgment on our actions towards that person because of something that they don't even know about themselves. Mhmm.
12:28I just care about what occurs as a result. So if you work with this agent and fruit come from it, judge the fruit. If you work for six months and I haven't seen anything, I haven't seen anything.
12:40If the guy says, dude, I've been working around the clock and you unless you have evidence of him working around the clock, killing himself to try and get your deal gets you nothing. Do you still keep him? Bro, I have.
12:49Right. And so it's just it makes it it makes it much easier. Dude,
12:53I you just ripped my heart out your stomach. I thought I would be a bad person if I didn't at least look at where their heart posture was pointed towards.
13:03That's a lot of words. Heart posture pointing towards. It's like, what does that mean?
13:07You know what I mean? Like, think about it. Like, I see like, I'm gonna use Logan, not not using you as a real example.
13:12This is just like a fake example. Being used. If he's recording
13:16if he's recording me. How did his fruit taste? His
13:21I'm never using that for a Oh, man. And by the way, you're gonna have a bone to pig with Jesus. Oh, you don't like my terms, Don't believe in me.
13:29Don't believe in my words. I think what my problem is is you're right, dude. I care too much about the like in my brain, if he was holding the camera and he wasn't doing a good job, but I saw him sweating and trying, in my brain, I'll be like, it's okay.
13:42He's trying. His heart is at least there. Mhmm.
13:44But I will also measure the guy who's not here. His heart's not here, but his work is there. I get rid of that guy and I keep this guy.
13:53So I'm in a really bad place. Yeah. And then you add up all the outputs and you get what you have.
13:57This is why I'm burnt out. Yeah.
14:00You have no hope because you're judging people on the wrong metric. To be fair, judging people on the on the wrong metric on the wrong metric for business. You have other metrics.
14:08You have conflicting priorities right now. And so I think that you need do whatever you want.
14:13If I were in a similar position, I would erase the word intention from my vocabulary within the context of business and think of things in terms of return on assets resources.
14:26And so fundamentally, the best entrepreneurs in the world are the best allocators of resources. They have time, money, energy, effort, etcetera, very limited.
14:33Compared to all the resources in the world, what we have access to is nothing. It's so small. And so how how good we are of stewards, to use a a biblical, you know, analogy, how good we are of stewards is how how much we can multiply with what we're given.
14:47Right? And so if you continue to water trees that bear no fruit, you have a barren farm.
14:58And you're like, but the tree is trying really hard to grow fruit. It's like, you're still gonna go hungry.
15:03Dude, that was deep. I needed to hear that, man. I I I I didn't I don't know why I didn't expect you to go that direction.
15:09Like, I I really didn't see it that, like, from that. Everyone is trainable and this is my perspective on life, is one of the I'll call it the difficulties of my worldview is that I genuinely believe anyone can learn to do anything.
15:21I do, however, also maintain the belief that it is not worth it for me to do that. So I believe that somebody who's incredibly dumb can, with enough training and enough effort become a surgeon.
15:37I really believe that. However, I do not think it is worth my time to do that.
15:43And this is basic because in school, are requisites, there are requirements. You have to pass the first grade to get to the second grade.
15:50Right? And so it's not that they're they're good or bad, whether they like, is a teacher bad for failing a student? No.
15:57You don't meet the requirements. It would be unkind, not nice.
16:00It'd be unkind to move them on because they're not ready. It doesn't put them as in a in a position to succeed long term.
16:06So I think if you care like, to to use words that you might enjoy better, if you truly care about the person, then you have to allow them the moment of momentary feedback from reality that they are not good enough because otherwise, you're saying that they're too weak. You're emasculating if the guy emasculating the person.
16:23You're saying you're too weak to handle the truth. It's just you're not that good. That said, here are the behaviors, here are the things that you could do to hold the camera better and I will show you how to do it.
16:34If the requirement of the job was that they already knew how to hold the camera, then either you hired someone who was inept or they lied on the way in.
16:43And if and oftentimes it's in the middle, which is that you didn't describe it with enough detail and you made a guess and maybe the guess was wrong. And then at that point, you have the decision whether do I do I wanna train this person up or do I wanna do I wanna buy or build? Do I wanna buy somebody else or do I wanna build this person up?
16:56And it's purely a question of return on resources. And so when hiring, we always wanna hire for the the smallest skilled efficiency.
17:04And so oftentimes, you've probably heard like, is it attitude or aptitude? Right? You hire for attitude, fire for you know, you've I've have you heard any of these statements?
17:10I'm shaking my head, but no. Okay. So if you hire for attitude, it's like hiring for character traits and like I hire for their heart.
17:17Right? Bigamorphous words Yeah. Rather than aptitude, their skills, what they're good at.
17:20Yeah. Right? Hire for attitude.
17:23I see all of this as skills, just like basketball. And so if I say, hey, I need you to be more charismatic. If I say that to somebody, let's say a salesperson that's working for me, I need you to be more charismatic.
17:35He can't do anything with that. Yeah. Yeah.
17:37Right. Yeah. He's either got it or you don't.
17:39What does cares what does charisma mean? I would have to say, I need you to talk louder. And when you walk into a room, I need you to see everyone and say their names.
17:48And I want you to walk up to everyone, shake their hands, look at them in the eyes, repeat the last few words they say to you back to them before stating your next sentence. Okay? And when they're talking, I need you to nod your head and and when nod their head when when you're talking.
18:02Right? So there's a list of behaviors that I might say and then be like, do that. And then all of a sudden, might describe the guy as warm and charismatic.
18:09And so by by saying that, then I'm making the point that the character traits that we seek out are really just behavior sets. Now, if someone just comes in with, let's just say, an amalgamation, a big bucket of skills.
18:22They have a bucket like, skill number one, shake hands. Skill number two, say hello. Being real, like breaking it down to the most basic level.
18:27This is gigantic bucket of skills that they've learned. We wanna hire the person who has the smallest net skill deficiency. So if I'm looking for an AI researcher, I might be willing to deal with somebody who doesn't have as much charisma and be willing to train the small amount of charisma because the amount it would take me to train the AI researcher skill or whatever would be significantly more than the effort and resource it would take me to train the charisma and inter interpersonal stuff.
18:53If I'm hiring a cashiarist at a frozen yogurt shop, teaching someone to use the cash register might take five minutes. And teaching someone to mop the floor, maybe another five.
19:02And so I could probably train that entire person in an hour or two. And so it makes much more sense for me to hire for the character traits, the bucket of skills around social dynamics and social behavior than it does for me to hire out, oh, past experience working in cash register. And so fundamentally, when we're hiring, we wanna hire for the small skilled efficiency so that they have the highest likelihood of being able to succeed with the job and uses up the smallest amount of resources from the business in order to get them to the level they need to to succeed.
19:28Hey. What's up, guys? I wanted to give you guys the good news.
19:31The heartofdavid.co
19:32is now out and available. I know a lot of you guys have been hitting me up being like, bro, when is it coming out? I'm sorry it took so long.
19:38I just wanted to make sure that what I dropped is very special for you guys. So check it out. Hit the link in my description or go to theheartofdavid.co and enjoy your merch today.
19:47Did you learn this through like going through it or did you read books and study this or like, how did you go how did you manage to to be so equipped at that?
19:58I I I think it's thank you, first off. But I think it's in an effort to define the world around me in terms I could observe.
20:07Like, I hear these things like be, do, have. And I was like, is that true?
20:11And so the three the three questions, I've I've two things written on my wall permanently inside of my office. One is my good day formula, which is workout with friends, eat with friends, write something.
20:23When I do those things, I have a good day.
20:26And today, I've done two of them, so I'm thrilled. And I all I have to do is write something down and I'm good to go. On the other the other little threesome that I have calm down, world.
20:38So many clips. Is
20:40is is three questions, which is logic, what does that mean? Evidence, how do you know that?
20:47And utility, why does that matter? And so when people present with things or like, we do have, I'm like, well, what does that mean? And then someone has a response, how do you know that?
20:57And then if they finally answer and they have some evidence for why they know that, I'm like, okay. And why why does that matter? And so this allows you to sift through a lot of the noise of the world to try and get to the bare truth.
21:08And for me, the truth is the things that I can observe because it's the only world that I happen to live in. And so I just try to describe the world in that way. And when I see these isms like higher for aptitude, not attitude, I was like, okay.
21:19I'm sure there's some truth to this, but let me dig into it. It turns out for me, there isn't. It's just that in some situations, in many, especially for a small business that has, I'll call a low skilled job, which are the majority of jobs, it makes more sense to hire for somebody who already has these skills.
21:35We just don't call them skills, we call them traits. But if you teach a child to behave a certain way, it's a skill. And if they can learn it, you can teach it.
21:44It's just a question of whether it's worth the business's resources, which is again why we have requirements on all job postings, is you must have four years of Excel, blah blah blah blah blah, because we expect that I don't have to teach you to read. I can.
21:57It's not worth it. Do you hand train or did you train somebody to train? Do I train?
22:04I train publicly via my content. Oh, I know.
22:08I know this. I I love to get into that, but I'm talking about like here. Yeah.
22:12Like, since you're doing the training for other companies Uh-huh. Do you also train inside your house or did you train somebody to be like you and train all these other people?
22:21Yeah. Training the trainer is is for sure a role of delegation. Like, because the the skill of teaching is another skill.
22:27Yeah.
22:28I like to get into school. Yeah. When did you come up with that concept and how is it going?
22:34So I didn't come up with it.
22:36Sam is the is the the primary founder, if you will. Um, Daniel and I have the title of cofounder. Daniel is the CTO.
22:45Um, and I have no official role, but I I would call myself chief promoter. But the idea was I think pretty simple.
22:56There's a couple of things. Well, number one is that we believe that humans will want more community, not less in the future. So that's one assumption, and that has continued to be more and more true.
23:05Number two is that the world of education specifically, but media in general is there's a there's a trust crisis.
23:14No one knows who to trust. And so if we could create a platform that allowed people to teach the things they love with other people who like that stuff, we would, one, make the world a better place.
23:26But two, over time, if we have enough of those people, we could become a trusted source for education, Which is how do I know this guy is actually going to teach me really well? Well, if I can look at his reviews and there's hundreds of other people who learn from this person, then it's a high likelihood.
23:40Like imagine an Amazon that had no reviews. Imagine how blind you would feel trying to buy stuff. That is how most of the world right now tries to buy education that is not called the formal education path beyond called the free stuff that you can get online for YouTube and whatever.
23:55And so we thought that if we brought community to more people and we were able to take a fragmented Internet and put these little ponds together where people can find people like them and do things that they're passionate about, that we would make the world a better place and people would be able to earn an income teaching things they love to people who also love it too.
24:14Do you have your program in school or do you have an outside entity, like, when you do your coaching? I saw this board.
24:23Oh, yeah. So it's a scaling road map.
24:25So I would say we I wouldn't describe what we do as coaching,
24:29mostly because bad branding for the word. Yeah. In general Everybody's a coach now.
24:34Yeah. Tell How do you feel about that? That everyone's a coach or about I feel like you inspired and people like you have inspired so many people to do this, but there's a lot of really bad teachers out there now.
24:45Yeah. Does that make it exciting for you because you're like, yes. That's competition.
24:49No. No. I that's certainly I certainly do not think that way.
24:54I think that people attribute far more to malice than to incompetence, which is that like, they let's say you have a bad first grade math teacher. You're not like, this person is evil.
25:04So they're just not that good at teaching. And how do you get good at teaching? You practice teaching.
25:08And unfortunately, some people get practiced on and they're not that good. Right? And so, also, there's an an unfortunate bias for students for some reason in the alternative world of education if you're trying to learn how to pickle fruit versus trying to learn algebra that when you learn arithmetic from your first math teacher, once you learn algebra, people aren't like, screw my arithmetic teacher, algebra is really where the the real stuff happens.
25:30When people move to one zero one to two zero one, all of a sudden they forsake their first teacher, which I find interesting. I don't know what it is, but I've just noticed that as a But in terms of why why are there people?
25:41I one, there's for sure an underbelly to anything. Like, are people who try to make a quick buck.
25:48And I would say, by and large, if all of my content in aggregate could be taken, it's like, it is not quick and it is not pain free. It is risky, it is painful, it will take longer than you thought and it will suck. Yeah.
25:59But my my my medalist and for all this stuff has always just been proof first. Like, the proof is the pudding.
26:05Right? It's not even in the pudding, it is the pudding. Like, if you are the number one skateboarder in the world, plenty of people will love to learn how to do an ollie from you.
26:14And so start with the proof and then everything else comes. Yeah. And so the reason that I think my brand grew disproportionately from other people could argue arguably talk about business is that I had proof first.
26:24Right? So like we had a, you know, $46,000,000 exit. And we had a relatively large relatively not Apple, but like relatively large business compared to by percentage than most people.
26:36And so that gives humble, by the way. Enough that gave us enough credibility to say, like, listen.
26:41I I can't get you to a billion because I haven't been there yet, but I know how to get to a 100. I've done it three times. So I'm, like, pretty confident.
26:49And so, I can just that's where my that's where my confidence ends for now. And I feel like we're on the path to getting to a billion and beyond.
26:57But, yeah, I just talk about what I know. Do you feel like people should start with their physique first and then their business? Or do you think like, when you see people that are kind of out of shape Yeah.
27:07Like, I know there's a lot of people that feel that they can't even run a good business if they're not in like a good shape. I mean, I don't think that's true. I mean, I'd love it if everyone got in shape, but I know plenty of like super out of shape rich people.
27:17Yeah. I'd I'd I'd lot of people sacrifice one thing to get to the other. I think you can have a live a live a life of and, um, not or.
27:26Uh, I think I was fortunate that I got into fitness really really young. I've been training like twenty one, twenty two years now. And so for me to maintaining muscle is actually significantly easier than gaining muscle.
27:35Yeah. And so I gained it when I had the time to gain it and now it's very easy for me to maintain it. But it's kind of like building a business.
27:43It's much harder to build a business than it is to maintain a business. And so when you're in that kind of period, I I think that there are seasons of life where you will be unbalanced for periods of time, and it's just because you have limited resources in terms of time, money, effort, etcetera.
27:57And so you need to allocate it where you think you're gonna get the highest return relative to where you wanna go. If you're like, I wanna be the absolute richest man in the world, um, there are gonna be some choices and some trade offs that you're willing to make or you're gonna probably have to make.
28:09And I think a lot of the the the anger that people have for the world is that they see the price tag for the things they want, they're not willing to pay it.
28:17Yeah. That's true. Yeah.
28:19I've never I've never myself, everybody's different, I've never really seen money as my motive. I've always seen my purpose and then money will follow.
28:30And how I kind of view it is like, god will bless me with it when I when I'm ready for it and then he'll give me wisdom to make money.
28:39Like, I remember there was a year, um, where I just turned to my mom and I said, I'm I'm I'm gonna make millions next year and I and I haven't made my first million yet.
28:49And I don't know, I looked at it, I said, I don't know how I'm gonna do it but I really feel like the Lord says I could do it if I believe in him and if I trust in him. It was the first one that I made a few million that year and I just remember looking at myself in the mirror and be like, woah, like, it first came with belief and, like, I could really do this.
29:07And so I think what I'm struggling with now is the maintaining Mhmm. Because I feel like I'm getting fatigued and I I feel like I'm getting burned out and sometimes, I I said this to my sister because she she got inspired by working with me and she she's going to go chase her dreams.
29:23And I told her, I said, enjoy chasing it because holding onto it, it's it's way worse than like Defending the belt is much harder. Yeah. So, my what would you say your advice to me is for that?
29:34Right now, I'm trying to defend Yeah. What I have.
29:37But at the same time, I want that, you know, that wheel. Right? Yeah.
29:40I started doing stand up comedy. I started doing stage work, went on tour. Yeah.
29:45Do you like it? Shoot, bro. Like, if I could just only do that,
29:49done. It's like I hate this conversation.
29:51He's like, this? This is pulling teeth. No.
29:53No. This honestly, bro, like, I'm I'm I'm an extremely, extremely blessed man.
29:58There are people that work way harder than me, way more talented than me, but I I was given this and I definitely appreciate it. And I do appreciate your time. Mhmm.
30:06I just feel like I go back and forth so much. I get so dizzy, but I'm trying to create that ecosystem because I know that the pod could turn into ticket sales and then this could produce stand up clips.
30:18And then now, I went on a 19 this is how I know I'm bad at business. This is true. I'm not lying.
30:23I'm terrible at business. I'm not good. I went on a 19 city tour, and praise God it did well.
30:31But every person in the meet and greet goes, I had no idea you do comedy. They called into the theaters. They're like, what is he doing?
30:39Bro, how did I do that? Like, how did I not how did I did I get to a place? How did they find out about it?
30:45I thought I was
30:46Well, no. I mean, I started out with comedy and because the tour was a podcast tour, and so it was half podcast, but he opened up with comedy. Yeah.
30:53And so when he did his comedy, people were like, oh, dude. I don't even know you do stand up, but they knew it was gonna be a show. Yeah.
30:59But I feel like if he would have done that, his audience would have known what he was doing. He would have put on, like, a pretty good learning. Details of it.
31:05Yeah. Yeah. Would have posted 400 times that week telling people.
31:08I would. How
31:10do you know when it's the right time to build the ecosystem where you could go from one successful thing you've built to something else where they could feed each other? And how do you know that you're not being greedy and over spread yourself? Yeah.
31:22I wouldn't I mean,
31:23it's interesting to use the label greedy. Um, I would just use it. I would just say unfocused, um, which I think you asked the original question of, like, where do people fall like, where do people fail when they're trying to start a business?
31:34First is they don't start. Second, they think it's gonna happen faster. They're gonna have to do way less than it takes.
31:39The next one after that is that they're unfocused, is that they shiny object. Right?
31:44There's too many opportunities. But the thing is is that you have such limited resources as a business owner, especially a small business owner, that, like, you you really can't do much.
31:53It's actually astonishing how little how how little we can do compared to how much there can be done. Right? It's almost it's nothing.
31:58Could you elaborate this off of me? So if you look at how the vast majority of people made their wealth, the vast majority, they made their wealth doing one thing very well and then then they have enough resources that they can start building out other verticals.
32:12And so we only see the ultra success once it's already built through one channel and then it appears like an ecosystem. But almost no businesses begin as one. So they begin with multiple things?
32:23No. They begin with one thing and they go all in on that thing for an extended period of time. Got it.
32:27And they allow that one thing to just they they wanna take it to the natural extreme. I'll give you I'll give you a story to to illustrate the point. So a friend of mine, acquaintance from high school called me up.
32:35He's not friends with him at all. Yeah. No.
32:37It wouldn't be fair to it wouldn't be fair to my friends to call him a friend. An acquaintance of mine from high school saw me doing some stuff and he saw my cell phone number and and hit me up from, like, however long ago. Anyways and he had a he has a had a a contracting roofing business.
32:52And so I said, you know, how's business? And he's like, oh, it's it's great. And he's describing that they how they do roofs.
32:58And I was like, oh, that's amazing, dude. And he was like and he paused. He's like, we also do a little general contracting work.
33:04And I was like, okay. He's probably doing 5 or $6,000,000 a year.
33:07I was like, okay. Got it. So, you do roofs and you do some general contracting.
33:12He was like, yeah. And we do some build and flips. And I was like, okay.
33:18He's like, know, I don't I don't leave money on the table. And so I used this almost like everyone on my team knows this joke. I'm like, wouldn't wanna leave money on the table Yeah.
33:25Because there you leave small money on the table by continuing to go all in on the one thing and that's how you make the most money.
33:35And so if you look at the biggest roofing company in The United States, it's a billion dollar plus company. So why does this person think that he needs to have three businesses in order to have a larger business?
33:48He doesn't. It's just typically they're they're limited in some way by their ability to get customers, and so the only thing they can think of is sell them more stuff. But in so doing, create multiple businesses that are too operationally complex to manage.
34:02And so you never really overexpand. You just under talent. So you don't have enough good people who can do the stuff and usually can't get enough good people because the core business doesn't make enough money to attract the good people.
34:14And so then you get into this no man's land where you have three, we call it mutant businesses where it's like, this one kind of feeds this one and this one kind of feeds this one and it only works in the entrepreneur's head but never in reality. And so I define commitment as the elimination of alternatives.
34:28And so focus, if you think about it, I think focus and commitment are very similar because if you think about the absolute most focused person in the world, they would do not they wouldn't sleep, they wouldn't eat, they would only do one thing. And anything that is not that one thing is less focused than absolute focus.
34:41And so, the most focused entrepreneurs say no to things that they desperately wanna do and know they could crush. But they say no to that because they realize that saying no is actually saying yes again to the thing that they believed and they started on their their mission to do.
34:56And so, I would say it is probably one of five or six big consistent errors that entrepreneurs will make.
35:07It's very difficult to get out of when you have multiple half children. They're not not they're not to adult they're not to adolescents yet, they're not they're not adults yet, they're just toddlers. And then you just don't have enough time and resources to feed them all and you don't have you don't have the money for a nanny.
35:20And so but like, they don't actually grow up though. And so and then to where the analogy ends, obviously, is that sometimes you have to let it go. And to use a different analogy that would be more palatable, you have to prune the tree in order to keep it growing.
35:34And so a lot of times, Yeah. You have to redirect the resources towards the thing that you get the highest returns on.
35:42So when do you so it's when it lucratively not in his own word. Right?
35:47When you produced enough money for you to float another idea is when you're able to do that?
35:53You can always do it. The question is whether the returns are higher than doing more on the same one that you're already have have leverage in.
36:00And so typically, when you have this cash that's coming from this thing that's working, that cash would probably be best suited going back into that thing that's working, making it even more profitable. It's like you wanna feed the feed the winner, starve the losers. You don't wanna steal from the winner and then feed the loser.
36:15Yeah. Now, we don't know it's a loser yet, but it's very rare, not impossible, but very rare that someone will gain more from splitting their attention.
36:26And so, a different way of thinking about this is imagine you did three years in one business and then you had the idea of another business. We usually will say, okay, well, man, I could probably in the first year that business do half of what I'm doing in this business and probably by the second year I could do as much or more than I'm currently doing.
36:43You're like, oh, that's a better business than the one I'm in. But we can't compare it like that because you're already in year three of your current one. Yeah.
36:50Which means that you'd actually have to compare it to year five of your current one with all that attention and resources directed back at that one. And most times, year five will almost always be year one or year two of any new business. And so this is why even if you are an inferior vehicle, I think there's a saying in the stock market, which is time in the market beats timing the market.
37:12Time in the market beats Timing the market. Yeah.
37:15So it's like you have to put your time in the in the lifting world, which I come from is like we call time under the bar. It's like you just have enough time under the bar in.
37:23And this is purely like business. Right? It's not even like, you wouldn't put this in the category of I have a successful business and then this is my passion.
37:30And I I want I do it because I love it. I think you can do something because you love it. I think that's fine.
37:34It's just a question of like, you have limited resources
37:37is again, I speak in purely practical terms. Yeah.
37:40Business. When you when you when you when you divert resources, you divert nutrients, sunlight, water to another plant, the main plant will grow less than if you put all of that on the main one.
37:53That's also fine. It's just understand the trade that you're making, is that this will not grow as fast and you might be less profitable overall and probably more stressed. What was the first time you've ever done that for yourself?
38:05Done that so many times, which is why I can describe it in such vivid clarity. So so do do you still do that now?
38:13Is that Yes. It's still incredibly difficult. I I mean, one of the one of the the recurring themes in my content, called the woman in the red dress.
38:21And it's because it's probably one of my favorite scenes in The Matrix, is Neo is going through the training program. He's walking behind me Morpheus, and Morpheus is talking about something.
38:30There are all these people. All of sudden, the woman in the red dress walks by and Morpheus says, were you listening to me? Were you looking at the woman in the red dress?
38:35And he says, look again. He looks back and it's an agent pointing a gun at his head. And to me, the woman in the red dress is always the distraction, the thing that looks appealing.
38:44Right? The thing that will take you take your eye off the ball. And so when I met Leila, for example, I was a successful entrepreneur.
38:53I'll use quotes. I thought I was successful. Um, I had I think I had four or five gyms at the time when we met.
38:59Um Some guy who owns one is like, dang. And and I I had a I had a a dental agency that I had a partner with.
39:08I had a chiropractor agency that I had a partner with. I had a gym launch business where I'd fly around and launch gyms, not where my gyms were.
39:18And I had all of that, and I was the CEO of all of it. So I'd be like, I own companies.
39:24And, obviously, when we started dating, she had this brilliant idea where she said, hey, you know, this launch business, you take all the cash from this and you feed all these other ones.
39:35What if you just spent all your time on the launch business because you're spending like 20% of your time on it and it's making like all the money? And the the the difficulty between there and where I ultimately ended up was like three hard conversations that I had to have that I was dreading.
39:51And so when I had to really write down, will these three conversations be the things that limit me from my goal, it became much more practical of like, okay, I'm gonna get through these things.
40:02I will feel like I'm going to die, but I won't. And I will get through it. And then I did.
40:06I did all three in the same day, because I was just like, I I had to, like, rip it off like a Band Aid. How did I feel? Freeing.
40:13Did it feel way less worse than you thought it was?
40:16The anticipation is always worse. And then after the first one's done, you're like, I wanna call everyone.
40:22Like, like, tell tell your mom. Like Mom? Is dad home?
40:26Yeah. Yeah. I got some things I gotta share.
40:28Right? I gotta talk to him. Put on speaker.
40:30Yeah. And so and so yeah. I think it's it's it's a great momentum builder.
40:33It's like just have one hard conversation, you realize you don't die and you'll and you'll get through it. But you have like, it has been there has been no truer lesson in my life than the return on focus.
40:43I think David Senre from the founder podcast, I don't if you've you've heard of it. He said he cons if he consolidated every single podcast he's done with all the billionaires he's been on into one word, it was focus, which is just choosing to go all in over and over and over again on this one thing.
41:01Is there something that and this is purely we're not talking practical. We're talking just like you as your personality. Yeah.
41:07Is there one thing that right now when you look back on that you truly love and that you wish you could be doing right now? Not because you would give all this away, but just something that you love. Um, Yeah.
41:18There's tons of things that I love. Um, but this is a really good question because it'll lead in something kinda cool. So
41:23downstairs, have, I think, the sickest gym in Vegas, um, and it has only a membership of of one.
41:30It's only for you? Well, the team can use it, obviously. Oh, But like, yeah, there's no real membership.
41:35But this is really really interesting. So we talk about passions.
41:40Right? And we hear the term follow your passion. And I actually took that very much to heart.
41:46And so when I was right out of college, I was a management consultant. I did space cyber intelligence stuff as a defense contractor right out.
41:54And I was very miserable during that period of time. And I was very obsessed with fitness, because I'd always been into fitness probably like seven years into fitness at that point. I was like really into I was competing, things like that.
42:04And the people I worked with were like, dude, you gotta do fitness, man. Like, it's literally all you talk about. You're obsessed with it.
42:11And even got to the point where one of my coworkers was like, I'll give you the money to start the gym if you if you just start one. And so that was kind of my sign. And so, I ended up obviously leaving and then fast forward, I I started a gym and the gym ended up becoming successful.
42:27But what was interesting is that I started the gym because I loved fitness. But actually owning a gym had very little to do with fitness.
42:35I had to sell memberships, I had to fix broken equipment, I had to fix playlist, I had to pay payroll, I had taxes, I had admin, I had to make the workout, all of these things. And the majority of my day actually had nothing to do with what I was quote passionate about.
42:47And the majority of the customers that I had weren't actually interested in power lifting and strength training. They were like women who just wanted to lose weight. But I was like, okay, well, that's the market.
42:55I'll just keep growing growing the business. And then I eventually, you know, had those and then I started gym launch. We licensed the model of 6,000 locations.
43:02We ended up selling to private equity. And today, I have a gym with no members.
43:07And I only say that because there's this idea of following your passion, and it's a very attractive thought.
43:15It's a great sound bite when someone asks you, you know, what what would a piece of advice would you give to people? You'd be like, follow your passion. The thing is this is not actually practically relevant because one, your passions will likely change.
43:27The things that I loved when I was 20, I might not love now. Yeah. Number two, even if they don't change, the percentage of your day that will actually be doing your passion is typically very small if you want to make money doing your passion.
43:41You'll never work another day in your life. Sure. Right?
43:45And number three, money also tends to change your relationship with it. I had a different mentor who said never try to turn your passion into a business because then you turned it into work.
43:55And so different different wisdoms, but I'll say as somebody who actually went full cycle on this and I don't know many people who have, who actually said like, I followed my passion, I did the full thing and I've ended back where I started, which I now have a gym and I work out with the people that I like and that's it.
44:12And there's no memberships, there's no marketing, that's that's what it is and I love it. Yeah. That's good.
44:17And so I think that in some ways, you can pervert your passion in a way by trying to monetize it.
44:26Mhmm. I'm not saying that you can't. That's can't and shoulds, do whatever you want.
44:31Yeah. I love that shit. But a shirt that's Yeah.
44:35But but my experience has been that, like, if you want to do your passion, do the thing you're passionate about
44:40and then make money where the market would like to pay you for your goods and service. I agree. I was on I I I if you heard me in the beginning, I said I never chased the money.
44:50Yeah. That's why when podcasting is very lucrative, the stand up thing is very lucrative, to me, bro, it was a crazy surprise.
44:58But I truly went into this as if I if I could put a sandwich in front of my face, like, and I could eat it off the money that I make off of what I'm doing, I'll be so happy. And so I went that direction. I mean, I could tell why there's a lot of hiccups.
45:12And I feel like after talking to you, I've been dealing with problems for, like, the like, eight months, and I I'm gonna laugh when I say this, but, like, I feel like you would have taken maybe half an afternoon to solve all this stuff. Like like, for when he said, uh, it's hard conversations, my gut started hurting. Like, I had, like, an ulcer.
45:30I was like, oh, dude. I don't wanna have those conversations. And I also have a problem with, uh, and this might be something I I shouldn't do, but every time I get something, I like to divide it with people that I love.
45:39So I'll hire friends and family and that just never worked out. I don't think there's anything wrong with hiring friends and family if you hold them to the same standards as you hire anyone else. Yeah.
45:47Right. Right. And you make that clear.
45:48Isn't that right, Belle? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
45:50I think if you if you just make that you make that clear upfront, I think it's totally fine. Yeah. Yeah.
45:54Yeah.
45:56Um, I read online, you know, people hear you talking about persuasion a lot. Right? You think it's something very important.
46:02So where do you draw the line when you're coaching people or with yourself between persuasion and manipulation? Woah.
46:08Woah. Woah, dude. So then I would just ask you what's the difference?
46:12What do I think is the difference? But this I'll be glad I'm in the middle of this So if it were I don't know. No.
46:17I just wanna hear your definition. Yeah. Yeah.
46:19Okay. So I think persuasion is I'm gonna make something sound nice, and I'm going to explain why I think it I like it.
46:26I'm gonna make it attractive. Right? I think I'm gonna persuade you to liking something, so I'm gonna make that thing attractive in the way that I would be attracted to it.
46:34Right? And then I think manipulation is maybe using things against you, figuring out what you might choose, maybe playing on your feelings, knowing that maybe you have a hard time with something. So I'm gonna use that to to to tug at your heartstrings in order to get you to do what I want you to do.
46:49So in both situations sorry. Go ahead. Yeah.
46:51Can I say one thing? Isn't manipulation also changing
46:55something to look like something else? Yeah. Yeah.
46:58So
46:58this is why it's important to ask for definitions because we like, if we manipulate the way that you described, it's more deceiving. Mhmm. Right?
47:06Do I say something that is not true versus saying things to change someone's behavior? So if you think about manipulation is like, I'm going to do something or say something that changes someone's behavior.
47:16If those statements are true, is that persuasion? Is that manipulation?
47:22Does that help? What's the difference?
47:27If you do say it again?
47:29So if I do or say something that is truthful and it changes your behavior Yep. That's not manipulation. Okay.
47:37That's persuasion.
47:38Okay. But is that even persuasion if he what he's telling me is the truth? Well, yes.
47:42Oh, a 100%. If it's if it's true it's true.
47:46Total. That's the rule number one in marketing for us. Okay.
47:48State the facts and tell the truth. Yeah. And if the truth isn't compelling, make the truth compelling as in change reality.
47:53That's manipulation.
47:55To change reality? Isn't it? No.
47:57I'm saying like, if I wanna say, like, I am let's say I wanted to say I'm the greatest marketer of all time. Mhmm.
48:02Well, then I would wanna say well, I'm not gonna say I'm the greatest marketer of all time. I haven't met all the marketers. Right?
48:07But I could say, I did this launch. We did a $106,000,000 in a weekend, all using the stuff that I showed in my books that I give away for free.
48:16And I use the stuff in the books, on the book to market the book. That would be proof.
48:21Yeah. And so if I state that, is there any deception there? Mm-mm.
48:25Does it make you more likely to purchase something around marketing for me? Yeah. Probably.
48:30I'm actually putting in my description. Yeah. Links in the description.
48:34Yeah. Yeah. So state the facts, tell the truth.
48:36And so, anyways, I I I asked you the question because I would say that most people not most people. Some people might define the difference between help and manipulation Mhmm.
48:46As intent. And as somebody who doesn't really put a lot of weight on intention because you can intend for a good thing to happen, a bad thing happens. You can intend for a bad thing to happen, a good thing happens.
48:55And so I care very little about it. I care much more about like, are there skills that you can acquire to increase the likelihood that people take a specific action?
49:05And the answer is yes. And so those things are going to be in the short term changing the relative value of a reinforcer of something good. So how can I make the bad thing appear better, which typically just means you just talk about the bad thing, which for most people is like, oh god, forgot about that?
49:20You you bring it back up. Right. If you don't do this thing, you don't lose weight.
49:25You could eventually live shorter life, state the facts and tell the truth. People who over 50 overweight, they lose five years in your life, which means you might not be able to see your great grandkids and you'll just see your grandkids. If that's meaningful to you, you might be more likely to take an action as a result of me stating that fact.
49:39And so it's really just aligning facts that would naturally, in the short term, increase someone's motivation to take an action.
49:46Okay.
49:48I like that. That was a fun conversation. That makes sense.
49:50I like that a lot. Yeah. But if the person's action ends up hurting them Right.
49:55Was it manipulation? Yeah. If I didn't mean to hurt them, was it manipulation?
49:59No. But the same thing happened. But you don't know.
50:02Right. And so this is why for me, a lot of a lot of words the end result of many words means the same thing.
50:11Because like teaching is fundamentally changing someone's behavior.
50:16So is selling. So is persuasion. So is manipulation.
50:20Yeah. Like, all of these things are just like we do a thing or say a thing to get someone to do something Mhmm. Which also is what the point of communication is.
50:26Yeah. The only reason we communicate is to change people's behavior. Yeah.
50:29It's why we communicate. So I say hi, so you say hi back. I change your behavior.
50:33If I don't say hi, don't say hi.
50:36So in personal relationships, how do you navigate that when somebody tells me, well, my my intention wasn't that? You know how that happens a lot?
50:43It's like, well, this wasn't you might get I I do something to you, and you get upset at me. And I'm like, that wasn't my intention. Yeah.
50:48How do you navigate personal relationships in that time? So
50:51for the people who are closest to me, they play by the same rules as me, which is like for Layla and I, we care very little about intention. Now, I have to say that we've grown a very large affinity for one another because we both help each other become who we wanna become, I'll use loose words there, and do what we want to do.
51:08And so we both increase the odds of us getting the life we want by being with each other. And so we just talk in those terms, which may seem robotic, but it's more just clear communication.
51:18Yeah. And also, I know it sounds odd and I know people even hearing me talk this way sounds odd, but it like, the alternative is is mediocre, average, normal, boring and, like, those are none of the things that I that I want in my life.
51:30So, like, it makes sense that I would communicate differently than most people because I don't want the same things other as other people. But Yeah.
51:37Making the world this way has allowed me to predict behavior significantly better. And I'll give you a story that that that kind of might drive this point home.
51:47So back in the day, I was a little bit more boisterous of a kid, a rambunctious, you know, teenager.
51:55And I was on the tennis team at my high school and I ended up they had if you were senior, if you had like private lessons, you could you could leave instead of doing practice, you could just go to a private lesson then you go to the matches.
52:10Right? And so I ended up having a a coach for a a short period, and then we ended up not having the coach anymore, but I ended up still being able to not go to practice.
52:23And so I would just go to the weight room and work out because I liked lifting because that was what I was, like, really into. And so I told my mother this. And so she, being a Christian not to be fair had nothing to with her being a Christian.
52:38Yeah. You're just saying that now because now I could be like, that's why you're like, I don't know where this is going. No.
52:44Not at all. No. No.
52:44No.
52:47She called the school to turn me in for an honor violation without talking to me. It was my junior year.
52:53Rad on you? Yeah. She broke the eleventh commandment.
52:56Yeah. Without Thou shall not rat on this. On thy on thy son.
52:58Yeah. And so what was interesting about that is that she really had my best intentions at heart.
53:06Right. All she did was inflict damage. And so if I have someone in my life who all they wanna do is see me succeed, but all they actually do is hurt me.
53:19I do not want them in my life. And so, some people feel guilt around that because they have established rules for themselves that make it impossible for them to cut people out of their lives.
53:30I don't have those rules. What's up, guys? This video is sponsored by Grand Canyon University.
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55:04Right. Let's get back to the show. Can I can I bring up something?
55:08Yeah. That seems to me that she formed her own rules, lived by them Mhmm.
55:15And it punished you by it. Maybe. So that's why I always say, like, whose authority do you live by?
55:22Mhmm. So how do you know that your rules don't hurt others? Oh, they might.
55:28I have no I have no knowledge. I mean, I have I have no ability. I have no I'd like, I have no ability to to know.
55:33Yeah. I do my very best. Yeah.
55:35But I I I love that theory that you say because that it's so true. And you know who stumbles upon this? Christians.
55:41They they like you know what I hear all the time? People like, yeah. You gotta put the fear of God in them.
55:46And I'm like, hey, man. That comes naturally. You know what I mean?
55:50Like, you don't got to do that. Uh, and but I also wanna let you know that the reason in the beginning of this podcast, I said there is no condemnation through Christ Jesus because that's how he plays.
56:01Yeah. The devil plays that way. The devil's the one that makes you feel kind of like, you know, you should do this or you shouldn't do that.
56:08Oh, how do you feel? You know, I always tell people, the devil will make you do a sin and then make you ponder how shitty you are for doing it. I've that is my best relationship with the devil.
56:17I'll be like, no, don't wanna do it. I don't wanna do it. He makes it really interesting, then I do it and he's like, you silly dude.
56:23You dumb. And now for forty eight hours, I'm just like, why did I do that, bro? Why did I do that?
56:27Interesting. Usually, it's road rage. I'm coming out of tracks.
56:30You know what I mean? Just got the Lord's word and then this guy cuts me off and now I want him to meet the Lord. Yeah.
56:38How do you deal with rage?
56:42Man, I would say Did you ever have it? Yeah.
56:46For sure. I would say that my core emotion's anger.
56:52It's like, actually.
56:55I don't know if she saw me so casually. That's my main emotion. I'll do it.
56:59Let's say, I think my natural place is murder. I rest in in deep blood We didn't of my enemies.
57:07Bro, you said that like a hitman, dude.
57:12Like a hitman. That was terrifying, and I and I want you to elaborate that.
57:17What do you mean? What do you what? What do you mean?
57:19Because you don't come off like that at all. Well, do. Don't a know.
57:22Yeah. Monk. Well, it's true.
57:23And you're so calm, cool, cool. Certainly not. Do we see him on the road?
57:28Oh, jeez. Louise, that guy really isn't. No.
57:30I, um, no. I mean, I I have an ego. You know what I mean?
57:34And I don't wanna say it. Yeah. You know, I know.
57:36I'm just leaving. We all He's kidding. I'm just kidding.
57:39I forgot that you live in anger, bro. Yeah. Let me pull back my folks.
57:43Soaked. Right? Soaked is a good idea.
57:44No. I mean, so I I think that Layla and I talk about this a lot that I think oftentimes, even in in married couples, there's people like, people have a proclivity.
57:53Like, what is your what is your first instinctual or, from my perspective, trained reaction to something? And so anger is a really interesting emotion, um, because you learn it because it both gets you what you want and gets bad things away from you.
58:10And so it's both an avoidance strategy and also a coercion strategy. And so there's a reason that I think there are some emotions that are more useful than others.
58:20Sadness typically doesn't lead to success. Mm-mm. Because sadness typically, there's you don't take a lot of action when you're depressed.
58:26Action. When you're angry, take lots of action. Right?
58:30Big fuel. Yeah. Big fuel.
58:32And so I I've thought a lot about anger because it's probably the one like, Leila, for example, she's an anxious person. So she she worries. She gets she double checks, she triple checks, she quadruple checks, she just that's that's her that's her proclivity.
58:46She acts that way as her as her base. Now, if you were to meet her, you would never say, oh, I think she's really anxious. Because do doing our best and this is where we, you know, hold each other accountable and and do our best to help.
58:58We will try to monitor each other's behavior. Like, if I'm angry, the the way to not act angry, at least if you look at some of the the literature, is to act as if,
59:10which is like, you can be angry. What would somebody who's not angry at all? How they act?
59:14Do that. Be angry, but sin not. Mhmm.
59:16Be angry, but sin not. Yeah. Is that yeah.
59:19Love it. Like like like, don't act like how she thought of a bible thing. Yeah.
59:23I thought of a joke in my life. He did I was, like, watching them both deal with what they're dealing with. He's like, come on.
59:28Wait. What the the hell? Like, you're right.
59:30I should have thought about that. I should have thought about that. I told you.
59:32Told you. I told And then rolled out the window. They're like, hey.
59:35It's cool. Yeah. It's not cool.
59:37You were not angry. Yeah. I'm not an angry at all.
59:39No. But I definitely suffer from anger. But the thing is I think it's been one of the hardest and they Albert Ellis talks about this in some of his books.
59:45It's one of the hardest ones to beat. And, of course, you know, with the ego, I'm like, it's the hardest one to crack Yeah. Because it serves you.
59:52Because you get a purpose out of it. You well, one, get tons of energy from it. But two, like, if let's say someone says something to me that I don't like.
59:59If
1:00:00If I visibly show that I'm angry, they will stop doing that. And so when that happens, I'm reinforced for being angry. Because people are like, ah, he has a short fuse, but that also means it changes everyone else's behavior around me so they don't piss me off.
1:00:12Yeah. Absolutely. Right.
1:00:12Serves me. And so it's difficult, whereas, like, everyone wants to get someone out of sadness. Um, people prefer to get someone out of anger, it's harder.
1:00:20Right? Yeah. But also, you're you're saying true things.
1:00:23A lot of people that are like, people are scared to piss off are very successful people. Steve Jobs is one of Yeah. People would jump out of the elevator when he was in the elevator.
1:00:31And
1:00:32so he used punishment as re as his primary method of changing behavior. And so, like, you've got carrots and sticks fundamentally. That's what you've got.
1:00:40Carrots and sticks? Yeah. I can either make you feel bad for not doing something or make you feel good for doing it.
1:00:45So if I if I What carrot can stick? No. Like, if I can give you an incentive for taking action or I can punish you for not taking action.
1:00:52Oh, like carrots or get you to yeah. Yeah. Stick.
1:00:54Eat you with a stick and give you a carrot. Do think that's ever exhausting though? Like like, feeling that anger, like, being in a place where
1:01:01it does so it does fuel you, right, to keep going and going more, but isn't that exhausting in the way that there is no peace in that anger? Oh, for sure. I mean, a 100%.
1:01:11And I would say that, like,
1:01:12I'm I mean, Leila Leila will say this for me, so I'm just using her words. Um, I'm much better now than I was, you know, when we met a decade ago. Um, I actually used to see my anger as like a superpower, as just like, this is what gives me laser like focus and endless energy.
1:01:28And I remember at one point talking to somebody, you know, know, a mentor or whatever. I said like, I like everything that this gives me except it feels like it burns dirty.
1:01:38It's like dirty fuel. And I want to but I don't wanna sacrifice what I'm doing, what I'm achieving.
1:01:45And so I'm not like I it's like I I I I wanna change, but, like, not too much. Yeah. Any chance saying this in a layer?
1:01:52Yeah.
1:01:54Want to stop, but I man, it's so good. Do you my buddy who was explaining I was explaining I was gonna be on the show with you, he said that you had this thing and he smiled.
1:02:05He goes, oh, I know you're not gonna like this. And I was like, what? What is it?
1:02:07He says that you use past experiences as like fuel Yeah. For you to burn at it. Yeah.
1:02:13And that's why my first question for you is like, would you rather have peace? Yeah. Or and when you answered that, I was like, wow, man.
1:02:20He literally just Yeah. To me, it's just I've never met anybody that just willingly looked at my face and said, yeah. No.
1:02:26No. I don't care about peace. I want I what what what there's this meme.
1:02:30Oh, god. I wish somebody memes it. He's like, I want problems
1:02:33all the time. You know? Just I wish it Well, I think most people would do that because if they actually wanted, they behave differently.
1:02:39Just social norms around it that make it look like bad. But I again, I see money and power as potential energy. Like, as a pursuit in and of themselves, I think they're completely meaningless and empty.
1:02:48But I think using them for good, think, is a is a great thing. Well, I you're you're not wrong. And the verse that you brought up actually kind of points out your direction.
1:02:57He says, be angry, but sin not. You didn't say, I got angry and I Hit my wife. Yeah.
1:03:03Exactly. That was the first one that came to mind after this. Yeah.
1:03:06Yeah. Yeah. You're not going over you're
1:03:09not going out screaming at people and and acting upon your anger. So you're saying you're using it as, like, motivation?
1:03:15I do my best, but, I mean, like, I'm sure Julian's seen me heated sometimes. Yeah. He tucked in when we had that Let's yeah.
1:03:23Yeah. He's great. He's great.
1:03:24Yeah. Yeah. Totally good.
1:03:25Yeah.
1:03:27I'm gonna go down to the one gym. You know the dog and the dog with the fire behind?
1:03:32He's like, everything is fine. Yes. Yeah.
1:03:33Is fine.
1:03:35It's so funny. No. But I think to to to like because I because I have certain traits and achievements that a lot of younger men aspire towards, they are curious about that specific part.
1:03:48Yeah. And so my advice, and I don't give much from that perspective, but it's use what you have. And so if you like, it would be great if it was all sunshine and rainbows and you're like, I just have this bigger purpose than me and I just wanna see this wrong right in the world.
1:04:04That's amazing. My meaning of the gym was don't be broke. That was my my.
1:04:09That was all it was. Right?
1:04:11What what did you just say? Reason reason for being. What what It's a it's a French term.
1:04:16Oh, okay. Yeah. Raison d'etre.
1:04:18Jewish. Raison d'etre, I think is the the She's French. She would know.
1:04:22Yeah. Me too. I'd just step up here, dude.
1:04:24Well, I'm I don't wanna that's so annoying. Are you Parisian? Let me tell you how to say it, bro.
1:04:28That's so annoying. Yeah.
1:04:30Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm I was born in, so I'm not Parisian.
1:04:33But I guess I kinda am. We're, like we lived close by. Come here?
1:04:36I left when I was 10, and then I lived in Canada for six years, and then I moved to California. Oh, sick. Yep.
1:04:42Yeah. Know my mother's Parisian. Oh, she is?
1:04:44Yeah. Wow.
1:04:45Yeah. So, anyways. You're you're Good mom.
1:04:47The Right. Done.
1:04:50Thing I'm gonna meet, I'm gonna be like, why did you rat at him?
1:04:52Spark Trump. Wait. And she has I'm so sorry.
1:04:55Can I veer off? And she has faith. And she's when did she leave France?
1:04:58Four. Oh, she was four. She's born here.
1:05:00Or not she's raised here. Yeah. Okay.
1:05:01But she came to Christ much later. She was, like, in her forties. She was?
1:05:04Yeah. Do you mind at do you mind if you tell us how she found her relationship with God?
1:05:10Well, I think she was, oh, no. She yeah. I think she was just dissatisfied with life.
1:05:14And I think her secretary was Christian and then started taking her to church.
1:05:18That was it. Got it. And then she followed that path?
1:05:21Yeah. Okay. Sorry.
1:05:22Was just curious. Because there's not a lot there's just right now totally different thought, but go on. Oh, for the for the young men.
1:05:29Yes. There so they don't have to have some big some big purpose of being. Right?
1:05:32It's just like, if you're ashamed of your current situation, use that. If you're angry about something some girl said to you that you're broken, you can't take her on a date, use that.
1:05:41Use whatever you can to get to where you wanna go. And over time, you will have more resources and more skills to correct action.
1:05:49I mean, I did use that. Oh, sorry. I did use that when I was a kid, getting made fun of never really affected me.
1:05:56I I kinda just took it that I was like a loser. Was like, this isn't me. But how they made my mom feel Yeah.
1:06:02Really crushed me. So, I worked really hard so that way they could give honor to my mom, wiping away all the times that she had to come to school crying about me.
1:06:13So I I used that anger and I channeled it there. So I agree with you there. Yeah.
1:06:18That's And there is such thing as righteous anger. Yeah. Right?
1:06:20Prove it. I'm saying I have that, but Do you feel like
1:06:29I feel
1:06:36So
1:06:39question, does that ever get in involved with your guys' relationship with your girls? Like, on, bro. I need some more emotion out of you.
1:06:45Are you too, like, calculated with that No. Also, the way I present to you is not the way I present to my wife. Matthew, you probably mostly joy, full tears.
1:06:52Yeah. I'll get choked up for gratitude. Okay.
1:06:54As a total side note, one of the things that I think that has has I would say has I don't know if I'm in the position to say this, but what I've witnessed from the outside is that I feel like from from the experience I had from the inside of the church versus what I can observe today from the outside of it, is that I feel like a lot of modern Christianity has softened masculinity.
1:07:15And I think that is to the detriment of men. Yeah. Well, we were just on this.
1:07:19Yeah. So there's a lot of men that look at God's features and they only look at the lamb Yeah. And they forget the lion.
1:07:26And I was gonna bring it up earlier when you said like, you know, God's not the the God who condemns and all of that. Was like, the Old Testament God for sure fucking was. So
1:07:34god had a wrath? Yeah. Yes.
1:07:36But okay. So the no condemnations in those who are in Christ Jesus. Yeah.
1:07:41Yeah. Condemns, man. Yeah.
1:07:43Yeah. He brings the He's Sodom and Gomorrah. They're like, they're gone, man.
1:07:47Yeah. Wait a Dude, I always talk about that. But you know what I love about his wrath?
1:07:51It's never torture. It's always like that. The flood, the light, the salt, anytime God ever punished somebody, he never tortures them.
1:08:00So when you feel like you're being tortured through your thoughts, it's never Jesus. Jesus motivates you out of love. Like, he he he wants to make you All carrots.
1:08:08Yes.
1:08:09No sticks. Yeah. But, again, he'll lean in and be like, you're above 50.
1:08:13You're gonna die five years earlier. You're
1:08:16gonna meet me five years earlier than you should. I don't know if you should. But this is a really good point to bring up because we do know a lot of Christian girls who, you know, are very strong in their faith.
1:08:24And for them, they want a man, obviously, who is really strong in their faith and their relationship with God, but they feel like they're too soft. And they're like, we want a manly man who has a deep relationship with Jesus, but we want a manly man. So Do you know what happens to the manly men?
1:08:38They walk away and start their own thing.
1:08:42A few too many push ups for you, my friend. You at 3,000, you're like, wait a second. Jesus doesn't exist.
1:08:47He just keeps going. He does push ups. Too dark?
1:08:50Okay. Sorry. No.
1:08:51You're good. Everybody in the room got really quiet. Right.
1:08:54No. But I down the knife. I no.
1:08:56I no. I I mean, again, to the degree that I can comment from the outside, so I understand my position. Yeah.
1:09:03It just seems like an observation that I have that I think I think the church would win a significant more larger amount of young men over. Because, like, there's the manosphere and the red pill and all that stuff. Um, and I think the reason that that resonated with so many young men is because they felt unseen and unheard and they felt weak.
1:09:18And they felt not allowed to be men. They felt condemned for being men. And I think that the church would do a better job of welcoming them in by leaning into the elements of masculinity that are biblical.
1:09:32But I think that have been largely softened. Like, I think there's a lot of edge to the Bible, which I would say a lot of modern day larger mega church to clear your ears type gospel doesn't hit.
1:09:47Yeah. Right. That's why I feel like As an outsider.
1:09:52Would love I would love to I'd love to sit with you and walk with you with at least my mentors, like, that aspect is very true.
1:10:04Yep. And I I just keep pinning it, man, that, like and this is my heart. I don't know you, so I'm just saying off of what I feel.
1:10:11Like, my feelings could be meaningless. My intent could be completely off. But I feel like from what I've absorbed in this conversation, there was a lot less evidence of his existence through his own church.
1:10:27And so, it makes only sense to a man who's veering through life as a child trying to see what actually is and what actually isn't for you to walk into a church and then not be Christ like, I too would walk away. I did. That's why I understand.
1:10:44And then when I you know what it was? It took me a minute to realize that I have to hold responsibility for myself.
1:10:53If that man chooses not to act that way, fine. I can motivate him or manipulate him, but at the end of the day, I am just the sower, I'm not the grower.
1:11:06The the seeds that I'm planting and how it's coming up forth has nothing to do with me. It has to do with him.
1:11:14So, I try not to sit there and really measure everybody around me because that I do feel like you fall on your sword then because I'm either gonna be measuring too high up or I'm gonna be measuring too far down. And then I'm starting to to measure myself in a world that we both know is broken, like it's a broken world. So, really interesting you say this because there was a sermon that I heard
1:11:36nine years ago when Leila and I went to church that was about this topic, which was about, you know, judgment. And he was like, judge not, lest you be judged, something to that degree.
1:11:46And the pastor who I think was phenomenal, Steve Smotherman, shout out to Albuquerque. He had this he delivered this great sermon about he's like, God is not saying you should not judge.
1:11:56As in like, you should not meet someone and say, I think this person's going to try and rob me. You should use judgment.
1:12:03Yeah. If someone's swerving on the road in front of you, you should use judgment. Yeah.
1:12:08Right? It's more so saying whether they are labeling the all of their being as good or bad.
1:12:17And I think that's the at least this is my that was my interpretation of the sermon that I that I kinda took to heart. And so I only bring that up because it was if it was something that you had struggled with with the people around and again, is not me.
1:12:28This I'm I'm sharing this if it's useful, Not for me, from pastor Steve.
1:12:33What you're describing is righteousfully
1:12:35judging. Yeah. So Measuring.
1:12:37I mean, fundamentally and this might Yeah. Everybody does. Yes.
1:12:40But there's some people that abuse it. So this might be interesting from an employee perspective to make this business y.
1:12:48A lot of people don't know the difference between a criticism and an insult.
1:12:51That's true.
1:12:53And so a criticism is communicating a discrepancy between actual and desired.
1:12:59Yeah. You said you're gonna be here at You're at 08:05. I'm communicating.
1:13:03You were five minutes late. All this is factual. If I then say, and you're a lazy piece of shit, that is an insult.
1:13:11And so when people are like, oh, man, he's he's like, he's always criticizing me. It's like, well, is he criticizing you or is he insulting you?
1:13:19Now, it happens both ways where someone takes that where I say, you said you're gonna be here at eight. You're at eight o here at 08:05. You're five minutes late.
1:13:25As like, this guy's always on my case. Was 08:00 our agreement? Is 08:05 untrue?
1:13:32No. I'm stating facts. And so one of the things that we obviously teach internally is like, we want like, feedback is fuel.
1:13:38That's one of our things. Right? So, like, we wanna give someone as much fuel as possible.
1:13:42We wanna have as many feedback cycles as we possibly can and um, take away the emotional charge of feedback. It's like, this is only because we want you to get better faster. Yeah.
1:13:51Yeah. And Right? Praise god that's what we do in our relationship.
1:13:54I always tell her, like, hey. If we put if we keep getting offended every time we bring something up we're never gonna wanna bring anything up. Mhmm.
1:14:01Yeah. And you're diving into business.
1:14:05I'm a bad businessman. I'm a a You're a great husband. Eight zero five, I was like, hey.
1:14:10At least it was an eight ten. You know, like, I was the worst guy. I'm doing great.
1:14:13I'll high five him. Like, you want McDonald's? I'm going.
1:14:16Like, there's no way. I'm buying. Here you But he even says that.
1:14:18He's like, if you really love, like, if you really love your sister, you'd sit her down and have the hard conversation with her. Yeah.
1:14:24Like, right? Like, not telling somebody the truth is gonna, like, it's gonna hurt them more than having that tough convo. I mean, I feel like you have to at some point.
1:14:32But you think about this, bro. Like, I had this conversation with you. Walking into it, you said, oh, I'm a little nervous about it.
1:14:37You're nervous about I was nervous about it. You're you're very adequate with your words. I don't even know if I used that word right.
1:14:43Like, dude, like, you're very very good with your words, you know how to talk, you know how to, like, demand a room and you coach people. I just have a belief and I, like, care enough about you to share it. I just the way I go about is one day, I'm gonna be standing before God and God goes, hey, did you talk did you talk to Alex?
1:15:01Yeah. And what am I gonna say? Oh, I was on a podcast.
1:15:03I didn't wanna be showed up on my own podcast. What you mean? The podcast that I gave you so you could share the good news?
1:15:09Yeah, but I I didn't like, well, you know, like he was pretty firm on it. Like, I didn't wanna keep pushing. It's like, yeah, but you knew it was true.
1:15:17I mean, yeah, I didn't know it was true. So, at some point, I would have to hate you to put my own selfish pride in my how people look at me over the fact that I could get my ass kicked in a conversation, but I'll at least wanna try and attempt to reach for your heart and say, hey, Alex, I think you should don't judge the church, man.
1:15:37Like like, they they they are my my mom used to tell me this because I I had that moment where I was like, bro, where the where's God's people, dawg? Yeah.
1:15:45Where are they? And, my mentor said, if there's a perfect church and you find it, don't go. Yeah.
1:15:50Because if you go, you'll ruin it. Yeah. It's not a museum for saints.
1:15:53It's a hospital for sinners. Amen. Mhmm.
1:15:54Yeah. That's good. But, no, I don't I'm not really criticizing the church.
1:15:57Yeah. No. I'll just say that before.
1:16:00No. First of all, I appreciate you letting us come here Yeah. And shooting with you.
1:16:05I really do appreciate it. And, uh, I would love to connect, uh, outside of the podcast to just talk to you about faith and then also business and, like, get your brain and Business and things.
1:16:17Business and things. Alright. Man.
1:16:20Rock and roll. Is there anything you wanted to share with them before you leave? Thank you.
1:16:24That's it. Thank you so much.
1:16:28Hey. Thank you guys so much for watching. What an incredible episode.
1:16:30We'll be back for part two when we baptize him. And he's gonna be he's dude, he's gonna be the front charge and be like, listen, man.
1:16:38This is how we do it. And then I'll be like, dude, dude, too much anger. And you're like, no.
1:16:42We use it as for fuel. Yeah. Alright.
1:16:44But thanks, guys. I'll see you guys next time. Peace.
1:16:47We we got off we got off the podcast, and he started getting deep with me again. I was like, dude, don't do that. We're not on the podcast now.
1:16:52He says, no. That's how I run all the time. And then as a joke, I said, we'll run it back right now.
1:16:56He says, I got time. And I was like, wow. This guy is he's the man.
1:16:59So There was a conversation I was tip around. I didn't wanna bring up, but it was about your childhood.
1:17:05Like, how was your relationship with your dad?
1:17:08Really good, then really bad, then really good.
1:17:11Is there any way you could like Yeah. That was it. Right?
1:17:13That's what we were gonna say. Alright. Thanks for coming back, guys.
1:17:16Yeah.
1:17:17I would say that my relation with my father from, call it, zero to, I don't know, 13 was probably, like, what you'd consider, like, a perfect father. I think he he didn't miss a single game ever.
1:17:29He picked me up from school. He dropped me off from school. He was a surgeon.
1:17:32He chose to end work every day at 02:00 so he could pick me up. He always talked about he was like, at the end of my life, I'm gonna have the choice of having more money or more time with you, and I'm always gonna pick more time with you.
1:17:43And so that was that was like that was my dad. That being said, he's a strong willed guy.
1:17:52And I was raised by a single father more or less. So I was raised predominantly by my dad, especially as I got older, which I actually think is a good thing.
1:18:00But I definitely needed a strong hand. And so but as a result of that, he and I did not get super along for I mean, we would, you know, text once every, you know, couple weeks like, hello.
1:18:15Hello. Okay. They In the same home?
1:18:17No. No. No.
1:18:18After no. So like in high school, sure. Uh, I mean, I think I was just a normal high schooler who just like What made what separated you guys?
1:18:24Because like you said, was a perfect dad. What's what what behaviors or patterns changed for you to Um, I think that my dad wanted me to behave the way that he wanted me to behave and I didn't want to do that.
1:18:39Was this when you were a man though? Well, I was trying to be a man. Oh, so you're a teenager?
1:18:43Yeah. I'm 16, 17, you know. And I you know, now you look back and you're like, okay, these are normal developmental stages.
1:18:49But, know, there's separation that has to, you know, has to occur. Otherwise, you can't kinda be your own person. But, yeah, we just had a lot of conflict.
1:18:57And I would say the top the number of topics that we could talk about without argument just gotten narrower and narrower and narrower until it was almost like just the weather. Dang. And I would say that it was that way for a period of years.
1:19:11There I I didn't feel as though he supported the entrepreneurial path that I chose to take. I was the prodigal son, finished Vanderbilt in three years, magna cum laude, went to, you know, defense contracting, nice white collar job, sounded good for him to, you know, tell his friends, okay, my my kid's actually, you know, doing good things.
1:19:28Then I quit, drive across the country with no notice and call him from halfway and say that I'm gonna go be a personal trainer. And so it's like, wait, what?
1:19:36And I like, well, I'm gonna follow my bash. Right? And so he wasn't the biggest fan of it.
1:19:44I think if you were to ask him, he'd say I supported him the whole time. I would say, I don't know if that was communicated the way I would have heard Yeah.
1:19:53And so probably for a period of like five or so years, it was I just we didn't we didn't super talk. Every one time I went home, really hated going home.
1:20:01And so I avoided it to the greatest degree possible, and I just kept, you know, being pretty locked in on work.
1:20:10And I definitely had, I would say, unwarranted anger towards my dad because he wasn't following the perfect father ideal that I had in my mind of what he should have done or should have acted.
1:20:27But he and I are fine now. We buried the hatchet, you know, a while ago.
1:20:32But I would say that the my consolidated like, I could consolidate the feelings that got me over it or the sentiment that got me over the anger that I had, and I really do feel like I'm pretty close to over it.
1:20:44I might be over it, was that my father did the best he could with what he had,
1:20:50and who am I to say that's not good enough for me?
1:20:53And so yeah. I mean, I think I think in terms of intentions, if we were to if we were to use them, I think I would judge my father as having perfect intentions.
1:21:03If you could implement something and and take something away when it comes to raising your kid, what what would you say?
1:21:18Tons of things for my dad. Tons. Tons.
1:21:23Mean, he was literally physically always there for me. You know what I mean?
1:21:27Like, every practice, every game, everything. He was always there. That meant a lot to you?
1:21:31I didn't know any different, to be fair. I only realized how how crazy that is now.
1:21:37Yeah. And that he gave up career, you know, what that meant for him, you know, more offices or, you know, more surgeries or whatever, you know, whatever measurement to do that.
1:21:49And he never once showed even an ounce of regret, resentment,
1:21:54anything. He was happy to do it. He never held it above your head?
1:21:57Never once. Never once. And is is that something you wanna do with your trial?
1:22:02Are you are you gonna wanna be around, or are you sacrificing yourself?
1:22:05No. No. I mean, I see that if if the purpose of what we do so I define a life's purpose by the output of that life.
1:22:16So what was the the meaning of this person's life is what happened as a result. And did nothing happen as well? Did a lot of good things happen as a result?
1:22:24Well, that was the meaning. Right? I actually said this on impulsive because we talked for a while about business stuff, and then we just got deep all of a sudden halfway through.
1:22:34But one of my favorite Albert Kimmel quotes is the the meaning of your life is the reason you don't kill yourself.
1:22:42It's very dark, but fundamentally, it's like you just ask them. It's like, why don't you kill yourself? And they're like, I'm just I mean, I couldn't my wife, my kids, like, I know, and just like, great.
1:22:52That is your meaning. That is why you were here. And so it's like that is the opposite of my work, my whatever whatever thing comes into mind when when you answer that question are the things that are the most meaningful for you, and that is why.
1:23:03But to to circle back to the original question of like, am I gonna take from my dad? I will always physically I mean, I'll do my absolute best to be physically present. I think that my dad was very good at managing the line between, especially in the earlier years, of love and respect, which is like my dad had zero tolerance for disrespect.
1:23:26But he always I always felt like I've never questioned that my father loved me. Never. I would say that the way that he showed that love was maybe harder for me to understand at different periods or chapters of my life.
1:23:38But even when he disagreed with actions that I took, and that may have been painful for me at the time, I can now look back and say that I I know that he why he was doing it.
1:23:50And so, yeah, I think one of my favorite quotes from Pascal, who's a Christian mathematician, was to understand is to forgive.
1:24:02And to be clear, I'm not saying my dad did anything wrong, but my belief was that he had wronged me in some way. Me demanding that he be perfect. But I think I have a deeper understanding of my father and his intentions.
1:24:17And as a result, like, he and I are good.
1:24:20How did you first come to amends with your father?
1:24:24I wish I could say it was one magical conversation, but I think it was just over time. I I grew up. Like, I'd love to say that, you know, we had this one moment and we both cried and hugged or something, but it wasn't that.
1:24:36I mean, we had a conversation where at one point, you know, he was like, is it alright if we just start over? Just fresh slate.
1:24:43We just don't talk about the past. And I was like, I'm good with that. And so we've more or less tried to look forward rather than looking back, and that's been super helpful.
1:24:54I pray that you guys are like it's not even that you're trying to forget, but you forget. You know what mean?
1:25:02Like, it's Just move on. Yeah. It's it's something that, like, there's so much new better memories that kinda fade the old ones away.
1:25:11It literally only lives in your mind. Yeah. Which is wild.
1:25:14That book that you're quoting about that Christian guy Mhmm. Pascal.
1:25:19Pascal. Blaise Pascal.
1:25:20Might have been French. Pascal sounds good. Sounds French.
1:25:26The last thing Jesus said on the cross was forgive them for they don't know. Yep. Um, I think I was actually dabbling this idea with Belle.
1:25:37The the there's a thing that I've been with myself battling is it's self worship. And it's so hard to bring it up, especially on a podcast because
1:25:49How do you worship yourself? Yeah. Yeah.
1:25:53And but I I I think there's a there's a level of worshiping yourself in in a place where the people around you need to see you the way that you see you.
1:26:07And I've gotten a lot more peace from understanding that everybody's life is so much more complicated than I understand it to be. And when I put myself in the middle of it, I become God.
1:26:19And I'm like, well, how could he or how should she or or all that. But when I pull myself back and I'm like, well, you know, I'm at the center of their universe, like, they're probably figuring this out for themselves. It gives me a lot of peace.
1:26:30Is it hard to do that with a father? Somebody that should really be at the center of like where you're at? Is it harder to forgive a family member than it is, like, your wife or or I I apologize.
1:26:45That gentleman's name over there? Julian China. Julian China.
1:26:55I think that and first, I'll I'll just I'll just restate the fact that I I don't think I I don't think my my father needs to be forgiven, to be clear.
1:27:04I think that it was my issue, not his. That said, I think that the difficulty of so, basically, it's like how do we define forgiveness.
1:27:17Right? So I think defining forgiveness would be acting as if a transgression or an aversive behavior had not happened.
1:27:26And so if you can return to original function, original behavior, the same as basically baseline prior, then I would say that you have forgiven the person. And so I think it becomes more difficult with the number of negative interactions you've had with the person.
1:27:41And so I don't know if it has anything to do with family, it's just that family you might have had more interactions with than anybody else. I mean, I think lot there's of divorcees that would say that they had a harder time forgiving their ex than they did their parents.
1:27:54Right? You actually said something to me the other day that stuck with me. He says, building up forgiveness is easy until it gets to resentment.
1:28:02And I think once your heart becomes resentful, it's harder for you to, like, draw the line to want to forgive. But I also tell people that people need to ask for forgiveness.
1:28:12People give forgiveness to people that don't even want it. Have you ever been in that type of relationship where you're like, forgive me something like, dude, I I didn't ask for it. So that's really interesting because I
1:28:22I actually find that really interesting because I think the biggest transgressions that happened to us happen from people who don't believe they need forgiveness, which is what like, someone asks you to forgive them, it takes a special kind of, you know, anger to say, I don't care.
1:28:42I'm still angry at you. Most people, if they humble themselves enough to say, I transgressed. I messed up.
1:28:48I'm sorry. Please forgive me. Someone says that.
1:28:51It's very humbling. And it's very hard to say, screw you. I think the the more common situation is where you have somebody in your life who might have had all of those things but has no desire to be forgiven because they don't see what they did as wrong.
1:29:06And so you basically suck you have the memory of the consequence but with zero for, quote, remorse from the other person. And so I think I think Tupac said it best.
1:29:18But he said That theologian? Yeah. Yeah.
1:29:21Yeah. Yeah. I think he said something degree of just because just because I just because we're not friends anymore doesn't mean I don't want you to eat.
1:29:37You just can't eat at my table.
1:29:39Okay. I don't accept apologies that are, like, not real. Okay.
1:29:47Do you ever have that? Or I don't have that many people who apologize to me, to be fair. They're
1:29:52probably terrible. All these people who are like, I'm so sorry, Alex. This is like if someone says that, I'm like, you're good, dude.
1:29:57Like, we're gonna die. It's gonna be fine. He
1:30:00just goes, I have no feelings. I told you. Yeah.
1:30:02Uh, but, like, when me and Belle first started dating Yeah. She'd be like she would say something like, I'm a gain this is this is a made up example, but she's like, I'm sorry that you feel.
1:30:13And I was like, feel? I go, you just put it back on me. But now you don't like feelings.
1:30:18Okay. Yeah. Like yeah.
1:30:19Oh, just so we're I was like, Belle, Belle, don't apologize if you don't feel like you you should apologize. Don't just don't do it. If you don't feel like you need to apologize, don't apologize.
1:30:27But if you feel like you apologize, apologize correctly. Don't put the blame on the person and be like, sorry you feel like I was coming at you. This is great.
1:30:36I love this. So
1:30:38I I'm lit probably the exact opposite. I care zero for apologies. I just want you to not do that.
1:30:45Just don't do the keys. I care about the outcome, not the intention. If you apologize to me every single time
1:30:51and nothing changes. I don't care. I want you to change.
1:30:55I say this all the time. I go, bro, like, I don't accept apologies because I know you're gonna apologize it again for it. And to me, it's pointless.
1:31:03We're just wasting time here. But, dude, I love the way your brain work and I need a little bit more of it because I am tired of being a hamster in a hamster wheel, bro. Like, I feel like I go through so many redundant things that make me angry and then I do sin even though I don't wanna sin.
1:31:18Cool. Like, I get angry and then I sin and I don't wanna do it. How do you get yourself there?
1:31:22Have you ever been like me and normal human beings where, like, you have you ever been not a robot at all and, like, just operate off of emotions, or are you just one day like, you know what? Never do that again. Overrated.
1:31:34Yeah. Overrated. No.
1:31:35No, of course. I think, again, it's just like how does this thing change my behavior and does that behavior help me or hurt me?
1:31:43You know, again, I speak in these very literal terms because I want no room for miscommunication, not because I always talk this way. But it's just easy basically, instead of using shorthand, I have to say longer sentences with more words to be more precise with language rather than just saying, yeah, I've been a human before.
1:32:00Of course, I feel stuff. Yeah. Of course, I do.
1:32:04But to the the point that we were making before, which is like, how?
1:32:09I think I said at the very beginning of this, people are very surprised by their lives. And they're like, I don't know how I got here.
1:32:15Why didn't why didn't these things work? It's because they're I think most people do not see reality accurately. And so they take action and they're like, that didn't work.
1:32:24And that's a lot of their lives is think that didn't go the way I thought it was gonna go. And it's because they have poor language to describe the world around them and they were taught with fake language and so everything's fuzzy, there are no sharp edges. And the more, again, we can only look at inputs and outputs, it simplifies the world to just a shocking degree and your ability to predict what's going to happen goes up dramatically.
1:32:45And so in thinking like, I'll give you a I'll give you a a very real marriage example of my worldview applied.
1:32:54So, Leila, if we get into a disagreement, sometimes we'll cry.
1:33:02Earlier on in our marriage, less so now, I'm not perfect. I'm imperfect. But earlier on in our marriage, I would get angry when she cried.
1:33:13And what would happen is like, I would try to console, nothing would happen. I try to console again, nothing would happen. And then I would get angry because I'm like, there's no winning, I can't do anything.
1:33:21And then I would escalate and then, you know, she would, you know, stop crying because now she's afraid. Right?
1:33:27Because I would get angry. And what's interesting is that I it took me time to realize and this is through this worldview that I she was like, why do you like, I I hate that you get angry when I cry.
1:33:41And the reason that I would get angry when she cried, I realized only later, was because it was the only thing that would get her to stop crying. And so I was reinforced for getting angry because it was the thing that got her to stop doing the crying.
1:33:55And so we think about these cycles within relationships of like, what is reinforcing this behavior, what is not reinforcing this behavior. The reason that people fight or get into these situations because they've been reinforced for fighting. Yeah.
1:34:04Like, my big why for everything is that we've been rewarded for doing so in the past. Either we had some bad thing that went away or some good thing happened as a result. That's it.
1:34:12Yeah. And the reward cycles, you don't have to be cognizant of them for them to work.
1:34:18What did you do? Because I have somebody in my life Mhmm. That I work alongside.
1:34:25Not my wife, by the way, because I feel like I say that. Everybody thinks it's my wife. Sure.
1:34:28But there's sure, buddy. Yeah. Sure.
1:34:31You guys have a long ride. Well, it's like, we're so honest about everything. If it was me, he'd say it was me.
1:34:35No. That's honestly true. That's that's not a lie.
1:34:38There's so many times where was like, no. It's me. My mom watches this podcast too.
1:34:41Right? Uh, but I have this thing. I I I did it the other day where I noticed.
1:34:46I was like, oh, this person doesn't hear me unless I snap. And so I wrote it down. I said, hey.
1:34:50I'm gonna snap, but I actually don't mean it. And I snapped, bro. Yeah.
1:34:53And they're like, no. I got it. And I said, dude, that's really shitty that I have to be the person that I'm running away from Mhmm.
1:35:00For you to be able to work with me here. Mhmm. That I feel like there's a lot of people that act in a way that they don't wanna behave anymore because they no longer know how to communicate with somebody they love without getting to that level.
1:35:15What did you do to get out of that?
1:35:18What would you like me to do next time to get you to stop crying? So just ask them? Yeah.
1:35:24Tell me what to do. I will do that. What did she say, if you don't mind me asking?
1:35:28Tell me I'm beautiful, tell me you love me, and tell me it's all gonna be okay. And hug me. Yeah.
1:35:35Makes sense. That works pretty good. Did that And how did you Crushes.
1:35:39Yeah. He sees me at a bank, and then they're just hugging a random guy.
1:35:46You're beautiful. I love you. I'd be like, road rage.
1:35:49Sorry.
1:35:51Yeah. And I think everyone has have has whatever that cheat code is. I mean, whatever yours is might be different, but like, it's I think and so we've just again, we share the same worldview.
1:35:59And that has made this so much easier because we use the same language to describe the world. And so when we had the realization that like I get angry when she gets sad because it gets her to stop acting sad, not that she stops being sad.
1:36:12Right? She stopped behaving that way. I was like, okay.
1:36:15You crying is becomes a code 10 red alert for me as a as a man. Like, if my wife is crying, basically nothing else in the world matters to me. It's just like, get this to stop.
1:36:24Whatever it is, kill the tiger or like, get it to stop. And then and so when she understood that it was it it like, it really bothered me that she cried, she still cries.
1:36:36It's fine. Because I I know I have tools now that I can Right? And so I felt powerless because I there was nothing I could do.
1:36:44And it was just because I was doing the wrong thing. And so, I'll give you a different translation I think might be helpful or interesting for the audience. One of the very first things that Leland and I did when we got married is we went through all the divorce rehabilitation, like courses for like the like, your marriage is in a crisis, what do you go through?
1:37:01And so we went through all these trainings and courses and seminars. So we could just be like, okay, well, what are all the things that end marriages? Let's try to avoid those.
1:37:08And That's smart. Yeah. Very analytical.
1:37:11Super helpful. Robot.
1:37:14We should join them. See how they fail.
1:37:17Avoid avoid failure.
1:37:19And China built you, didn't he? He's the mastermind behind this.
1:37:24And
1:37:25and so we created this thing. So, like, another classic marriage example.
1:37:32Why don't you love me? What do you mean I don't love you? I pay the bills.
1:37:36I take out the trash. I I go to work every single day. Like, I I clean up the the house.
1:37:44Like, what how how do you how can you say that I don't love you? It's like, well, that's that's not love.
1:37:50I define love as, oh, so I don't have to do all that stuff anymore and then I can do that list instead?
1:37:59And so we just made a cheat code of what is the perfect day for me to you? Just tell me what that day would look like.
1:38:05Is it a nice note in the morning? Is it a shoulder rub when we get home? Is it for me dinner cooked on the table?
1:38:12Like, what how how do you want me to show love? What is a perfect day? And I'm not saying that you're gonna like, just show me what perfect is.
1:38:19I'm not gonna hit it. Just show me what it is. And what was astonishing is when we actually wrote down what perfect day looks like, was like not that hard.
1:38:25Yeah. It was just do these things. It was like, oh.
1:38:27And I remember being like, this? This is it. And she was like, yeah.
1:38:31And I was like, done. Like, easy.
1:38:35I have time left over. What am I gonna do with my with my extra time? Right?
1:38:38Yeah. But again, it's translating these amorphous terms into into things that people can do. And so I think this has been a a point of great fascination for me because I've just been like, I don't know what that means.
1:38:49And not because I like, I'm a and I don't ask those questions because I wanna bother people. I ask it because, like, I genuinely don't know what that word means for you.
1:38:58And I wanna make sure what it means for you when you're saying is how I'm understanding it so we can communicate. Has this helped you in other relationships? Oh, it helps me in everything.
1:39:05Like, my cheat code on life is simply trying to ask people what they mean by that and then translating that so that we can actually communicate.
1:39:14Most conversations, people
1:39:16make face noise at each other That they don't understand each other. And then walk away. Dude, I noticed this.
1:39:22I noticed this all the time. I literally can't tell you how many times I walk away and I'll ask people in the group, what did you get out of this?
1:39:30It's like have you ever played a telephone game where somebody's listening to another thing? I'm like, was I in the same room as you guys? Yeah.
1:39:36Everybody's perspective is so different. And that's something that I just recently started applying for myself because if you do something and I think that I think I know what you meant by that or by that slight face that you made or the exhale that you made, I created this reality for myself that I believe. And I don't say anything to you about.
1:39:53Right? Even something that I might do in my marriage. Right?
1:39:55I think that he's upset by something, and I don't ask him, why'd you say this like this or that, whatever. So now you have this problem that he doesn't even know about, right, because he hasn't been communicated. And then that arises so many other problems afterwards.
1:40:07And so it's just like
1:40:09I do that a I'm not gonna lie. I do that a lot.
1:40:11I'll like, if like, for example, if you're if I feel like you're upset with this interview, I like putting my brain like, oh, he wants to wrap this up because of this, but it it it I just make it up. Yeah.
1:40:22So a lot of people go off of what they think that they know. Mhmm.
1:40:26Okay. So this is what I'm figuring this out. You just understood that and realized that, like, you just have to be the better communicator in the room.
1:40:34I try not to judge it by ranking of who's the best communicator, but it was more like, I just wanna understand what they're trying to tell me.
1:40:42And so You lead the communication. There's a purpose for you talking. You try to put him as a leader.
1:40:45You're leading the communication. There's a purpose. Yeah.
1:40:47Yeah. There's a Alpha. He goes, dude, what are you doing?
1:40:49I just I just ask questions. Yeah. That's like Teacher.
1:40:54Like, there's a purpose for you talking to me right now. What would you like me to do? Yeah.
1:40:58And so just ask you like, what would you I I one of the most common things I'll ask especially to like the leadership team, things like that, if I have a one on one where they come and say a lot of words at me, I'm just like, what would you like me to do as a result of this conversation? Because there was some there was some intention which I I would define as desired outcome.
1:41:15Right? Like, if I have good intentions, bad intentions, whatever Mhmm. But my intent for this is that I would hope your behavior changes in this way.
1:41:22Right? And so if we can just be really clear on that, then it gets so much of the noise of like, I feel this way and you said this thing, it's just like, just what would you like me to do?
1:41:32It's like, next time, can you just say, please? Easy. No problem.
1:41:37And if the thing that they asked me to do is somehow in conflict, they'll be like, I'm not willing to do that. So, what can we do from here? Mhmm.
1:41:44It just gets to the core of everything much faster and I think that in a world where there's endless communication, having filters to translate that into actual behavior is probably one of the highest value filters that you can have to predict reality and then also be able to take in data and know what to do with it.
1:42:01And so I'll give you a different example. This is a super business one. If I want to judge how good someone is at a job, I want to ask them or I'll ask them, like, so what metrics do you track to know that you're doing a good job?
1:42:12First question. And if someone has new metrics, it's gonna be tough. Let's say they have decent metrics.
1:42:18Alright? They they named five things, I'm thinking of seven, but they've got five of them. Okay.
1:42:22That's fine. The next question is, how does what you do change them?
1:42:28Because if you I mean, the first level of understanding is like, these are the outcomes. These are the variables that create the outcome. Great.
1:42:36How does your behavior affect the variables? If you can describe that, you'll likely be very competent at your job. It's very simple.
1:42:42But most people cannot do that, which is why most people are not competent. Like, competence is incredibly rare.
1:42:51Are you I feel like he's waiting. Why did he did he stare at me for so long after seeing that, dude? He says incompetence is extremely rare.
1:43:01And I was like It is rare. You know what else is rare? Common sense.
1:43:06So Yes. Yeah.
1:43:09Super interesting. So when you say common sense, the I've actually thought I've I've given some thought to this.
1:43:14Like, so when you say common sense, what do you think that means? Oh, lord. You walked I put myself there.
1:43:19I put myself deserved it. I didn't. I was just staring at him like this.
1:43:23And I and I say this in no way to try it. We know we know. I do it because but this is a perfect example of so two things.
1:43:29One is, I'm sure you've heard someone say like, does that make sense? Yeah. We are rewarded for immediately saying, yeah, totally.
1:43:35Mhmm. It has nothing to do with whether we actually understand it. We just know that when that sound comes out of someone else's mouth, we need to nod and say yes.
1:43:43That does make sense. Yeah. Right.
1:43:45Exactly.
1:43:48Dude, he hits us with some silence, dog. And I'm just like, what do I do? I've never been here before.
1:43:53What do I do? Do I answer? Do I sing with violin?
1:43:56What do I do?
1:43:57And so with common sense, of course, it's like common sense isn't that common. It's a it's a it's a it's a, you know, it's it's a funny it's a funny term, but I would translate common sense for most people as behaving the way that I would behave in the same condition. It's common sense.
1:44:13Behave the way that I would behave in that condition. Yeah. Because you're saying like you're saying Be like me.
1:44:20Do what I would true. Like yeah.
1:44:22Like, truth is subjective in a way. Like, right? Like, somebody is they're I wouldn't say truth is subjective.
1:44:27Belief system. Yeah.
1:44:30Their behaviors that they've been rewarded for doing so. They had a condition So their common sense is They acted differently. In this condition, you would act they do a in this situation.
1:44:38You would do b. You say they have no common sense. Yeah.
1:44:41You just learned a different lesson Yeah. Than they did in those same circumstances. I'll tell you a different story.
1:44:46I had, um, a teammate, um, who I've spent a lot of time with.
1:44:52I've mentored a lot. And amazing, amazing person in terms of their work as a human being, everything.
1:45:02And one day, they I realized that they had made a gigantic mistake, like huge mistake. Like a 10, you know, not 10 figures, like a $10,000,000 plus mistake.
1:45:13Like, real cost mistake. Yeah. And it was a younger person on the team.
1:45:18And I found out about it and I, you know, confronted them and I was angry.
1:45:26Because it's like, how could you not know this? This is ridiculous.
1:45:30Blah blah blah. Mhmm. And I could see how hurt, you know, the person was by this attack.
1:45:39And he, you know, was just like, I was just trying to do a good job. And I remember in that moment, I was like, I cannot hold you accountable to not knowing something that I should have taught you.
1:46:02It is my mistake, not yours. And so because I was the one who had taught him a lot of the role because I'd, you know, I'd I'd He built them up.
1:46:11Yeah. Exactly. You know, take them under my wing, etcetera.
1:46:13And so but it was a it was a great example of like he had no common sense, but it wasn't common sense. It was extremely rare sense, a rare sense that I have because I'm very good at whatever the thing is. Mhmm.
1:46:22Right? And so it's so unfair for me to say, you should have lived every single experience of my life and behaved exactly as I would have behaved except never having taught them that. Yeah.
1:46:31But we we talk about this all the time. Yeah. The way that I put it is don't punish the man,
1:46:37like, that's next to you that doesn't have what you have. Like, for example, if God gave you wisdom to understand that or walk through a life for you to have that ability, don't punish the man that doesn't have it.
1:46:47It doesn't make sense to punish him. He doesn't have it. So, it's like it's like God punishing us for not being God.
1:46:53It's impossible. I'm not God. I have to learn.
1:46:55And so, what I'm learning, I've also learned that what I have is given to me from God. So, who am I to punish another person?
1:47:02But how do you how do you separate this? Because that's still $10,000,000, bro.
1:47:06And also, like, I'm not emotional, but the first person I think about is all these people's mouths that could have been fed off of it. It was my fault? You just put it on your side.
1:47:14It was my fault.
1:47:17Well, then shame on you, bro. I was kidding. No.
1:47:19But it was my fault. Didn't know what to say. It was my fault.
1:47:21It was a 100% my fault. Are you guys still cool? Oh, a 100 a 100%.
1:47:25I mean, I said that in the moment after I was like You really This is my fault. Yeah. Like, saw there and it's like, like, it's so common that we will attribute to malice what is more commonly incompetence.
1:47:38And I say that in a formal sense not that anyone needs anyone's dumb. They just don't have whatever skill was needed.
1:47:43And if you and the thing is is in this the reason I stared at you the other the the moment a few minutes ago is that, like, you're obviously very competent at a number of things. And so what's difficult is that it took time and a lot of repetitions and probably some failures or many failures in order for you to gain that confidence.
1:48:00And then not expecting that it will take other people those repetitions and failures in order to learn it, makes it very difficult for people to succeed.
1:48:09You're very generous with your heart. Even though you're not emotional, you're very emotionally intelligent.
1:48:15You know what I mean? Like, really is. Yeah.
1:48:17Go ahead. I I find myself to be very emotionally intelligent, but listening to you, I'm like, oof.
1:48:24Maybe I'm not. Like, maybe I'm like, hey. Take a little step back then.
1:48:28Well, I had somebody I love look at me and they're like, I don't think you're emotionally intelligent. And I was like, me? And then, like, day by day, always come up to her and I go, I think I'm starting to notice a little bit.
1:48:38Like, I'm starting to notice a little bit more and more and more as I grow up. And, uh, I think that's it's super humiliating. Dog, I don't know if you feel this, but I've made a career off of just sharing my mistakes, and there's a there's a sense of freedom because I was like, okay, cool.
1:48:56Like, you're not gonna hold me accountable. Like, holding myself accountable. Like, I'm dancing in front of God naked and I'm doing my thing.
1:49:01The thing that I feel the most shame of is repeatedly making that same mistake in front of the world. Do you ever do that?
1:49:08Yeah. Of course. Like, what do you do to, like, build yourself up knowing that you're just, like, human?
1:49:13Are are you allowed to say that since you're AI? Or I don't say that. You just look at the mirror.
1:49:18You come on. You're almost human. It's fine.
1:49:21Um, how do I how do I get over repeating the same mistake? Yeah. Like, for example, you're like, with your wife.
1:49:28We'll make it personal, not business. Yeah. I bet it wasn't the next time she was crying.
1:49:32You're like, come here. You're beautiful. You know I mean?
1:49:35Like, it took time for you to, like, get there. But you make those mistakes because you're trying to get the better outcome, but you fall short.
1:49:41How do you not beat yourself up over it?
1:49:47One of my friends has a a quote I like a lot. He says champions have short memories.
1:49:53Just a bunch of goldfishes around you? Yeah.
1:49:56Really? It's like, does me beating myself up increase or decrease the likelihood that I'm gonna be able to succeed at this the next time this happens?
1:50:06You just move on. If it has no bearing, then who am I punishing myself for?
1:50:12But if it if me punishing myself increases the odds that I will behave better next time, then there's a purpose for it. I do think there's a purpose for guilt.
1:50:20I think there's a purpose for shame. It changes behavior. It's very strong emotion.
1:50:24Like, if if everyone in a group is behaving one way and they shame you, it's very pro survival to act the way the group does. So it makes sense that we would feel very affected by that, um, to conform because it's more likely that we will survive in a group than we will on our own.
1:50:39If you could be vulnerable, what would something that that's like, you don't feel like you're really talking about it too much, but that you're dealing with right now?
1:50:51What am I dealing with now?
1:50:55I think there is a cost to being in the public eye, obviously. I'm sure you're aware of it.
1:51:02And I think I alluded to earlier, like, changing your behavior in any way is something that I'll say this, I think I struggle like anyone else to and so if you're authentic, it means you have no fear of punishment, which means you're always the same in all settings.
1:51:21And I think that my life goal is to die with no secrets, is to die completely laid bare.
1:51:30And I think that shame exists only in darkness and never in the light.
1:51:37It always shrinks in the light when people are aware of it. And so, I mean, you described me as an honest man.
1:51:47I I I hope that at the end of my life I'm described that way, and I I aspire for that title.
1:51:57Um, I'm sure there are things that I could do better. And I I think about it like the whole truth.
1:52:04Like, you can state it's kinda like three levels of truth. It's like how how true is something.
1:52:10Like, I did this because of x, but also y and really z. Now, from a from a worldview perspective, I pay attention to zero of that and only pay attention to behavior because it massively simplifies the world and dramatically increases your ability to predict people's behavior.
1:52:29But from an internal feeling perspective, I feel best when I am call it my authentic self.
1:52:41And I think that the more I can merge reality with the public perception.
1:52:48But think the struggle that I had there, this is finally me finding the words for this, is that I try to demand complete understanding from a world that will give me none.
1:53:00And so, like, there will be clips that will be taken from this podcast that will be taken out of context and I hate that and I have to come to terms with it.
1:53:13And my way of thinking through it is like, will I allow this to change my behavior?
1:53:19And as long as I continue to make that answer no, I'm living in that with that virtue as I see it, but it does not negate the emotional discomfort that comes with it. And so one of the things Leila and I are talking about right now, so you ask like, what are you what are you dealing with right now?
1:53:33Which is acting despite, acting as if how can I continue in a path and living with emotional discomfort knowing that there is nothing wrong but that I will suffer and that is okay?
1:53:50And that I do not need to change things. I don't need to like because there's parts of me that get tons of like called energy from something not going the way I want it to go.
1:53:59Right? In whatever sense. And with that energy, I wanna turn tables and change everything.
1:54:06But I have to acknowledge that I'm trying to change the external world in order to change how I'm feeling about something and none of those actions might actually get me any closer to what I want. And so, it's basically sitting in the suffering and being okay with it.
1:54:20And I'll say that is that is the muscle that I'm trying to work right now.
1:54:27That's deep. Long suffering.
1:54:30Mhmm.
1:54:31A lot of leaders take that role.
1:54:39I hate to bring this up.
1:54:42It is a fruit of the spirit. I'm just I'm just saying.
1:54:46I'm
1:54:47just saying, bro. I gotta tie this back to this.
1:54:50The reason why there's so much on your plate, bro, that I look at and I'm like, my goodness, bro. Like, if I could just take half of that, my life would be so much different. I think there's a lot of things that I live by that I think would solve a lot of your things.
1:55:05And just to make it short, I say this at Tabelle all the time because I'll weep about this, bro. Like, I had this thing with the Eucharist.
1:55:13Uh, I said something The bread. The bread.
1:55:16The the body and blood of Christ. Oh, okay. I said something describing it in the word of creation, and I used the wrong word.
1:55:23And the whole world, bro, like but they had no idea my whole life Yeah. I would sit on my hands and knees exactly in the the Eucharist and and so I turned to Bella and I said, I danced naked in front of God alone, which means one day, I know that he will reveal Mhmm.
1:55:42All the things that, like, crush my heart. Like,
1:55:47splitting up with a friend knowing that they really don't understand why we're splitting up and they're Totally. It's a it's a perfect example of, like, a calm getting kicked in the nuts problems where there is no action to be taken. Can I give one little story about And I I wanna loop in?
1:56:00So I imagine I'll have a child soon, hopefully God will. When that happens.
1:56:05The perfect analogy I have is, let's say I have a Babe Ruth rookie card that's worth, you know, a million dollars. And somehow, the kid gets into the drawer and tears it up and writes, you know, crayons on it. It's one year old or two years old.
1:56:21What do you do in that moment? Abortion.
1:56:24So sorry. I'm so sorry. Good.
1:56:26You're asking a comic. I'm so sorry. Dude, you're good.
1:56:28So sorry. I'm I'm so sorry.
1:56:31That was rude. You're fine. Plan b.
1:56:33I literally exclusively consume
1:56:35stand up and gym equipment. That is my entire newsfeed. So you're totally good.
1:56:39But in that moment, there's nothing you can do.
1:56:44You're not going to teach a two year old about the intrinsic value of a Babe Ruth card. Right? Or maybe a one year old.
1:56:49Use whatever age, understanding personal property would not really be a real thing. Yeah. So those are just pure suffering problems.
1:56:56There's nothing that like, there's nothing to do. You just have to suffer. Yeah.
1:57:00And so it's those those moments where you want to turn tables, scream, you want to hit, you want to do whatever your your emotional outbreak is going to be and just thinking like, I will suffer and it will be fine.
1:57:13Can I say something that's gonna piss you off? Go for it. You've met a lot of Christians that say they're Christians and they don't act like Christians.
1:57:20Yeah. You're the first person I ever met that denounced himself as a Christian and acts more like a Christian than any of my friends that I know that I'm at church.
1:57:29So, honestly, bro, like, I don't care. I'm gonna start telling people you are Christian.
1:57:33I'm like, yeah. I'm a Christian friend? Are you talking about yeah.
1:57:35Of course, bro. Yeah. He's one of my biggest biggest Christian friends.
1:57:39Yeah. You you have a like I said, bro, like, you're everything that you sit in in your morals and the way you attack life is is it's inspiring to me, dude, and I read the gospel.
1:57:54I'm literally I'm watching it pop out the page. I'm like, I'm gonna get this one day. I'm gonna get this one day.
1:57:59And you're bro, imagine if you were a disciple. You'd be like, John, thinking about it too much. Take the emotional time.
1:58:07But, dude, like, yeah, I agree, man. I agree with everything you're saying and I think but also, is it there some sort of peace knowing that you could hold that type of, like, suffering and still love?
1:58:22Does that not reflect
1:58:23the crucifixion of Jesus Christ? Like, does it not? That's such a Such a tieback.
1:58:29I mean, it was just like the first part of the question I could say, yes. Think about this. Yeah.
1:58:33Worst thing in history to ever exist is the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. And at the same time, it is the greatest thing in the world is the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Our God doesn't take a bad thing and a good thing and try to mix them.
1:58:47He turns something that's hurtful and then produces life out of it.
1:58:53It's kind of like Lazarus. He raised the dead up. And so, the way that you're speaking just resonates so much of all these Christian values that I try to apply in my life, but you're just actively applying them in your life because it makes sense to you and it works and you get something out of it.
1:59:10It's producing things. I love Christianity.
1:59:12Yeah. I have no like No.
1:59:15I was just about it. No. I'm reminding you because you say you're you're a Christian.
1:59:32Rose to heaven. Does 95% do what it is? You're on that doctor Jordan Peterson cusp, dude.
1:59:37It's it's honestly astonishing to see it, bro. It's you know what I I I tell people I tell people this, when I meet people like you geniuses and I will consider you a genius.
1:59:46And you don't have to crown yourself that, but I do see yourself as a genius. Geniuses wrestle with their own wisdom to the point where they separate themselves from God because of their own logic, because of the way they weigh things out. And it makes sense, like, dude, everything that you're saying to me, I'm not looking at
2:00:00They'd be like, piss posh. This doesn't make sense. It makes sense.
2:00:04Because they take that you're saying makes sense to me. It makes sense. Because it takes blind faith
2:00:08in a way. Like, to believe is to, like, believe blind. You know?
2:00:12And I think, like, for me, what I I was gonna say in the beginning was that I really, really believe that the faith that I have was a gift. And I think that God gives us faith to believe. You know?
2:00:23And so when you ask him and I'm sure you've done it a million times when you were, you know, pursuing him, was to, like, ask him for that faith. You know? Mhmm.
2:00:30And I know I asked him. I pleaded with him, and I asked him, and I chased him. And he put obstacles in my way, and was like, what is this?
2:00:36This is not getting any easier. You know? But then I learned from them.
2:00:39And then and then yeah. And then sometimes it just leads you to that one little, lasting answer that might, like, flip the switch. You know?
2:00:45For me, was realizing I didn't have forgiveness in my life. And when I realized that I need to forgive a certain person in my life, then god opened my eyes, like, instantaneously.
2:00:55You know? You need to forgive. But no.
2:00:58I mean, it's the thing. Who are holding a grudge on? You know what I'm thinking I'm holding a leprosy.
2:01:02Just checking. Yeah. As I think Yeah.
2:01:04I'm She's absolutely right. It's like describing color to a color blind man. He could see it, but he can't feel it.
2:01:09Do you get what I'm saying? Was that wrong? No.
2:01:12I'm just a color blind man. You are? No.
2:01:15No. No. No.
2:01:16No. No. I thought you really were.
2:01:17I thought you really were. I was like, oh, that's so funny, dude. I I delete this part of the podcast.
2:01:22That's fine. We had three hours. That's fine.
2:01:25Just all the times. How did you feel?
2:01:28Did you feel like I was pushing too much faith here in this conversation, or do you feel like I think I invited it. Yeah. Yeah.
2:01:35You did invite it. No. I'm like, I enjoy talking about the topic.
2:01:40I I'm willing to talk about the topic despite the negative ramifications that will happen because I think there'll be more positive than negative, but there will be negative. And it's kinda like the the example you gave, obviously not the same as the crucifixion, obviously.
2:01:53But I'm saying that there there will be good and bad. And as long as, like fame is a simple a simple example of this, which is like fame has pros and cons.
2:02:04Yeah. There are more pros than cons, which is why you continue to do it, But there are cons.
2:02:11It's an and. It's not, is it good or bad? It's like there's it's both.
2:02:14There are costs. And I would imagine, like, we don't have children yet, but, know, when and if we have children, there will be there will be pros and there will be cons.
2:02:23Like, there will be trade offs. And so as long as the trades are trades we're willing to make, then we were doing at least to some degree of our own volition.
2:02:31Yeah. But, no, I do not think you were overly appreciated, at least.
2:02:37I did not gauge your intent as malicious.
2:02:40Is that because you don't ever gauge people's intent?
2:02:44I would say that I still gauge someone's intent in terms of do I think they are trying to make my life better? And then if that's true, then I can instruct them in ways to actually make my life better and change their behavior.
2:02:58If their goal is to make my life worse, then I hope that they are incompetent and in so doing make my life better, which happens surprisingly often.
2:03:10Does it ever hurt your heart watching somebody trying to do something bad to you, but then actually produces good fruit to you?
2:03:19Does it make you look at them differently? Like, you because I'm assuming you've worked with people that you know that don't have good intentions with you, but you let it slide because it's producing fruit for everybody. If someone were competent Yeah.
2:03:30And had malicious intentions, do I think that they would be successful in trying to hurt me? Well, yeah. Not even successful.
2:03:34I'm just saying the fact that you're watching this because you have more wisdom than the person at the table. So you're watching them trying to hurt you, but they're not succeeding. But in their mind, they think that they're getting one over you, but in reality, you're watching it all play out.
2:03:46That doesn't bother you that they that you, in your mind, know that they think they're getting one over you. It's a weird sense of satisfaction, actually.
2:03:54But you understood what I was saying here? No. I totally understand what you're saying.
2:03:56Thank god, dude. It took so long to get that out of my head. Does it does it hurt me that someone wants to hurt me?
2:04:01Yes. I think it's unfortunate, but I see that as, again, what I what I stated earlier, like, trying to demand absolute understanding from a world that we have not.
2:04:12Like, in a world of sixty second memes and clips, to expect people to have complete context on me and my life is ridiculous. And who am I to think that I deserve that?
2:04:24Yeah. That I'm putting myself on this pedestal that I should be everyone's everyone should have complete context over me, should have total understanding of all of the points and why I said it's like, it's ridiculous. Of course not.
2:04:33How do I have to read all of Proverbs to start behaving that way? And this guy goes, I don't believe in it, but this is how I should what's going on here, dude? I'm gonna go to heaven, and he's gonna be like, George, move it.
2:04:44Alex, come on in, buddy. Like, dude, tell them about me, dude.
2:04:49When I realized that, I think
2:04:51I'll call it the them, the public. I'm sure you've had some when you said you did the Eucharist mess up or whatever Yeah. I realized that there's a certain percentage of the population that is absolutely mentally unwell.
2:05:03And it's, you know, call it one percent, call it five percent. If you have a million people who follow you, one percent is a lot of people. Right?
2:05:11Yeah. And all of them actively being you are terrible and all these things because you remind them, they pattern recognize you from somebody else in their life that might have behaved similar, look similarly, talk similarly, whatever it is.
2:05:23Right? And so, like for me, if I were a wife beater and I am muscular and I look this way, I will remind some people of someone else that probably wasn't very nice.
2:05:35And it makes sense that their first reaction would be that way. And so do I hold it against them?
2:05:41I don't know. But what I've noticed is that whatever point you can make so if I said, I think men in general should probably work harder than they are, the natural reaction will be, so you think everyone should become a slave to work and money should be their god?
2:05:54If I say, hey. I think that it's worth, you know, taking time and enjoying the fruits of life. It's like, are you trying to make the young men soft?
2:06:01I think Taylor Swift had this acceptance speech where she talked about like her life through the albums that she made. I'm loosely paraphrasing.
2:06:08But she was like, okay. So I'm, you know, I'm I'm slutty. And so because I'm dating all these guys.
2:06:14And so then I stopped dating men and now I'm now I'm a hermit and I'm a a girl in the and and so she basically just shows how whatever she does, the opposite becomes the narrative. Mhmm. And so it just makes sense that people will create a certain narrative because they see you or anyone as potentially an extreme permutation of whatever value.
2:06:34And so they just naturally react as the equal opposite, which is functionally just making a straw man argument. But straw men are not real. And so understanding that they are attacking an idea that I agree with, as in, like, you should attack that idea.
2:06:50I also agree with you. That's not what I was saying, but I agree with you. And so I think that has helped.
2:07:00And then the other one is is actually asking myself, what if they're right? So I think we spend a huge amount of effort in, let's say, we receive public criticism for something and thinking like and we resist it. We're like, I'm not that way.
2:07:12That's not true. Because for sure, there are things that are just completely ridiculous. But there are times where's peep like, people will give you feedback and you're like, fuck.
2:07:20I think what if they're right? And I think sometimes just like the open acceptance of like, you know what?
2:07:27I can see why they would say that. I do come across kind of arrogant or whatever. Yeah.
2:07:32Uh, or on that podcast, I was a little short or maybe I was a little robotic or whatever. Yeah. And and but like, there's so much release, if you will, from like the emotional pressure of trying to fight
2:07:43all of these comments or things like that versus being Yeah. I didn't even notice it from that point. Yeah.
2:07:48You're you're, oh, wow. That's such a good way to deal with it without even really dealing with it.
2:07:56You're not angry and it's it's coming from a humble heart. It could be true.
2:08:02I'll I'll review it and I'll get back to it. That might be true. Do you do you get have like, I know this sounds really stupid, but do comments affect you at this point?
2:08:11I would say, I think they affect everyone who reads them.
2:08:19That's so funny, dude. So do you read them now? Or I do not read a lot.
2:08:23No. I do not read a lot. Do do you think that affects your work?
2:08:27No. And so that's actually it's a really it's a it's a really interesting point. I know we're going off in all sorts of directions.
2:08:32But
2:08:33Welcome to the George Ngo show, brother. Yeah. My ADD comes alive through the screen.
2:08:37Yeah. From from a content perspective, I actually think that
2:08:41there's a sweet spot of quote listening to the audience where, like, you need to not be tone deaf in terms of, like, giving people what they want, but at the same time, managing what you want.
2:08:52And so Taki is a friend of mine, says, you know, they're soulless corporations.
2:08:57They're starving artists. And I think the magic is in the middle. It's in the it's it's these dichotomies where it's like, they have to be managed, not solved.
2:09:04You have to like, you have to walk the middle path, which is like, I have to do things that feed me and I have to do things to feed the audience. And so I I tend to make better stuff when I just purely make it for me. But if I do that, I don't make enough stuff.
2:09:18And so it's that it's that balance between those things. I would say by and large, if I stick to the things that I know and I state the facts and tell the truth, which is the number one rule that we have in the marketing here, then I feel very confident about what we put out as long as we put out nothing that appears a certain way or gives an impression.
2:09:35So we will like, you'll note, like, if you ever consume our stuff, it's like if we ever if I ever say something to maybe be more persuasive, the goal is to state facts and then allow the facts to do the work. And if we don't have the facts, we need to go make the facts true.
2:09:47Like, what what would be the craziest thing that if if this were true, everyone would wanna buy this? Okay. Then let's make that true.
2:09:54We make it true, then they'll all buy. And that could be buying into an idea, it could be buying into a product, it could be buying into a person, doesn't matter.
2:10:09This is freaking, like That's like I mean, it's because it's so much that I wanna I wanna, like, dive into my own personal, like, business, but I'm like, I can't do that. People are gonna be like, dude, no one cares. Don't do that.
2:10:20Okay. Well, I'm gonna end this with one final question.
2:10:24We've gone through a lot. Really? I feel like just scratched the surface.
2:10:27And by the way, I could see you for another eight hours. I I love sitting with people that have my mind racing. And dog, mine's like my my my brain's actually exhausted right now, but it was it was racing.
2:10:37How do you how does a man kill his ego?
2:10:41I'll tell you if I do it. No. I don't think I mean, I So maybe translating that into how do so it's like, first, I'm thinking, okay.
2:11:02What does that mean? The three questions. What does that mean?
2:11:04How do I know that? Why does it matter? Right?
2:11:06But just starting at what does it mean? It's like, we would we say ego is just simply putting yourself above others?
2:11:14Because I think humility I think Chris what's his name? Chrishyansson? Something Chrishyansson.
2:11:20Starts with a k. I don't know. Something Christiansen said this.
2:11:23He's a Harvard Business professor. And he said, humility isn't decreasing your regard for oneself, but increasing your regard for others.
2:11:33And I really like that is because there's there's false humility. Oh, stop. You know, like, there's that.
2:11:40But I think the true killing of the ego happens less you trying to make yourself less important and more trying to make everyone else more important. I think that's more actionable and more useful.
2:11:51That's good. I like that. Bringing people up.
2:11:52Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, how do you bring as many people up as you possibly can?
2:11:57And I see so Socrates said this, but, basically, the only evil is ignorance. Now, again, you know, there's tree of knowledge.
2:12:05There's actually some parallels there that make sense. But if we see ignorance as true evil, like, that person only acted that way because they didn't know.
2:12:14They didn't live the life that I've lived. They didn't know like, they know not what they do.
2:12:18Mhmm. Right? They're evil.
2:12:20But I mean, dude, think about how many people would actually commit evil if they really knew. Right. You If had complete understanding.
2:12:25I don't think people do evil things out of evil intentions. Mm-mm. Right.
2:12:28I think a lot of people do bad things thinking it's good. Right. Your mom calling and ratting you out.
2:12:33Which is why the again, the intention thing I erased more or less in terms of my own life. But from an ego perspective, back to the point, if our goal is to quote kill the ego, it means that we like, the ultimate good would be that everyone has all knowledge.
2:12:49Because if everyone share shares the exact same context, exact same understanding, and maybe that's what heaven is, everyone knows everything, has the same shared context, and so there's complete understanding. There's no miscommunications ever.
2:12:59Everyone shares the same values, and there wouldn't be conflict. Yeah. But we don't live in that world.
2:13:04But I would say that in an effort to kill the ego, it's how can you bring as many people up as possible into their levels of awareness so that they know more.
2:13:14It's good having grace. It's a lot of grace. Sounds
2:13:18more eloquent than it probably is in practice for me. I I definitely No. I learned a lot here today.
2:13:24I would love to do another episode where we could have, like, the couples. Like, I would love to hear from your wife Oh, Layla's dream. If she if she would want to.
2:13:31Layla's a dream. She watches the podcast. She goes, I'm okay.
2:13:36Hard pass. I'm fine. No.
2:13:39I think you'll you'll find Leila just as, if not more interesting. That'd be great. She's She's even more robotic.
2:13:45She's
2:13:47these two are perfect human beings, dude. No. Leila's They don't need Jesus.
2:13:49They're what? Please don't.
2:13:52I know. Layla's real as fuck. Layla's real as fuck.
2:13:56Layla Layla's Layla's the shit.
2:14:00Layla's Layla's real people. Um
2:14:03Could you hear him? Yeah.
2:14:05Mhmm. Did you talk more? Yeah.
2:14:07And could you hear it? Because you were like, you said the most meaningful thing out of pocket. He's like, Layla.
2:14:12No. She's good. Yeah.
2:14:14No. Layla's Layla's real people. Um, she she has helped me become the man that I am, and she has overcome larger obstacles than I have.
2:14:28And witnessing her do that, in that I have learned of her. Amen.
2:14:33Iron sharpens iron. It's dude okay. I would love to ask you this because you have a lot of material things.
2:14:40Is it not a good wife the greatest gift ever? Pretty sure Solomon says that.
2:14:47If you if you chirp the bible at me one more time,
2:14:51dog, I'm gonna throw you in a pool and baptize you right now, dude. No. A 100%.
2:14:58I mean, because to be fair By the way, he did. He did. He got that right.
2:15:02I was like, every time he says it, he says it right too. But, yeah, you're right. No.
2:15:06Layla, uh, but Layla also believed in me before I had anything.
2:15:10And so I think that is why it's the gift.
2:15:13I didn't get to hear your story from your mouth, but yesterday, last night Two, three o'clock in the morning?
2:15:20By the way? I'm sitting with my buddy and I was like, so what's your favorite part? Like, tell me, like, what hits your heart the most?
2:15:27Dude, he reenacted you and your wife because he's an actor. And he's like he was sitting there and he's like, leave me.
2:15:34This business is not doing well. And she's like, if you're under the bridge, I'm sleeping under the bridge. And his eyes started getting glistening.
2:15:41I was like, dude, do you want to do this motherfucking sound? Like, it seems like you really want it.
2:15:47Yeah. That story you told seriously impacted him.
2:15:50Like, it it impacted his heart. Could you break this story down for me? Like, in a way, it's coming from your mouth?
2:15:55Yeah.
2:15:58You. You're good, you're good. Yeah.
2:16:04I asked so I met Leila. She had a successful business. She was a personal trainer.
2:16:08She had a book of clients. She was doing fine. I, at the time, had, I think, four or five Chims, I can't remember.
2:16:14And I kept telling her, like, let me just leapfrog you. Like, know where you're trying to go.
2:16:19Like, I'm I'm further ahead. I'm older than Leila is. And, like, I'll just I'll just take you with me.
2:16:24And so she kinda kept saying no in the beginning. She's like, I just met you, blah blah blah, and then eventually got her to literally just destroy her business and then join me. And then the new business that I did after she gave up her business failed.
2:16:38And so I put all the money of taking my gym, sold them all, put all the cash into the new business, and that business failed. And she had left everything for that. And so then I had to go meet her parents, uh, at this moment.
2:16:55We're now living at her parents' house. Sick. Um, Yeah.
2:17:00I'm the the guy she met on the Internet. I'm Bumble. Yeah.
2:17:04Yeah. That that that convinced her to leave her job slash, you know, her income and then gallivant across the country launching gyms out of motels.
2:17:16And, no, we had one motel room because we did not have money for two motel rooms. And so her parents were not thrilled about me. And so I'm coming the opposite of the triumphant hero coming coming back.
2:17:29And when the first so I've lost everything two times.
2:17:35The first time is this time.
2:17:40I put all that money into the this new business, and the long story short is that, um, the money the partner that I had at the time ended up draining the bank account. And then I confronted him and he said that I was stealing and I was like, well, let's see.
2:17:53Like so then I took the fund because I had a mentor and he was like, just take the financials, go line by line and just show him, like, it's fine. Like, just figure it out. So I went there having highlighted everything and be like, hey, let's just go through this line by line and then he like dusted it off the table and said, I don't need to see that shit.
2:18:05I was like, oh, I got robbed. Holy cow. This is totally not what I I didn't think this happened.
2:18:12And so and that was after selling all my gyms. So like, it was the money that I had that I put there and then got trained. And so then Leila went to launch a gym on her own because that was the only business that was working.
2:18:25This is after I have the hard conversation. She's like, hey. What if we did that one thing that worked?
2:18:30Um, I also got a DUI head on collision right in and around this time too. Winner. Uh, my mom's in the hospital at the time.
2:18:38Um, and so I'm very stressed. And so all of this is in ninety days. So Oh, who's the only I have?
2:18:44I get a DUI. My mom's in in in the hospital. Um, and,
2:18:50yeah, that's that was my situation. And so fact that you wanted to look to add one more, I was like, dude, give me anxiety just counting down.
2:18:58I'm going through finger by finger. I was like, dude, enough. So I so obviously, at this point, I have have nothing.
2:19:05And she also asked six of her best friends from high school to quit their jobs to start this business, to do this new launching business with me. And so she then does this launch, crushes it.
2:19:16I also break up with her before she goes and does this launch.
2:19:22And so she still goes Why? Still crushes it. She actually asked me, she's like, do you still wanna be with me?
2:19:27And I was like, I don't I like I was like, I don't even have man, I can't even comprehend a relationship right now. And she was like, got it.
2:19:36And so we still talked every day, but, like, we had officially, quote, broken up. Mhmm. But she went there, and honestly, a big part of what made me see Leila's strength was that she could have 100% been like, screw this guy, this winner that I just picked up from jail for a DUI after quitting everything and all of that.
2:19:58And then she goes and does this launch and sets the all time record. She just crushes it. And all of that money went to paying back the refunds from the gym that all the money got stolen out of.
2:20:09So I'm still at zero, but it was it was what allowed me to be at zero. I would have been negative.
2:20:16So, wait. I'm so sorry. So you kicked her to the curve Yes.
2:20:19And with her stack of money No. No. Wait.
2:20:22It wasn't her I mean,
2:20:23she made money for the business. She had a commission because she was a sales rep that I technically hired. And so, you know, we had an agreement for which you would get paid.
2:20:31There was excess. All of the excess is what I was able to take to put towards this business that was now leaking money. Got it.
2:20:37Got it. Got Because the money that would have been there to capitalize the business was gone. Got it.
2:20:40So that is now zero, but I was able to basically successfully close that business because the partner that was supposed to be my partner walked away with the money. Was like, don't wanna like, the agreement that he and I had was Yeah. Like Yeah.
2:20:48He was gonna run the gym. He didn't run the gym. And now I'm stuck with all these clients.
2:20:51There's no cash in the account. Can't pay payroll, etcetera. So that's that's the situation.
2:20:59A few weeks later, we're supposed to launch six gyms. This is one. We're supposed to launch six gyms, and the cash that we're supposed to make from the sale and the cash that we're supposed to make from the launch was supposed to then capitalize this new business with six locations launching.
2:21:12I had zero. At a thousand. And so I'm now flying to her parents' house because it's Christmas time.
2:21:19Are you guys back together now? Yeah. So she comes back.
2:21:22Well, bro,
2:21:23fill us on the romance, bro. Yeah. Just giving past that.
2:21:26How did you guys rekindle the romance?
2:21:33I honestly can't remember.
2:21:35So it wasn't really fizzled out to I mean, talked every day. Yeah. And then I think when she came back, I was like, would you like to get back together?
2:21:42And I think she was like, yes. So I was like, okay. Great.
2:21:44We have all the stuff that we have to do. Yeah. No.
2:21:47I have to get to work. Yeah. But so she came back.
2:21:51We got back together. I took the cash, paid off the, basically, the debts that that business owed, and then we had to launch the next six gyms that all of her friends had quit their jobs for.
2:22:01And so we fly back to her hometown because it's Christmas time, and we stay at her parents' house. And I have to turn on ads for six locations.
2:22:15I've got hotels, airfare, rental car, ad spend. It's about $3,300 a day.
2:22:20I have a thousand dollars total that's going out. And, basically, right before I do that, I sit down with her and I'm like, okay.
2:22:33So, you know, that business idea that you left everything for, this is probably going to go horribly wrong, and it's very unlikely that this will succeed.
2:22:45I have the I still had an Amex card that still had my old limit from all the gyms that I had. So Amex hadn't updated my limit because I had no money. They weren't aware of that.
2:22:54And so I still had around, like, a $100,000 limit because I had multiple occasions that I could put on this card. And so I was like, I'm gonna put the whole thing on this card, and it really might not work out.
2:23:06And so I would be totally okay, and I would respect you if you wanted to leave right now. Like, it's it's understandable.
2:23:14Like, and we will be good, and we I'll honor our agreement. You can still do the launches and get paid all that stuff. And that was when she looked at me and grabbed my chin, and she was like, would sleep with you under bridge if it came to that.
2:23:26That's
2:23:27true love. She really loved you. Yeah.
2:23:30If she were here, she'd be like, was just out of fucking options. You know? Yeah.
2:23:33Alright.
2:23:34Dude, what a beautiful story, man. It's a gorgeous story. Dude, awesome, bro.
2:23:38And I I pray that you guys have soon to be a child, but I pray that you guys have a blessed family. For sure, man.
2:23:44And I'll be on your door every day. Hey. Is it today?
2:23:47Did you find Jesus? Yeah. Got the good news.
2:23:50Doing good. Got the good news, bro.
2:23:52But, dude, that was a that was an incredible story, man. Now, I understand why he was like, oh, he was so into it.
2:23:59Was like, bro, I'm leaving now. Dude, that is a five minute story. The it's honestly 10 times worse and 20 times longer.
2:24:06It's insane. The story is nuts. I'm sure I'm It's nuts.
2:24:10Like, I told you about the first time I lost the money. Not this the not the This time is only the one. Yeah.
2:24:15Yeah. Like, it it's it's insane. It's truly insane.
2:24:18Am I allowed to hear the next time, or is this like a No. It's it's I don't I don't wanna bore the audience. Um, but No.
2:24:23There's not one minute that I've been bored so far.
2:24:26What are saying? You guys really have, like, an inseparable bond. Like, the things that you guys have been through have built this this strength between you guys at this point.
2:24:34Right?
2:24:36She and I have built a lot of loyalty and mutual understanding. Um, and I think that in some ways, it's a like, you think I think with this business term, but, like like, you want, like, moats for a relationship.
2:24:48Like, what are things that are, like, irreplaceable? Moats? Yeah.
2:24:51Like, competitive moat in a business, something that other people can't, like, assail. Like, if you had a moat in a castle, it's hard for somebody to attack it.
2:24:59Are you lost? I don't know what a moat is, but I can understand what you mean. A moat?
2:25:03I know exactly what you mean. Yeah. Yes.
2:25:05Yeah.
2:25:07So it's like Leila Leila has this quippy quote where she says, there's always reasons to leave a relationship. You just have to have more reasons to stay.
2:25:16Mhmm. And so I think that this is one of those, like, reasons to stay, which is that we will never be able to be who we were then and be with someone else.
2:25:29Because no one it would be unlikely that someone will be able to meet me, but what's impossible for someone to meet me without the track record that I have right now, even if I lost it all, I'm still me. Yeah.
2:25:39I still have the story. I still, like, I still have that. And the same thing for her.
2:25:43And so, like, no one will ever be able to be with me on the come up. No one will ever be able to have blind faith in me like she did. Yeah.
2:25:52And so I think Yeah. And I think that's what I think, like, this is a a message to women which I'm barely able to make, obviously being Yeah. And watch yourself by the way.
2:26:01Yeah.
2:26:02Tread lightly. If
2:26:04you want to get undying loyalty from a man, believe in him.
2:26:11Like and he will move the world.
2:26:16That's snap facts. I think the I think a lot of times the potential of a man is is directly proportional to what his wife thinks that he can achieve.
2:26:25Totally, ma'am. Dude, I can't even tell you.
2:26:29I I I tell people all the time I I would not be who I am if god didn't bless me with Belle. Like, not just pouring love into me and believing in me, but giving me a reason to get back up.
2:26:44I think that if I didn't meet her and, you know, you said something that sparked something in me. You said she's gone through way more.
2:26:51Oh. Bro, how blessed are we, bro?
2:26:54Because I have the same measurement here. Like, when I hear her about what she goes through or what I went through, I'm like, oh, well, I gotta stop complaining.
2:27:01Like, this is like she has a reason to complain, but she never complains. She never complains. Always the most positive, always the most bright.
2:27:09And, uh, having a woman I I tell I tell this, and I do give advice to women, and I do it all the time, and I don't care. And you better listen.
2:27:20Okay. You a woman is either an anchor or wings.
2:27:26They're never in the middle, man. It's either that girl is bringing you down and down hard, bro, or she's giving you wings and you're flying at levels you've never flown before.
2:27:36Layla's your wings. I said, choose your wings.
2:27:40Oh, yeah. No trees. It's Layla.
2:27:42Right? It was cute. Yeah.
2:27:43Yeah. Yeah. I thought I called her name wrong.
2:27:44No. No. He said, what?
2:27:45And I was like, oh my god. Oh my god. I was like, am I did.
2:27:49A mistake. That's so funny. No.
2:27:51You're good. Dude, thank you so much. And I know we've wrapped this up before, but I I do This for real estate.
2:27:55Yeah. This is for Rema. Yeah.
2:27:56Thank you so much. Appreciate you. Yeah.
2:27:58You're so good. That's awesome.
The Hook

The bait, then the rug-pull.

George Janko opens by handing Alex Hormozi the keys to his own confusion — what is the one thing that stops a man from growing his business — and admits the questions are really for himself. What follows is less an interview than a live diagnosis, where every business answer keeps resolving into the same blade: stop grading people on their hearts and start grading them on what they actually produce.

CTA Breakdown

How they asked for the click.

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