1:09:34Jeremy Haynes · Interview
Watch Me LIVE Fix This $500K/Mo AI Automation Business In 69 Mins
A live audit where one ignored stat — a 1.5% opt-in rate — is revealed to be silently cutting every downstream metric in half.
June 3rdThe argument in one line.
When you're already at $550K/month with a 60% close rate and a 6x ROAS, the constraint is never funnel optimization — it's the higher-leverage funnel you keep finding reasons not to build.
Read if. Skip if.
READ IF YOU ARE…
- You run a high-ticket info or done-for-you offer and already have at least one paid funnel converting above a 3x ROAS.
- You manage a setter or closer team and have ever blamed lead quality for a revenue drop without checking the data first.
- You're stuck at a revenue ceiling and suspect you're working in the weeds instead of on the highest-leverage unlock.
- You want a real-time case study with actual revenue numbers, ROAS figures, and team KPIs on the table — not a hypothetical framework talk.
SKIP IF…
- You're pre-revenue or just getting your first paid campaign off the ground — the problems discussed here assume an established sales infrastructure.
- You're in e-commerce; the entire model is built around call funnels, setters, and closers.
- You want a clean step-by-step tutorial; this is an unscripted live audit with tangents and interruptions.
The full version, fast.
A $550K/month trading algorithm operator sits down with his inner circle coach for a live breakdown. His VSL call funnel was running at an 8x ROAS until he listened to his sales team's lead quality complaints, added a timer to the funnel, and watched volume crater 60% — dropping ROAS to 3x. He recovered to 6x by revamping the setter team, but has spent two months obsessively optimizing the call funnel while neglecting a DM funnel making $55K/month and a webinar strategy his coach says could add $250K/month. The core diagnosis: a high-agency founder who excels at fixing things in the weeds needs funnel owners — one direct report per funnel — so he can operate at the level where the biggest revenue moves actually happen.
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Create a free account →Who's talking.
00:27hostJeremy Haynes
01:35guestRohan
Where the time goes.
00:00 – 01:00
01 · Cold open — the $250K reveal
Clips from later in the session used as cold open: coach telling guest there's $250K/month on the table; guest admitting he's been avoiding building the webinar.
01:00 – 06:00
02 · Business overview
Guest (Rohan) introduces his trading algorithm offer: $550K/month revenue, 65% organic YouTube, 35% paid, 60% net margins. Transitioned from course model to done-for-you algo.
06:00 – 13:00
03 · The 8x to 3x ROAS collapse
Rohan explains how he added a timer to his VSL to improve intent, which killed volume by 60% — dropping ROAS from 8x to 3x. The sales team had been complaining about lead quality while the funnel was at its peak.
13:00 – 18:00
04 · Lie to your salespeople
Host introduces narrative management: test lead quality complaints by telling reps you fixed things without making changes. If they report improvement, the problem was belief-anchoring, not lead quality.
18:00 – 24:00
05 · Recovery and current ROAS
Rohan explains the path back to 6x: new setter team, stricter KPIs, more competitive environment. Still hasn't returned to 8x due to intentional choice to run cleaner, less aggressive ads.
24:00 – 32:00
06 · Capacity planning math
Host draws bar graph model on whiteboard: current spend vs. calls per day, capacity ceiling, 25% weekly scale increments. Introduces stick rate (70%) and hire lead time (2 weeks) as variables in scaling math.
32:00 – 37:00
07 · Sales metrics — the numbers are already good
63% show rate, 60% close rate, $75-100 cost per call. Host points out these are above-average and the guest is solving a non-problem — the real bottleneck is elsewhere.
37:00 – 45:00
08 · DM funnel neglect + pixel conditioning
DM funnel generates $55K/month (10% of revenue) but has received no attention. Host pushes on why. Discussion of pixel conditioning via ManyChat tags and a new Meta alpha feature for qualifying DM conversations.
45:00 – 56:00
09 · The webinar intervention
Host draws a weekly call volume chart with three curves: call funnel (daily consistency), DM funnel (daily consistency), webinar (spiky but high). Makes the case that one organic webinar per month could add $250K in revenue.
56:00 – 1:00:00
10 · The chunk method and diversification
Host explains the chunk method: revenue at scale comes from multiple distinct sources. Over-reliance on organic (65%) caused the collapse. Three funnel types provide downside protection.
1:00:00 – 1:05:00
11 · Funnel owners and the delegation imperative
Host diagnoses the real bottleneck: Rohan is too in-the-weeds to pursue high-leverage moves. The fix is hiring one funnel owner per channel so he can operate at the level where only he can act.
1:05:00 – 1:06:47
12 · Close — the webinar epiphany
Guest has the realization live: the webinar was the right move all along. He previously launched one for his course offer and it added 30% to monthly revenue. He commits to acting on it.
Lines worth screenshotting.
- A salesperson's complaint about lead quality is a hypothesis, not a fact — test it by telling them you fixed the problem without doing anything and watching if they report improvement.
- Adding an intent filter to a funnel that's already converting at 8x ROAS is almost always wrong — you're solving a problem your closers have, not a problem your business has.
- Setters who make too much money stop working hard; the solution isn't to pay them less but to keep them competing for calendar space at every level of scale.
- Reactive hiring — waiting until you hit capacity before recruiting — can reduce your annual scale opportunities from 40 to fewer than 8.
- A 70% setter stick rate means you need to hire five to keep three; build that math into your scaling model before you need the headcount.
- Show rate and close rate are lagging indicators — if both are already above average, staring at them harder is avoidance, not optimization.
- Every dollar spent recovering a broken funnel has an opportunity cost measured in the higher-leverage thing you didn't build while you were fixing it.
- Organic traffic produces leads so well-framed that paid call funnels work even in high-skepticism niches like trading — but it makes the business fragile when organic dips.
- The 'chunk method' says revenue at scale comes from 3-5 distinct sources; any single-chunk business is one algorithm change or ROAS drop away from a crisis.
- A webinar to a warm organic audience closes so easily it's not a fair comparison — use it to get reps before running it to cold paid traffic where the real revenue ceiling is.
- When a founder keeps fixing the same funnel they already fixed, they're usually not protecting the business — they're protecting a feeling of control.
- Daily lead flow (call funnel + DM funnel) provides closers consistent calendar volume; webinars add spiky volume but the spike is large enough to matter.
- The best time to pressure-test whether you trust a direct report is before you need them — hire ahead of the ceiling, not after you've already stalled.
- Pixel conditioning on DM ads — signaling qualified vs. unqualified conversations back to the platform — is available as an alpha feature and can improve optimization targeting significantly.
- A $250K/month opportunity that takes one organic webinar to test is not a risk calculation problem; it's a prioritization problem.
The real bottleneck is the funnel you're not building.
WHAT TO LEARN
Optimizing a funnel that's already working is comfortable; building the next one requires tolerating uncertainty — and that distinction explains most revenue plateaus.
- When a paid funnel is running at a strong ROAS, the data in front of you is real; your team's subjective complaints about lead quality deserve a validation test before you act on them.
- Telling a sales team you fixed a problem — without doing anything — and watching whether their performance improves is a legitimate diagnostic, not a manipulation tactic.
- A show rate above 60% and a close rate above 60% are not problems. Obsessing over them when the real gap is in a missing funnel type is a form of avoidance dressed up as diligence.
- Every week spent recovering a broken funnel has an opportunity cost. The question is not just 'can I fix this?' but 'what am I not building while I fix this?'
- Sales team capacity needs to be modeled and managed ahead of demand — mapping spend increases against calls-per-day, factoring in hire lead time and stick rate, so you're never caught recruiting reactively.
- Revenue concentrated in one traffic source (65% organic in this case) is fragile by design. The answer is not to eliminate that source but to add distinct funnel types that don't share the same failure mode.
- A webinar to a warm audience converts so easily that it serves as low-risk practice for running the same presentation to cold paid traffic, which is where the real revenue ceiling is.
- The highest-leverage thing a founder can do at a certain scale is find people who can own each funnel — not manage it, but own it — so the founder's limited attention goes only to decisions no one else can make.
- The trigger for building something new doesn't need to be a crisis. The evidence that it's the right move can already be visible in the data; the delay is almost always about comfort, not information.
- Diversifying into three funnel types provides real downside protection: if one funnel collapses, the others sustain cash flow while you fix it, instead of the entire business contracting at once.
Terms worth knowing.
- VSL call funnel
- A paid ad funnel that routes prospects through a video sales letter before booking a sales call. The VSL pre-sells the offer so closers handle fewer objections on the call itself.
- DM funnel
- A paid ad strategy that drives prospects into a direct message conversation — usually through a lead magnet — where setters qualify them before booking a sales call.
- ROAS
- Return on ad spend. If you spend $1,000 on ads and generate $6,000 in revenue, your ROAS is 6x. The primary metric used here to evaluate paid funnel health.
- Setter
- A sales team member responsible for initiating contact with leads, qualifying them, and booking them onto a closer's calendar. Distinct from a closer, who handles the actual sales call.
- Closer
- A sales team member who takes booked appointments and converts qualified prospects into paying customers on a one-on-one call.
- Show rate
- The percentage of booked sales calls where the prospect actually shows up. Industry average is typically 50-60%; above 70% is considered strong.
- Close rate
- The percentage of calls that result in a sale, measured against prospects who actually showed up. A 60% close rate means 6 out of every 10 people who show up buy.
- Pixel conditioning
- Sending behavioral signals back to an ad platform's pixel — e.g., marking which DM conversations were qualified — so the algorithm can optimize toward higher-intent audiences over time.
- Stick rate
- The percentage of newly hired sales reps who stay on the team past their initial ramp period. A 70% stick rate means roughly 1 in 3 hires will not work out.
- Narrative management
- Deliberately reframing a team member's belief about their situation — in this context, telling salespeople that lead quality was fixed (without making changes) to see if their performance improves through changed expectations rather than changed conditions.
Things they pointed at.
43:00toolMeta DM pixel conditioning (alpha feature)
Lines you could clip.
13:13
“Sometimes all a salesperson needs is what's called narrative management.”
13:28
“Tell them that we made these changes, but we didn't actually do shit.”
15:13
“What the brain tries to seek, it finds.”
52:52
“Out of the two, which should you put attention on? The webinar.”
59:24
“You are technically best when you're paying attention to one thing at once.”
59:32
“You need to find somebody who's like an entry-level you.”
Where the conversation goes.
01:00 – 06:00steadyBusiness model overview
06:00 – 13:00denseROAS collapse diagnosis
13:00 – 18:00denseSales team psychology / narrative management
24:00 – 32:00denseCapacity planning and scaling math
32:00 – 37:00steadySales metrics review
37:00 – 45:00steadyDM funnel + pixel conditioning
45:00 – 56:00denseWebinar strategy and revenue unlock
56:00 – 1:00:00steadyDiversification and the chunk method
1:00:00 – 1:05:00denseDelegation and funnel ownership
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00:00You know there's 250 k a month just laying there on the table for you, and I I bet you're being conservative based on what I know about your math and how you've predicted things in your past for yourself. I'm avoiding
00:09building up the webinar, and if I want to truly push this business upwards, it's not gonna be from being in the weeds at the level that I am. What's in the future to consider is to lie to your salespeople.
00:19Out of the two, which should you put attention on? The webinar. Okay.
00:27Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another business breakdown video. Today, we've got Rahan here, and we're gonna be breaking down his business, what he's got going on, revenue numbers, potential, what he should do, what he shouldn't do, all that fun stuff.
00:40If you're new to the channel, all we do around here is talk about cracking million dollar months, whether it's the first million a month or the next million a month. We just talk about lessons from people who have been there, done that, and hand them down to you sitting here on this channel. This is one of our Inner Circle members.
00:53He's been with us for about a year. Yeah. Probably about coming up on year.
00:57Um, and we're gonna be breaking down the business, what he's got going on, try to give him some actual advice he can take home and try to make some more money. Just to be clear, there's a point 1% probability that you ever go and crack $10,000,000 a year, let alone the even smaller probability than that that you'd ever go and crack million dollar months, a k a $12,000,000 a year.
01:15And the even smaller probability than that, you'd ever do a couple million bucks a month. This is not in any way, shape, or form to imply you're gonna watch this and go home and make some income. This is simply put, just hit lessons, entertainment, and education purposes exclusively.
01:27So without further ado, let's dive in. Alright. First of all, you wanna introduce yourself to the people?
01:31Yeah. Absolutely. Uh, my name is Rohan.
01:33We run a
01:35I have tons of different businesses, but for this specific business that we're gonna be talking about today that we joined Jeremy's, uh, inner circle for, This is a trading offer. So we're in the trading space. Obviously, that comes with its pros and its cons, but we Info offer.
01:47Right? Yeah. Info.
01:48Correct. And we've transitioned it previously. Last year, we were running a similar course model to what a lot of traders were doing, but we've transitioned it away from the course model and more to a done for you automated trading algorithm style model.
02:00So we launched that in November of last year, and then we've been running that offer ever since. And we made some tweaks to it as we, uh, have continued to, you know, grow and scale it up, but the traffic primarily comes from a mixture of organic YouTube, and then paid ads in the form of a VSL call funnel, and a DM funnel through our organic personal brand that we run for this specific business.
02:20So you have organic channels, mainly YouTube. Correct. And then what are you doing for paid right now?
02:25We have a VSL call funnel, and then we have an organic DM funnel as well that we've historically run. We previously ran that with the the course offer, and then we ripped a very similar style funnel for the algorithm offer that we transitioned to.
02:37Got it. And then in terms of total revenue, you got a DM you got a DM funnel,
02:41and you have a call funnel. Yeah. And out of these two different things, what's the total revenue that comes from the business right now in the most recent months?
02:49Right around right around a little bit above half 1,000,000 a month. So Okay. Got it.
02:54Right around there. Like like, 500 and some change? Yeah.
02:56Exactly. Okay. $5.50?
02:59Yeah. Right around there. I would say that that's that's a a recent average.
03:02Okay. Has it ever been higher? Yeah.
03:04In, uh, the first three months of the year, we were topping out right above 650 k a month, $607,100,000 a month in revenue.
03:12And then in the most recent months, due to some issues with some paid ad stuff and organic channels and lead volume slowing down a bit, it's come down a little bit since then. Understood. And then what margin are you operating at on this $5.50 that you're averaging right now?
03:25We'd say that about 65% of the revenue comes from organic, and around 35% comes from paid. So obviously, organic has limited expenses.
03:34We have sales team, we have software fulfillment costs, and then the rest is take home, so the margins are really nice on the this specific offer. Sure. 65% of your 65% of their revenue comes from organic.
03:44Got it. Correct. And so the other 35 Which is honestly not really where I'd like to be for this specific offer, because organic has its volatility, and that's part of the reason why we had a extremely or or a more successful first few months of the year, and then things have dwindled down.
03:57It's because organic comes with its, you know, highs and its lows. So my goal coming into, you know, the next quarter and throughout these next months is to switch the model from a less organic model to a more pay driven model, understanding that there's gonna be a you know, you're gonna sacrifice the margin by doing so, but it's gonna be a lot more sustainable for the future in that regard.
04:17So Nice. Makes sense. And what what are you netting out of the gross revenue that you got right now?
04:21Like, what percentage do you think you're pulling at? 70. Okay.
04:24Cool. Well, I mean, yeah, from yeah. Right around right around 60.
04:2760 to 70 percent, I'd say. Okay. We can just say 60%.
04:30Yep. We're so have about 60% margins on this. That's good.
04:32Yeah. So you're netting about 300 ish a month then out of this five fifty, which is good. 65 coming from YouTube, 35% coming from paid.
04:40And then out of that 35% that comes from paid, what's the split of DMs versus call funnels? Out of the 35% of the revenue, DMs are one third of that, so DMs would be about 10%, and the rest would be coming from call funnel. Okay.
04:52Got it. So 10%, 25%. Okay.
04:55Cool. Sounds good. And then
04:57out of this, when you say that your initiative is to get more from paid and less from organic, just mainly due to the risk of getting it all from organic, what's preventing Let's dig into this paid stuff real quick because obviously there's something preventing that from occurring. Either you just started paid, you haven't pushed paid up high enough to exceed the organic ratio, or at least diversify against that.
05:16What's paid ROAS look like for each one of these funnels right now? From the DMs, we get about a four to five x, and then from the call funnel, I think we're sitting around very similar four to about a 5.6, I wanna say, on the last go around for our VSL call funnel. Our VSL call funnel historically was very, very profitable, and then there was some changes that I made to the funnel based on some feedback that I was getting from my sales reps that caused the ROAS to go from about an eight x down to a three x, and then we changed it back, and we got performance a little bit more stable around a five five to six x, I wanna say.
05:47What was the feedback that you were getting from the team when you were at eight x? So when we were at eight x, we had a ton of volume coming in, and that was one of the reasons why we were able to, uh, push it so high.
05:58Because my I had my sales team, and the sales team rose to the occasion of dealing with the vast majority of leads were coming in off ads that were, I guess, a little bit more aggressive in the terminology of how they were phrased. So the quality of the leads was hit or miss for sure. The sales team was telling me, hey.
06:15The lead quality is not there for us to continue. We're having calendars that are booked out with leads that are unresponsive, a high no show rate. But while you're at an ADX.
06:23Correct. Well, the the ROAS was fantastic. The sales team and the the conversations I was having with my sales team, they told me, hey.
06:32Lead quality is is not optimal. We're having a high level of, uh, unresponsive leads. The show rate is really suffering because of it, but I told them, hey.
06:39If you can turn this around and capitalize on having on having all these all this lead flow and turn it around to, I guess, make the business more profitable in the sense that we can get these leads responsive, we can be more aggressive with the outreach messages, the resources that we're sending them, and capitalize on this all this lead flow Mhmm.
06:57Then it's gonna be a very profitable funnel, and that's what they were starting to do. However, the mistake that we made was we were running a, you know, a VSL call funnel like everybody does.
07:06We had the VSL type form embedded into a calendar, uh, type form embedded on the, you know, landing page, and then it would go to a calendar. Problem was is leads were booking calls just for the sake of booking calls, and the sales team was then having to work extremely hard to get those leads to show up to those calls. It was working out very profitably.
07:21However, my mistake in doing this was let me add a timer to the VSL page to try to increase the intent of the prospect, therefore, improving the quality of the prospect and then sacrificing a little lead volume for sure, but making up for that in the fact that now the sales calendars are gonna be maybe a little less booked out and not not as slammed, but the prospects are gonna have a higher likelihood of showing and a higher likelihood of closing because they're gonna be more willing to consume resources.
07:46They're gonna be more willing to show up to the call, so on and so forth. How'd that play out? That didn't play out as expected.
07:52We took an eight x funnel down to a three x. Main thing is we didn't decrease the lead volume by 10 or 20%. The lead volume decreased by 60%.
08:01Yeah. So lesson learned from coming out of that was anytime I I gambled with the fact that what I should have done looking back in retrospect was just remove the ability for leads to book a call.
08:11Just said, hey. Let's, you know, fire this lead into the Slack or into our CRM, and then let the setters go chase after the leads and then still convert them, keeping the volume the same, and then just allowing and and doing some work with the pixel conditioning. I think that that could have been another level that I lever that I could easily pull.
08:24Your your solution would have been to, while operating in an AX ROAS,
08:29instead of the timer, you would allow the people to still apply Correct. Not allow them to book, which would keep the calendars freed up, and then you'd try to put them through a setter connection process to qualify and vet and push them over to a closing call?
08:44Correct. Yeah. I would have Did you action that?
08:46Yes. But after So the
08:49after the timer Is that what my role has right now? He's only at a four to a five?
08:53So here. I'll I'll I'll, uh, I guess, walk through the entire step. So the the what I would have done in retrospect, and what I did do after we implemented the timer, was implement pixel conditioning so that we routed leads to a DQ page, still letting them fire into the Slack and the CRM, and then letting the setters chase after them.
09:10Then the problem that we had was the setters got really fat and happy. So the setter performance decreased, and the booking rate was the biggest bottleneck. So the lead flow went right back up.
09:20We were starting to get, you know, leads coming through. Nobody was booking calls in the calendar. The setters were dialing leads, but we weren't booking calls at the level because when we were originally running the funnel, the calls were getting booked on the calendar automatically.
09:31And then if the setters and closers because we had low ticket closers and high ticket closers depending on how qualified the leads were, it's almost it pushed and forced the reps to grind because if they didn't automatically cancel that call from an unresponsive lead or chase after those leads, they were not getting a call booked over top.
09:51We weren't doing any double booking. So it forced them to really rise and start working hard. When we remove that and we let leads come into the Slack, come into the CRM, and then force the setters to dial those leads, that's where our problem started with setters getting fat and happy because my setters, looking in retrospect again, were making way too much money in January, February, March.
10:09Can you know, they were you know, the company did did decently well, and the setters were getting paid extremely handsomely for that. They made a lot of money. They did well, and then their ability to grind and work hard fell off a cliff.
10:20So the booking rate dropped tremendously when we fired leads into the Slack and let the setters dial them up. That was the biggest bottleneck. So to solve that, that was you know, that got the funnel back, switching some messaging with the ads, and then, you know, I guess, pushing a lead flow back up, be not allowing them to book.
10:37That got the funnel back up to a, you know, a five to a six or or about a four to a five, I wanna say. And then what we had to do and what we've done, you know, this month or or this previous month was start bringing in a new setting team and setting a new standard with new KPIs, new SOPs, making sure everybody's doing their job properly.
10:54And if they're not, be way more aggressive about removing setters from the team to then increase the booking rate, which that's done exactly exactly that. It's increased the booking rate, and now we're seeing ROAS start to improve and and revenue because of it start to improve, unlocking, again, more scale in that specific funnel.
11:08Amy, what's the ROAS at right now at those most recent changes? Is that where you're sitting at, that four to five ROAS that you have? It's it's probably nearing a six right now.
11:14Understood. So you still haven't touched eight? No.
11:17You haven't still touched We've never we've never hit what we hit in February, which was, uh, which was, like, Why not a buffer back to the original system? We could, absolutely, but when when I turned we ended up getting back so the original system, to be frank, had ads that were a little bait y in the sense that they weren't attracting the highest quality demo.
11:36And we could absolutely revert back to the original system, but my mindset on it was if we can have a higher quality of prospect coming through with still great volume or still decent enough volume, then it makes more sense to have closer and setter time more efficient so we can scale the ads up further rather than having a bottleneck be having the ads be too bait y, attracting a lower quality but a higher amount of volume, pushing the spend up in that scenario, and then having setters dialing leads that aren't the same level of quality.
12:06Even though the ROAS like, the the ROAS is the end all, be all, obviously, but that was my my mindset on it. That that lower quality demographic that you had mentioned that you were pulling through while you were at the 8x ROAS, was there, as an example, something problematic on the back end? Like For sure.
12:21You were getting more refunds, like, chargebacks, like, more issues that you just wanna mitigate, and that's why the lower ROAS now where you're at the six is worth it comparatively? Definitely. The Okay.
12:31The yeah. The the chargeback rate, the refund rate, the level of problems that we dealt with with customers was definitely a big factor in that, but I would say the main thing was, you know, almost just rep efficiency in that in that standpoint. And even though we were at an 8x, they were grinding like they were, you know, like, they were super hungry for it.
12:50And until we get back and I see that that same level of hunger, I don't have the confidence to start pushing the crap out of, you know, funnels that are gonna give them a ton of lee flow but are gonna sacrifice in the quality. Because if their hunger levels aren't there, then, you know, we're gonna be it's like finding the needle in a haystack when you have those those kind of funnels, in my opinion.
13:08Understood. One thing that I'll tell you, just as a great piece of advice just in case this comes up again in the future to consider, is to lie to your salespeople. Very underutilized piece of advice.
13:17So what I mean is, let's use the example that you get back to whatever ROAS you're at. Like, six x is fine as this example. And your salespeople start to do the same thing again, where they start ex explaining to you, hey.
13:30We're seeing a lower quality demographic coming, and you look at the ROAS, and you say, we're at a six x. Like, no. This makes any sense to hear these complaints.
13:37And you see that you're getting a higher quantity of qualified people coming through maybe based on some signal that you track it on. Could be like an application. Could be something, simply put, that just signals quality is technically higher than what it's historically been, but they're still complaining.
13:51Okay? When and if that occurs, when I say be willing to lie to your salespeople, what I mean is is sometimes all a salesperson needs is what's called narrative management.
14:01If I simply tell a salesperson, dude, really appreciate your feedback. Um, we're gonna action it.
14:06And then I follow-up with them later that day, and I say, hey. Based on everything that you guys told us, this is specifically what we're gonna do. Uh, we did this.
14:13We did this. We did this, and all this is intended to improve the overall lead quality. Do me a favor.
14:18In these next two days, just keep your eye out and tell me if you see any differences in the quality of person that shows up. And, dude, no exaggeration. A majority of the time, the salespeople without a single change happening will actively report those following two to three days that lead quality's improved out of nowhere because we make them look for the good, whereas their brain gets hooked on looking for the bad.
14:41When a salesperson falls into a specific narrative that they believe to be true, it's no different than just any human being on earth trying to prove themselves right.
14:51The subconscious's job is to prove ourselves right. When we're sold on something, it seeks data that validates that.
14:58You ever seen a schizophrenic walk around that posts on Instagram? I occasionally get blessed with the opportunity to see this content in my Reels feed, where there's some schizo walking around just actively blabbing about nonsense, where they're like, Oh, you see these guys over here in the corner of the park?
15:15They've been following me around. And this is the fourth time I've caught them, man.
15:20This is the fourth time. And you're like, what the fuck is this person babbling on about?
15:25My point being, . Okay?
15:30What the brain tries to seek, it finds. If I tell that same schizo a completely different narrative that I can get him to believe, even though nothing may have changed in their actual reality, only thing that becomes different in that example is how they're looking at their situation and what they're trying to validate. Right?
15:43So if I can say, hey, Rohan. Really appreciate your feedback, man, with all the salespeople, uh, uh, giving us that data. Do me a favor and go and tell them that we made these changes, but we didn't actually do shit.
15:54Okay? Just tell them that we made these changes, and then tell them to keep their eye out on quality these next few days, and see if you can change their perception.
16:03If you're operating at a six, ten, 8x return, there's obviously a lower desire to change anything in that example because you nuked it to a three x, and then you've had to strategically work your way back up just to get to a six x. And realistically, it sounds like you're still dealing with a lot of the same issues you were technically dealing with prior.
16:21For sure. And at the end of the day, like, your salespeople, are they still saying the same things, or are they technically saying, oh, no. Everything's improved now?
16:29So the salespeople are now saying that everything's improved. Right. So So imagine this.
16:34It's like imagine you stayed at the eight x the entire time, and literally, you just tell them without all the exhaustive effort on the other side of it, just as the initial test, to see if you actually then have to go and make change. Because that's the best part about that strategy of lying to your salespeople, is when you tell them that, you'll notice if you actually need to action it or not.
16:52You'll see on the other side of them either saying, nah, man, we're still getting a lot of turds coming through, and you can officially take it seriously after that. It's almost like the encouraging advice here is to lie to them out of the fact we're attempting to validate whether they actually have that problem or not, or whether we don't have that issue, and therefore we don't need to action everything and exhaust all our effort, but also lower our ROAs in this case just from taking a bunch of random actions.
17:17That makes sense? That contracted you down, it sounds like, about a 100 k in revenue per month so far. More and more and more and the efficiency of every dollar being spent a bit.
17:26Very very uncommon advice, to be clear, of lying to the reps, but unbelievably effective as a test. It's a validation strategy is an important thing to note rather than a psychological manipulation strategy of getting comfortable lying to your reps all the time.
17:40Take them serious, but find a way to validate it. Does that make sense? For sure.
17:43Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
17:44They're very good. Okay. So as you go through this process of looking at your call funnel now and you got it back to a six x, the DM funnel at the same time sits at a four to five.
17:51Yeah. You have the same setter team working in both? No.
17:54There's Seven teams. Specific DM setters, and then Understood. Are you at a ceiling with the DM funnel?
17:58Most people I've noticed reach ceilings at DM Funnel somewhere around a 100 to 300 k a month, and things become excessively challenging to get it above that. Are you running into this? Wouldn't say that we're at a a specific ceiling.
18:09I'd say that the only bottlenecks with that specific funnel is response
18:14response time, so just hiring more reps would would be a a solution for that. And then, I guess, scaling up the specific angles in the marketing that we're applying. So for example, I think different angles in the ads, working on, you know, new creative iterations, trying new, you know, lead magnets or hooks or whatever it may be, you know, straying away from the super standard direct response style stuff, that could also unlock some scale as well.
18:39Because we've historically had a lot of success with applying lead magnets through the DMs aggressively, so offering guides and challenges and live you know, free communities and stuff like that. I think that an an unlock that we need to implement moving forward is changing up the, quote, unquote, free offer that we're pitching in the DMs to then appeal to a new demographic, and then introducing our done for you automated solution, uh, you know, having them come in through a different kind of a different not a not a a different funnel, but for a different lead magnet, if that makes sense.
19:12Has your attention actively been on this? No. The attention's been on the call funnel.
19:16Okay. Makes sense. And is the call funnel truly taking that much time in terms of time and effort per day to detract from putting attention on the DM funnel, or is it more of a lack of somebody just saying, why can't you do both?
19:26It's and and to be to be clear, there's also been a a strong emphasis on the fulfillment side of things as well in terms of coming up with new softwares and, you know, making sure that. So I think that between the call funnel and the fulfillment side of things to make sure the fulfillment's dialed in, to obviously make sure that they're you know, we keep the refund rate as low as possible, the chargeback rate as low as possible, that's been where my focus has been for sure.
19:46But, yeah, between between those, the DMs is definitely an area that needs to be focused on once the well, we've kinda come out of the the thick of it with the the call funnel because of some of the strategic things we've added to the type form. Obviously, facial conditioning, fixing a lot of the the response the responsiveness problems and lead quality problems that we ran into earlier with to new messaging and the ads and whatnot.
20:07But but yeah. So the DM funnel is definitely next on my list for iteration.
20:11Okay. Makes sense. And then when you look at all of this and you break it down for what it is, I imagine having the fulfillment issues that you just spoke about, potentially high refund rates or chargeback rates above the desirable thresholds,
20:23that's limiting you on your desire to spend more on these and scale them up? For sure. The yeah.
20:28The the fulfillment side is there's no problem with actually fulfilling on the product. It's just making sure that customer expectations are in line, because we need to make sure that we're dialing in the actual what's being said on calls to make sure that there's no misaligned expectations between customers and then the product that we're actually delivering.
20:45Because frankly, we have a a resource, which is a highly converting resource, where we're where we're basically on calls or, you know, in pre call content, go through the entire customer list, and they're because we can see all of their accounts, and how much they're making per month, and we'll show off actively. This guy's losing money because he, you know, he didn't wanna follow directions, and this guy's making money, and here's how much he's making, and all this stuff.
21:06And we can show every per every person's, you know, details, how much they're making, how many accounts they've hooked up, and all the good information. It's quite clear to the prospect that they're getting access to something that works. The problem with it is is if the salespeople are being too aggressive on calls and pitching it as some, you know, get rich quick, you can make a 100 k next month, then customers are coming with misaligned expectations from the jump, making making fulfillment nearly impossible no matter what the product is.
21:32So we've had we've had a a some fulfillment bottleneck specifically with closers and reps saying all sorts of outrageous stuff to get deals across the line, and those customers charging back, you know, having issues, going in the community, talking trash. And obviously, that's not good from what we wanna see because that's not how to run a good business.
21:51But now that we've aligned it and says, hey. We're gonna call back your commissions if we go back and look at your call recording, and you're saying outrageous stuff that's not in the S and P. So now that we've kinda outlined a stricter protocol on what to do there, we've seen a lot better clients, uh, a lot just people that aren't
22:08so get rich quick like. Does that, in your mind, conclude that you've solved the issue of what sounds like an expectation problem? And the reason I ask this, once you actually feel like the fulfillment issue's been resolved, whether the fulfillment issue is technically an expectations problem of how people are being closed and the experience they receive on the other side of it, or whether it's an actual fulfillment issue with something that you're failing to do in the actual product delivery to help people get results and outcomes, has that issue been solved in your mind?
22:40In my opinion, yes, it has. So have you started to scale? We have.
22:43We started to scale
22:45of as of coming out the weeds of the call funnel and trying to dial that in, and then the fulfillment things. We started to scale two weeks ago, I wanna say. Okay.
22:53Got it. Yeah. Two weeks ago.
22:54What's what's the current scaling plan? So it sounds like your attention would be on the call funnel then Correct. So the the current scaling plan with the call funnel is to keep increasing the ad spend every single week, making sure that setters and closers are maintaining KPIs.
23:09So what what I've historically done, and what I plan to do is increase ad budgets by 25% per week, maintaining KPIs to make sure that we can increase the volume without, you know, dropping dropping off a cliff when it comes to the booking rate, the show rate, the close rate to make sure the setters can handle it, and then obviously, as it comes with it, scaling the team for sure.
23:31Understood. How much capacity do you have to book into right now? We have a decent amount of capacity, but as we continue to scale, we need to hire a few more reps and hire more setters as well, because the setters the setters are the biggest bottleneck in this funnel by far.
23:47The closers,
23:48they have more calendar availability, but it's the the setter availability that needs to be dialed into a max. So Understood. If there's a if there's a simple way to articulate this to you, it'd be in, like, a a simple bar graph where if this represents the amount of total calls per day I could take, so so calls per day I could book.
24:09Okay? And then this represents the amount of calls that I am actually booking per day. We always wanna have a gap in between these two.
24:16We never actually wanna run into the ceiling in between these. When we run into the ceiling, that's where we end up getting a very aggressive stall in our scale, and we reduce the total amount of times that we can scale year over year.
24:32Let me be very direct on this. If I operate at my actual capacity, okay, where I have this many calls per day I can book, and I book this many calls per day, that means that on average, when I go to hire new setters and new closers, it's gonna take me weeks in almost all instances from what we see.
24:48The average is typically anywhere from the best case scenario, two weeks, worst case scenario, six weeks. Where are you currently averaging to from the very jump of saying, okay.
24:57I need new setters. I need new closers. The recruitment process to them actually being on the calendars, how long does that take on average right now?
25:04Two weeks. Okay. Good.
25:05And is that the same for a setter and a close? Correct. Okay.
25:08So you're currently averaging about two weeks right now. So two weeks. It's about a week I would say a week of recruitment and then a week of training.
25:15To hire setters and closers. Okay. Very good.
25:18So you're on you're on the more above average end of that spectrum. And again, when you look at that actual difference of capacity, how far off are you from your current ceiling, or how close are you to it from your capacity ceiling?
25:3170%. Is that the same for both setters and closers? You just sounded like you might have been able to Yeah.
25:36I think I think setters are
25:38and I need to confirm this with the team for sure to to make sure as we continue to increase the lead flow, which we've done over the past, you know, few weeks. Yeah. But I would say that the closers are probably about 60%, 60 to 70 probably about 60% being realistic, and then the setters, I wanna confirm, but I would say probably roughly about the same, probably about 60 to 70% in terms of capacity wise.
25:58Okay. And I don't wanna the thing is, I don't wanna keep them wanna I make sure there's a balance between making them making them money, and make and keeping them within the OTU range, but also, you know, getting them fat and happy. Because if if I don't bring in more people and keep the operation very competitive, and make them hunt for their commissions, then I'm gonna have the same exact thing that happened months ago that I don't wanna repeat, which is, setters make a lot of money, and then they decide they wanna fuck off and not work.
26:21Exactly. You have to divest against that by having a sense of Exactly. Capacity So I don't wanna wait until we hit capacity to hire.
26:27Yeah, never ever. I wanna continue bringing more people As we start approaching, we scale, bring in more people.
26:33We keep scaling, we're bringing more Let me put it in perspective like this, since you mentioned you're scaling 25% week over week, assuming your KPIs hold. Yeah. If you did that over the course of a year, you have 52 different weeks that you get to scale throughout the year, assuming a few of those are holiday weeks where your KPIs aren't probable to actually hold, assuming a few of those are weeks where, as an example, Q four holiday windows where people just aren't even necessarily probable to buy at the rate they are during normal periods of time, you realistically have somewhere in the forties to be able to total times per year scale.
27:00Okay? What people who hit the capacity ceiling run into is they will only have, especially when when they're at the below average end of how long it takes them to hire people, It could be, as an example, they get to hire every other month.
27:15So just to put that same thing in perspective, if I hit my scaling ceiling, and then it takes me four weeks on average to hire and get somebody placed, I'm gonna hit my ceiling, I'm then gonna reactively go and hire more people. After I go start the process of reactively trying to hire people, it takes me four weeks, four weeks went by before I get the opportunity to scale again, then I start to scale again, then I hit the ceiling again, then it takes me another four weeks to hire people.
27:39I might literally get six to eight times a year in that example of how many times per year I get to scale overall. Yeah.
27:46So you are currently operating where you have a distance of sounds like about 30 to 40% from your actual closure capacity ceiling. It's so important to maintain that as you continue scaling up.
27:59What sounds like a deficiency in what you're currently doing is you don't have an actual scaling plan, so what I mean by this, it's genuinely as simple as going into, as an example, like a Google Sheet or an Excel sheet Yeah. And saying, okay, here's my current daily spend, here's my current KPI of my cost per call that I'm getting onto the calendars, here's how many total closers I have now, and how many of the total calls per day that that total spend times that cost per call produces.
28:23Okay? So I can visualize the ceiling that way, and then if I go to add that 25% spend, I can see how many more calls it produces, I can see my capacity limit in that same model, and I can see how close or over it gets me to my capacity limit, so I can pinpoint the exact weeks that I need to have new closures onto the calendars relative to my scaling plan.
28:44Does that make sense to So when I say that's a deficiency, just simply put, visualize in some form of a sheet or a document when you are getting to different thresholds.
28:54Because right now, your current spend, how much are you putting out per day on the call funnel? Around around like, little over 1,000 a day on the call funnel.
29:01So if you as an example, if you scale 25%, you add $250. The current cost per call is? Right around, I wanna say, 75 to $100 cost per call.
29:10So to be clear, in that example, the next $250 on your thousand dollars that you have now could equate to anywhere, it sounds like, between worst case scenario, two calls. Best case scenario, maybe four to five calls on a good day.
29:21And that cost per call is coming down as I increase the hunger level in the setters, and the show rate and the close rate are also coming up as I make sure that they're generally Generally, in financial modeling, it's good to be conservative with your estimate for what you're going Comparatively, in closer math, when you're doing scaling plans around when you need how many closers, it's actually better to be a little less conservative.
29:42It's actually better to be more optimistic about things like, okay, my cost per call, if you're saying it, is actually getting better as you continue to scale, which surprisingly is common. It's a lot more common than what people perceive, but if you do spend more money, and you reach broader audiences, and you're actively doing more messaging tests, and you have a larger TAM, you can experience lower costs as you scale, believe it or not, contrary to what most people are So saying and again, remember, you wouldn't put a descending cost per call as you're scaling, you might continue to plan around the fact it's about what it is now, or you might assume that it's gonna go down just a little bit, so your math is still impartial to the fact that it might not go down forever, obviously.
30:22Assume that it hits a certain floor and may actually bounce up at a certain point in spend. Does that make sense? Makes sense.
30:26So simply put, visualize the closure math so you can actually see when you need to hire who, because this is gonna end up fucking you if you don't. You understand?
30:33Sure. Yeah. Absolutely.
30:34And it gets a lot bigger, obviously, the more dollars that go out. It can tell you predictively how many closers you actually need to hire.
30:40Are you familiar with your closers stick rate or your setter stick rate? No. Let's use the example.
30:44I hire five closers or five setters in your business right now. Five and five. How many stick?
30:4870%. So as an example, I can add that math to that same exact model I just articulated to you, because, again, let's use the example. I'm at a thousand dollars a day in spend.
30:57I'm gonna scale 25% every week. I get and again, in this hypothetical example, somewhere in the forties Yeah. For how many times per year I can actually scale this thing.
31:04There's 40 different instances where I'm kicking up to spend 25%, assuming my KPIs hold, and I'm only gonna have 70% of the people that I actually hire into my closure team or my setter team stay on the team. That means that, as an example, let's say I'm at five k a day, and I scale 25%.
31:20That's gonna reveal to me for that 25% jump that I might need five closers instead of the two that I may have otherwise thought I needed, because out of the five that I hire, I'm only gonna get three to four of them that actually stick, and I get to see how many I actually need at different levels of those 25% jumps factoring in my stick rate too.
31:38Do you understand? Yeah. So when I when I talk about scaling at the at the speed in which you can grow this thing, I consider it to be more like a bicycle, where it's a like, the speed in which I get to pedal from one to the other is the speed in which I get to solve problems on one side or the other.
31:52So as an example, it's fill the closers' calendars, hire more closers to expand the capacity, fill the closers' calendars, hire more closers to fill the capacity, and then I just switch back and forth between these two different functions, and what most people will end up dealing with as they go, one or the other ends up fucking them.
32:09Either the ability to fill the calendars fucks them, and then they have to do things like fix my call funnel, or fix my DM campaign, or get organic to work better, and they can stay stuck there for a while. Or the opposite, which is I can fill closer calendars without issues, but I'm having issues with just recruiting my closer systems in general, my setter systems in general, um, to be able to switch it back to the other.
32:30Remember, the speed in which you move between those two different systems is the speed in which you get that 550 k to go up into the right faster. Does that make sense?
32:38Absolutely. Okay. You can anticipate a lot of the problems you're otherwise gonna deal with.
32:41Yeah. So in your current model, only putting attention on the paid call funnel right now makes sense, because you needed to recover it.
32:48Now you have to detach away from that because it's technically recovered, and it's back at a six x with some improvements that can likely get it up a little higher, but some attention deserves to go back onto the DM funnel in order to continue that switch from organic being the majority to organic being the minority instead.
33:05Does that make sense to you? Correct. Okay.
33:06Very good. What else do you wanna highlight about this model that you've got running right now? Is there anything particular that stands out about it that's currently fucking you?
33:13I think the
33:15the only thing that I can kinda mention that is standing out that's really standing in the way of unlocking a lot of scale is, honestly, beside like, the the the main pivotal points that were really hurting us was the booking rate because the setters got lazy.
33:31That was killing us for a long time until I revamped the team, made everything a lot more competitive. And then beyond that, it was the, uh, just the overall lead flow, the intent, the quality, and all that, which we've now been able to recover a lot due to proper messaging in the ads, a more desirable way to pitch the actual offer, and then, you know, I guess, just a better a better overall SOP and system around the resources, ensuring the show rate is high, and ensuring that we actually get, uh, you know, get people to show and close off of the calendar.
34:02What's show rate right now on paid call funnel? Do know? Yeah.
34:04I have I have all the stats right here. So call funnel right now goes from,
34:08to be clear, an ad. They go over to a page, is there an opt in on the page? No.
34:12Okay. Got it. VSL One straight to a VSL call funnel.
34:15On average, the the paid call funnel is at a 63% show rate.
34:21And it's a one call close or a two call close? Depends. I'd say it's I'd say I'd say majority is one call, though.
34:27Okay. Got it. So go show rate, close rate, and then stat wise, you said that you're at around a 60% show rate.
34:35Got it. That's not bad. I mean, to be fair, it can go higher, for sure.
34:38I mean, usually, like, 70 to 80 the upper end of the spectrum nowadays. Six I'd say, like, 50 to 60, surprisingly, is about the average, so that's not terrible. What's the close rate at?
34:47Close rate is right around 60% as well. And that's on people that show up to the calls, I assume.
34:54So that's that's really good. I mean, that's above average for sure. For sure.
34:57And then to be clear, do you have the application to scheduler ratio off the top of your head? I don't. Okay.
35:03And then you mentioned your cost per call your cost per call currently sits at about 75?
35:07Yeah. And, yeah, that's correct.
35:10What other stats do you have? I have the
35:13yeah, those are those are the main stats that I have highlighted here. We see a significant like, is way closer to 80% on the show side.
35:22Obviously, that's gonna be reflective of the consumption of the prospect. Now, when you say your attention actively goes towards trying to get people to show up, are you are you saying you're trying to get them show I mean, your stats here indicate that people are coming through exceptionally well framed. So the my mindset my mindset was trying to get people to show up, but more importantly, to make sure the framing was correct, so that so that when they showed up, they had enough information with our pre call process and the way that we presented resources to actually close.
35:50And based on our stats, they have all the information. Closing is 60% of the time. So so based on those
35:56I think data's an outdated issue for you, and I think that your brain may be hyper focused on it, but I don't think it's an actual problem for you if these stats are accurately reflected. Yeah. Yeah.
36:06I think that you're trying to avoid something else and keep your attention here for some reason. Are you doing that consciously or unconsciously?
36:12Probably unconsciously.
36:14Because I because I might yeah. If maybe I'm trying to over optimize the show rate and get the show rate to be higher, but for what? Because the ROAS is the Well, I mean, let me let me just put it in perspective like this.
36:23Okay? If the ROAS in this current funnel remains at, like, a five to a six x and continues fluxing right around there Yeah. Sure.
36:30If we financially modeled out a 10% lift in your show rate, don't get me wrong. It's gonna improve the ROAS further, and it's gonna get more dollars out the other side, but the question becomes, is that where because you have a finite amount of attention that you can put towards anything in a day, and it sounds like you're being pulled all over the place.
36:47Yeah. This has also been an area that's been problematic for you historically,
36:51that right now Yeah. It sounds like you've recovered from. Yeah.
36:54I think the main lever that I need to do is just push the scale up, push the spend up tremendously, and then hire the right team and the right infrastructure,
37:01and make sure that the team remains hungry and we have the right the right scaling system in place. I think that's the better way to frame this, if you wanted to keep your attention on it, is exactly that. Like, I'm gonna take 25% more spend week over week, and I'm just gonna take some time and attention and make sure that my KPIs hold it.
37:17Because if I can get 5 k a day off instead of a thousand dollars a day Yeah. And I can maintain this type of KPI, you know, I'm in a phenomenal position for my cash on cash return with that.
37:28In the short term, I mean, keep in mind, like, putting 25% additional spend per week, that's not gonna cause a lot of reactivity or negative bullwhip on your attention that you're gonna be reactively putting into different places.
37:40If anything, that's honestly a pretty casual scale plan that I'd question why you couldn't go faster on and just increase the amount of 25% jumps The that you're gonna short term focal point clearly needs to be the DM funnel and or another funnel that you put Typically, in place of organic only businesses, they deal with leads that show up so exceptionally well framed that they'll actually struggle with the types of funnels that you're now running.
38:08Yeah. Like a call funnel. You are crushing it with a call funnel.
38:12Is this the same team that's working on the organic? Correct. So you have a team that is actively getting a four to all the way up to a six x return on a funnel that most organic only businesses would struggle with.
38:25That's a phenomenal signal to me. I I can't stress enough. There's really two things that I'd encourage here.
38:31Number one, put more attention on the DM funnel and try to push it up higher, which may be uncomfortable for you for some reason. That's why I say, do you think you're putting this extra attention on the call funnel for some reason? I'm I'm putting I'm putting it on because I've I'm
38:44putting the extra attention on it because I've been fixated on it for two months, because I I'm I've tried to fix it from where from And you did. Like, it's been the it's been the only focus for the past two months because it was going so well, and then it flipped and went so drastically wrong. So now that I've recovered it and Does it just feel scary?
38:59Like, it may not hold the performance? Like I don't think it Let me put it in simpler words. Do you think that keeping your attention on it is what's, like, the glue in a sense, keeping it at the row as it's at?
39:09Are you afraid to take your attention off of it because the row has may collapse if you do? I think that right now, finally, I can take my attention off of it. But, like, if you asked me that same question two two weeks ago, I'd have said no.
39:19I would have said no because the center team wasn't where where it is. Like, we had to bring new setters, hungrier people, and then that solved that was the bulk of the problem, and as I've kind of told you, it's like that was the that was the main bond, like, holding us back. So that now that we've implemented the new team, everybody's hungry, we're continuing to bring on more setters, we're ramping way harder, and I'm gonna push the budgets up a lot more.
39:37Now I have the confidence to say, okay. Let me take a step back, focus on DMs, recraft angles, messaging, create new ads, focus on, you know, creating amazing lead magnets so that we can scale that a lot a lot higher too. And then, frankly, for the call funnel as well, as we continue to scale it up, we're also working on, you know, some ad stuff for that.
39:53But, again, that might that might go back to the concept that you get. It kinda reiterated to me. It's like, again, why are you hyper fixating on it?
39:58It's fine. You don't need to launch 50 new ads when you're doubling the budget, you know, when you're spending going going from a thousand, 2,000 a day. Like, that's not It's gonna it's gonna be, you know, way down the line that you're gonna need to Yeah.
40:08It's a very passive amount of attention at this point that it realistically When
40:11you're in fix it mode, it requires a lot of attention, but when you're in maintenance mode, which is essentially scale mode, it doesn't really require that much. I mean, obviously, keep your eye on it, but Yeah. You know, I get comfortable with that.
40:21So from a DM funnel perspective,
40:23I got a question, again, why you just aren't putting more priority attention on it now. Sounds like you've answered that. Do you intend on going back and and putting more attention it as it's The DM funnel absolutely ripped for us.
40:34Yeah. For the whole course the course era, and then in the beginning of the software days. The DM funnel has historically been a great performer for us, and now that we've fixed the call funnel, the DM funnels because the DM funnel in a high skepticism industry really works, and I remember watching one of your inner circle group calls about businesses that are doing great organically.
40:50What are the easiest funnels to jump into is webinars, DMs? Yeah. Right?
40:54Because you can serve people with really pinpointed resources, uh, you know, great content that really talks to their pain, and then provides a solution, and it's a a pretty easy sell once you've got somebody in the DMs, e even if they're in a high skepticism niche like like trading, for example.
41:09So I have a lot of I have a lot of conviction in the DM funnel, and now that we and I wanna hammer that too. Absolutely. The the the only thing that we tried to optimize the DM funnel, and this is this is a good, uh, good talking point as well.
41:20We tried to apply the the comment strategy, where the you have a a leads a leads campaign with the landing page inside the actual campaign, but the CTA in the video is comment the word x, and I'll send you whatever lead magnet they have. We tried that, and then sending that link later on for the pixel conditioning, but the performance was really poor compared to, like, a normal engagement campaign.
41:41Yeah. So we turned that off, switched that back to a normal engagement campaign, and then, um, you know, I've been ripping that with no problems.
41:47But I'm just I I definitely wanna, you know, increase my level of attention on specifically how we can implement some more aggressive pixel conditioning strategies or what you know, whether it's through conversions API or Take that account. There is a a setting that you can actually use now that enables you to signal back to the platform
42:04when somebody who comes through a DM ad is qualified or unqualified. You're not at a high level of spend going out on the account, so you may not have been prioritized for this. But if you've historically been running DM ads out of the account, like, literally optimized for message based objectives, I saw this in a handful of Inner Circle member accounts recently and even a few client accounts.
42:23There's a function on the ad set level where they show you the opportunity to change,
42:30uh, what you're optimizing around based on what you signal in the DMs is a qualified conversation, and then that's what delayed gets sent back to the results call. Have you seen that in the ad account, have you looked? I haven't I haven't looked in in too much depth, but but I have reach out if you don't see it too to their support and see if you can request it as an alpha feature.
42:47Yeah. Yeah. And I'm I'm working with my tech team as well inside ManyChat, so that when a specific tag is added, that's that fires back to the specific DM pixel that we have set up.
42:55So I just wanna make sure all of that's working properly. But that was the main that was another leverage point that I outlined with the DMs of something that can definitely be improved is just the pixel conditioning overall. So we're not just optimizing it as, like, engagement campaign where we have some sort of pixel conditioning in there.
43:09But I think that that's along with kinda revitalizing the DM campaign, there there's a lot of a lot of levers to pull to increase the revenue coming out of there specifically.
43:19And why no webinar? That's a great question, and I absolutely wanna rip rip a webinar. We've just been so hyper focused on the call funnel specifically that I haven't had my attention on that.
43:29But now that we're coming out of that and it's more in maintenance mode, especially with the DM funnel, we'll get that back to where it needs to be. A webinar, especially to our organic audience, would destroy.
43:38So I think that's another easy lever to to pull to generate a lot of revenue. Yeah. I'd I'd love to see more of something that looks like this over the course of of a week.
43:48Okay? So one two three four five six.
43:53So if we look at this Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Ideally, you can get to the point where you do two webinars a week.
44:02Okay? Now for a regular person demographic, are you selling to the general public to be If you're selling to the general public, sometime around 03:30 to sometimes about 04:30PM EST is a great time on Sundays for a webinar.
44:18And then in addition to that, Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday, preferably a Wednesday or a Thursday, if you choose to do a cadence with one on a Sunday. And ideally, this would be closer to, like, a 7PM EST start time on either one of these two days.
44:33Take your pick for which one you're actually gonna choose to do. And what you'd ideally have occur here is every day, no matter what, you have the call funnel that's actively running and booking up calendar space.
44:47Okay? And then in addition to that, you start to scale up the DM campaign.
44:53So there's DM activity that happens every day because as articulated earlier on that some people may have not caught, you currently have a delayed timeframe of when somebody originates in the DMs versus when their responses kick up and when they're probable to actually start to get on calls Yeah.
45:10And activate themselves in the sales process. Here's the good news. With call funnels, do you know your average sales cycle currently from a lead origination to the time they close on average?
45:19Probably about a week. So call funnel is your front end cash flow. Let's call it seven to ten days realistically.
45:23With
45:24a DM funnel, do you have any idea how long you're front end cash for before it returns? I'd say it takes two to three days inside the conversation to book, and then the the closing the sales cycle on the book to close is quicker on the DMs, because there's more trust that's built in the DMs, because I have my DMs that are really prioritizing resources.
45:41So realistically, it can be faster than the call funnel, because Correct. When Yeah. I will
45:45all all things considered, it's probably about the same from DM to close, but the actual when they get booked on a call to actual close is usually, like, on the same on the same day or on the same on the call they close, unless there's a logistics objection or they a financial where they need to, you know, get some money for it.
46:01Yeah. And so realistically,
46:03like, let me just put it in perspective for how this can look because this this is a pretty sick model if you actually get this set up is you have Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday here on this graph, and then here, we have call volume would be an ideal indication of this.
46:20In an ideal scenario, we have a slightly lower call volume that happens on Sundays. We wanna see a slightly higher call volume on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and then usually, again, a slightly lower call volume going into Saturdays.
46:35Okay? If the DM funnel's right there pretty much doing the same thing, same logic, ideally, I can get my DM funnel to consistently perform high on the weekdays and lower on the weekends.
46:47Weekends with regular people, they typically just take off. They don't show up to calls nearly as often. If you exported all of your data for showed calls, you'd likely see that same pattern, but make sure you actually look at the data to determine that that's actually the case for you.
46:59And then typically with webinars, what webinars do as an example, if I end up having a lot of webinars throughout the week, ideally a Sunday and a Wednesday, I end up getting to two webinars a week, I will see some calls come in on that day, to be clear, if I have my closure capacity opened up on Sundays, and I'll see a heightened quantity of calls on Monday, a lower quantity of calls on Tuesday.
47:21I get my total call volume back up again on Wednesday, a slightly lower volume on Friday, a slightly lower volume on Saturday, and then I see pretty much nothing from there.
47:31So webinars are a little more choppy with how they look. They aren't as smooth. Okay?
47:37Whereas a DM funnel and a call funnel, these are what we call daily lead flow. Okay? Daily lead flow is great.
47:44Daily lead flow provides our closers daily opportunities to continue to get deals. Same thing with the call funnel. So DMs and calls are daily consistency.
47:53Webinars, on the other hand, are inconsistent by direct comparison. We can increase the consistency of them by doing them more than once a week, or sometimes nowadays, getting away with a just in time webinar and scheduling it to run on a daily basis without us having to be there and do it.
48:08The combination that you're running right now is is daily lead flow. You have two different daily lead flow funnels. You have DM ads, and then you have call funnel ads.
48:16There's two different types of funnels at this point that you could actively work in that would make a lot of sense as a diversification strategy that would strengthen your ability to achieve a higher amount of revenue with a little more, I would say, stability than what you otherwise may have.
48:28As an example, when you got nuked on your paid ads funnel and you have excuse me, your paid call funnel, and you attention have going on your DM funnel, all you really see is just a reduction in total revenue and a reduction in total calls because all your call volume's originating from one source that you're putting your attention on.
48:44What you can do is is get your call funnel just like the position it's in now, into a place where it's in maintenance mode and scale mode, which isn't going to require a lot of your time and attention going to the actual funnel and ads itself, it's just maintenance mode. The DM funnel is going to require what it sounds like, a good amount of time and attention for a short period of time.
49:03It's gonna stabilize, it's gonna turn into a maintenance mode funnel, it's gonna turn into something that's much more passive in its attention that it requires, and then it frees up your time and attention to figure out the next funnel that you can then add to the overall mix, and have the opportunity to scale. The The next most obvious funnel for me after you fix the DM funnel would be a webinar strategy.
49:20For sure. The webinar strategy would start off with a once a week strategy realistically, unless you wanted to increase it twice a week right away.
49:26You need to learn how to take these extra dollars that come in profit from the call funnel and from DM ads, siphon off a little bit of that towards a new bet on another funnel type that you can work into the mix. Because what you're doing here, whether you realize it or not, for your larger revenue goals to be accomplished, you're gonna get there through what's called the chunk method.
49:46Okay? is where a few different key revenue sources make up the overall revenue of the business. You have 65% of it currently coming from organic, specifically from YouTube.
49:56Have You the other 35%, 10% coming from DM ads, 25% coming from paid call funnels. That right there literally is your mix of your current chunk that have made you the five fifty that you're averaging now on a month in and month out basis.
50:08Now realistically, yes, you can scale those up, and those chunks can become larger, increasing the overall pie and differentiating the share of each one of those chunks of revenue, but it's very unrealistic that, as an example, you're gonna shrink organic down to sub 5% and have something else take up 95% of your total revenue origination source.
50:27Does that make sense to you? So from that perspective, just knowing that, I'd bring that to conscious awareness, and I would attempt to have more funnels rather than less solely for the benefit of achieving more revenue just based on how your current behavior pattern is. Does that make sense to you?
50:41Completely. I believe also just based on how you are that you can handle that, I don't think it's that much. I don't think it's that exhausting.
50:47I think it's actually gonna be a great diversification strategy considering that you went from an eight x to a three x. Based on that liability of the fact that you had that big of a swing, having more than one funnel type, specifically, ideally, like three Yeah. Would put you into a position where you have less overall exposure to the downsides of one specific traffic source and or funnel type that all of a sudden contracts doesn't fuck you as hard.
51:10Does that make sense? Completely. Okay.
51:12This might sound to you, to be fair, to how you actually are in your day to day, as just another thing that you have to actually put time and attention into, and therefore, can reactively consume you and cause you to potentially decrease your quality of life due to the amount of things you're overall gonna commit to, but what I think it's actually gonna do, I think it's going make you far more efficient than you are right now at all of the things that you're currently committed to.
51:32I'm also going to point blank tell you, I think at this point you need to delegate to what's called a marketing helper, and try to offload some of these key things that you've put your time and attention into to fix into somebody else to keep their fixated attention on it, you need a funnel owner. Okay?
51:46So let me be clear on what I mean by this. If you have a marketing helper per funnel that keeps their fixated time and attention on it, you become more efficient, you get the opportunity to focus at a higher level on more impactful actions, while the people that you hire to be the funnel owner are specifically gonna keep their attention on all the trench level details that you and I both know obviously make a difference to the performance of those funnels, that at this point are actually below your current dollar value per hour for what you should otherwise be paying attention to.
52:18As an example, I just wanted you to, in a very conservative way, tell me how much additional revenue running a webinar once a month towards the organic audience would generate. At least a quarter mil.
52:27So you could add 250 k in the month Yeah. To your overall top line revenue from just one additional thing that I just wanna be clear.
52:36Right? And I don't wanna lead you to water here to get you to say this is the answer. Tell me if it's a different answer genuinely if you view it differently.
52:42Your time's too consumed in these other things, that's why you haven't done an extremely obvious $250,000 actual Correct. And I think that the fact that you're consumed in these other things, technically, yeah, they've recovered you, and they've made you the additional revenue, but how much additional revenue did you recover from putting all that time and attention into the call funnel?
53:00Less than I mean I mean, about, like, roughly taking it taking it from a a, like, a three, which was
53:07where it was at at the kinda bottom, back up to a a five to a six. Recovered
53:12significant revenue, but I don't think it would be comparable to his revenue that we're percent of your overall revenue. So you were at if you were at, you know, 550 k like you are right now Yeah.
53:21You know, 25% of that That's less than, like, 250 that just took one webinar. And I just want you to ask yourself from an effort perspective, recovering the call funnel the way that you did in comparison to just the time and effort it would take to do one simple action on the webinar side of things per month.
53:37How much time and effort's gonna go towards one or the other? Yeah.
53:41Webinar follows a much higher leverage activity from a revenue standpoint than that, and if it's and if you can, you know, focus on cranking it up with paid, and diversifying,
53:51because the organic audience is ripe and ready. Which you should. Mean, obviously, you're gonna want to at all costs, but even
53:57on an organic level, it's obviously an extremely high leverage activity. But as we as we can build it up into a, you know, something that continues to drive, you know, drive opt ins and sign ups every single week in, week out, it's it's gonna add a lot to the business overall, Similar to, you know, how revitalizing the DM funnel is gonna be, the webinar funnel, you know, introducing other funnels.
54:15I I I completely understand. No. I just wanna ask you a simple question just to test your thinking.
54:20Okay? The DM funnel currently makes up 10% of your revenue. That's about $55,000
54:25a month. Yeah. Out of the two, which should you put attention on?
54:29The webinar.
54:30Okay. 100%. Are you gonna do that?
54:32That's that's that's gotta be that's gotta be the focus. If that's not the focus, then, I mean, I'm I'm not the not the smartest or not the sharpest tool in the shed, you know? Yeah.
54:39But so remember, like, what you what you have Yeah. Is both extremely valuable as a characteristic of having a really high desire
54:47to get in the trenches and in the weeds and fix all these problems and, recover the revenue, as you say. But it's also essentially one of your greatest weaknesses when you don't have the self awareness in real time to say, Should I allow that part of my personality to shine right now, or should I kinda redirect it elsewhere Yeah.
55:08Towards something that could generate me more dollars per hour by direct comparison? And it's obvious to me that incorporating a webinar into this current mix would be way more effective just on a once a month basis at first if you wanted to simplify it down to just that. I deeply, deeply believe that inside of your niche especially, uh, with what you do and the personality that backs it, you having a webinar at least once a week, if not twice a week, would realistically dwarf the revenue of all of your efforts right now and take, believe it or not, a lot less time and effort comparatively to some of these other funnels that you're putting time and attention to comparably.
55:48So I would maintain the call funnel, I would also maintain the DM funnel, and I would bring forth a webinar funnel into this.
55:57I would start it in the simplest way possible, just do an organic one and just demonstrate to yourself how much money it makes. Done. And then as soon as you see that, as soon as you get comfortable with the presentation and the funnel, try to commit to doing it on a weekly basis to cold audiences specifically, and optimize around that.
56:14When you do show up to your warm audience once a month organic webinar, it's gonna be like playing a game on extreme difficulty and dialing it down to easy mode. You're gonna crush it, and you're gonna laugh at how easy it is.
56:26Cold paid audiences, specifically like broad, that's where the real money is in the webinar strategy.
56:33Yep. Um, and that's where you have a lot more consistency in the revenue that comes from it as well. And out of the two different funnel types, I think it's far more probable, comparatively to the DM funnel, to put time and attention into.
56:44Now, I just wanna ask you one simple thing. I think you may know this, and I think that could also be the cause for why you're not prioritizing attention on the DM funnel.
56:51You wanna ask me the question is, why am I not prioritizing? It's more of a statement, if anything. I think that you right now are not prioritizing attention on the DM funnel, not just because of the hyper fixation on the call funnel.
57:03I think you know that the DM funnel is an inferior funnel type comparatively to something like Absolutely.
57:10And yeah. Yeah. I'm not I'm not focused on it because I I love the because the focus has been on the call funnel at such an extreme level because I'm I love the I I recognize and completely agree with the fact that the DMs have done extremely well for us, but there's inherent limitations in the amount that you could push them to.
57:25Oh, but hear me out. The webinar is new.
57:27I haven't done the webinar yet. Okay? You know the call funnel.
57:31You realistically, as you talk highly of the DM funnel, know the DM funnel too. But hear me out.
57:37Smart people, one of the issues is when we move so fast, and we also have so much that we're actively paying attention to Yeah.
57:46It doesn't negate the fact that we know what is better to do. Okay? I believe that you know the webinar is the better move here, and I believe that you may not be putting the necessary time and attention into the DM funnel because you know the webinar is the smarter thing to do.
58:04And I don't know what you're waiting for, I don't know if it's maybe a conversation like this or something that reactively takes you there in your decision making, but say, I gotta do this webinar funnel finally. I don't know what you're waiting on as a trigger, and this is another issue, most people just don't have a defined trigger of when they choose to do what.
58:21They leave it to their imagination to come up with when they're gonna do what, which usually means they never end up doing anything because they don't define when they do what. I can't stress enough that if you took some time and just slowed it down a little bit, not a lot, but a little bit, by freeing up your time and attention as the operator here through delegating to funnel owners, I think you can make all these work at scale at this same exact time.
58:47For sure. And I think you need direct reports who own these specific funnels that you deeply trust are sitting there just executing all the things that you direct them on doing, but you don't need to be the one sitting there doing all that shit yourself.
58:59You need to determine across the board what the highest revenue driven thing is you could do, And I deeply believe you know it because you're smart, but you're not doing it because you have all these trench level distractions that are actually pulling you down to a lower amount of revenue overall as a result of this trench level set of distractions you've got in front of you.
59:16Does that make sense? Completely. Completely.
59:18I can't I personally am shocked to sit here and listen to you tell me today that you know there's two fifty k a month just laying there on the table for you, and I bet you're being conservative based on what I know about your math and how you've predicted things in your past for yourself. I can't see anything different than the fact that you're just willfully being distracted with something that you likely potentially feel the need to control, you know?
59:41I think you need to relinquish that control and hand it over to somebody that you feel truly competent in. And you know this to be true.
59:48Back in the day, before you were rich, you were competent, and somebody gave you that trust. They handed off key responsibilities in their business to you, and you stepped up and you showed up, and you managed to take over more than just one thing at a time.
1:00:02But really, listen to what I'm about to say, okay? And this is not to be derogatory towards you. I want to be clear, though.
1:00:08You are technically best when you're paying attention to one thing at once at the level you're currently paying attention to it. You right now have recovered a call funnel really quickly back up to a higher level of ROAS in return because that's who you are.
1:00:22You can't do all three of these things at once, otherwise you'd be doing them right now. If you challenged yourself and you really wanted to try it, you may be able to make it work, where you can put attention on a webinar, a call funnel, in a DM, but if one of those things breaks, this exact same type of behavior is probable to take over again, where you're just gonna get reconsumed in something, and then the other things may start to die as a result from neglect.
1:00:44That's why I'm telling you, I think that you need to find people that were just like you when you were a little more entry level compared to where you're sitting in front of me of here talking to me as today. I think you need to find somebody who's like an entry level Rahan, and that you can be like, you're gonna be my call funnel guy, you're gonna be my DM guy, and you're gonna be my fucking webinar guy, and when I need to, I'm gonna freely move between these three things for whack a mole, what requires my attention randomly, and I'm gonna allow these people to own these things so I can take my time and attention and put it on higher level things.
1:01:15And I think that then, in that type of setup, you'll be able to actually handle all these things at once, and really look at it for what it is.
1:01:25It's a limitation of you and your capacity to prioritize attention on all three of these things at once level they need to be at to actually contribute a serious amount of revenue.
1:01:37Otherwise, what do they do? You know? Like, what do you even fucking spend 55 k a month on gross?
1:01:43You know? A little bit of payroll? It's like, that DM funnel, how much could that DM funnel be making if it had a priority amount of attention?
1:01:49I mean, could be making a lot more, but I I don't think it would make more in the webinar funnel. But, again, hear hear me out. Yeah.
1:01:54It's like, how much could you push the DM? Yeah. I could push the DM funnel a lot a lot harder, for sure.
1:01:58You could put I could push any of the funnels a lot harder to in all in all in in all honesty, I think that and what's crazy is that that you say that, but I think it was the q three mastermind. One of the things I wrote down on my notepad as you were presenting the scale of un uncertainty, which was a great talk, was the highest one of the highest leverage things I can do is take an aggressive amount of risk on introducing new funnels, understanding that they might not work out the first time around, the second time around, month one, month two.
1:02:23But that is something that nobody else in the business or any of the businesses that I own, that's something that nobody else will do besides me, which is take the aggressive amount of risk, fire up these new funnels, see how they do. And that was the original reason why I started the VSL call funnel because I actually had a predetermined belief around the trading industry that VSL call funnels would not work, and they and they didn't work when we had a course business.
1:02:43When we transitioned to a software business, they started working, they worked tremendously. But the only reason why I was able to even launch that VSL call funnel in the first place was because I went back after that talk, went back to my my condo and launched that funnel.
1:02:56And I I told my entire team, I said, we're gonna launch a VSL call funnel because I wanted to test it. And, like, that decision has obviously done and and and allowed us to, you know, do a considerable considerable amount of revenue through that funnel, but it's the same concept here. It's the same concept of I'm I'm avoiding building up the webinar, making sure it's perfect, and and dialing it in, well as allocating the heads of these kind of different funnel departments to make sure that the stats stay in line, the KPIs stay in line, because I'm in the weeds so much on a day to day managing the operation.
1:03:23And if I want to truly push this business upwards, it's not gonna be from being in the weeds at the level that I am, it's gonna be from introducing new phones and taking an aggressive amount of risk around things with a high level of uncertainty, to then take action around me improving the show rate from 60% to 70% is not gonna double this business.
1:03:42But me implementing a webinar funnel that loses me money on month one, but triples my money on month month three is. Yeah. And keep in mind, like, you're gonna get free house money anyway from running the webinar one time organically Yeah.
1:03:53Yeah. That then pays for all those, you know, perceived potential losses from trying to open it up on paid. Yeah.
1:03:59Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:04:00It's just might be right. It's just gonna be about taking taking an aggressive amount of action around things that I don't have the level of certainty on, because we haven't run a webinar funnel for this for this specific algorithm offer yet. We ran it for the course offer, and that performed amazingly.
1:04:12That was actually, uh, been and now it's funny saying this, you know, considering that I haven't acted on it in months, but that was one of our one of a great revenue generating strategy that was able to tack on, you know, at least 30% of our monthly revenue,
1:04:24thanks to a completely organic webinar, and then we we ran it with paid as well, and, uh, it did well. But I Like, I wanna sit here, and I wanna talk to you about, like, low ticket to high ticket For sure. And how great that would likely be, because that's the thing.
1:04:35Like, when you have these shorter sales cycles that are, like, seven to ten days, and you're only fronting cash within a very short duration of time, and recouping it back at four to five x profitability, you can afford to front cash on a longer sales cycle that's gonna be way more profitable and endure it.
1:04:53But I can't even talk to you about that right now because you haven't mastered the ability to essentially hand yourself off in a fractionalized version of you to somebody else you trust to own these different offers, Yep. Take yourself out of the trenches.
1:05:07You gotta let the weeds grow. You know? It's a way to stay in the weeds Yeah.
1:05:10But you gotta get to the higher level of the weeds now with how you're operating in the business. That makes sense? Absolutely.
1:05:15Absolutely. I think there's a lot of there's a lot of key leverage points to pull for sure that I think we've we've cleared up today, which is fantastic.
1:05:24Very good. I got the the the wheels are turning now. So I got nothing else for you.
1:05:28I wanna let you go and see you can get I know exactly how you are. You can go back to that condo you talked about and take a fuckload of action. So you wanna close it out for the people?
1:05:35You got anything? Awesome. Well, I appreciate every single one of you guys watching.
1:05:38Um, awesome to sit here with Jeremy, as always. Been part of this inner circle for for a long time now, and, uh, a lot of the lessons that I've learned about business, but more importantly, about how to take an aggressive amount of action, and non super business related stuff, but more the mindset of a business owner and how we need to act on a daily basis.
1:05:53I've learned from from this guy. I think that those are probably the biggest takeaways that I've, uh, that I've taken away from the inner circle is Jeremy here has completely reframed my mindset on what it takes to be a high level operator and owner, and then, you know, that's applicable to all my operations that I run
1:06:09with this trading business, and then all the other businesses as well. So that's something I I thank you for, and something that has been awesome for me to learn from. Excited to see how much more money you make, man.
1:06:18We'll we'll look forward to it now. Coming from The trophies for this for this business for sure. Yeah.
1:06:21You're long overdue. I long overdue. I'm overdue at this point.
1:06:24But, no, it's this this webinar is gonna get us there, so we'll we'll we'll down then. Should.
1:06:29It it'll it'll be down then. Thank you, John. Alright.
1:06:30Well, thank you guys very much for watching. Make sure you go check out the other videos on the channel. We got a few like this.
1:06:34I've got a whole bunch of talking head videos going through million dollar a month lessons and what it takes to accomplish it and, you know, the lessons from people that have been there and done that. Again, no earnings claims in all this, just simply lessons that we're handing down to y'all. So go out there and get rich or talk soon.
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