The argument in one line.
The content machine behind a $100M personal brand is not built on creative brilliance -- it is built on operational systems, and the person who holds it together is a head of content, not a creative director.
Read if. Skip if.
READ IF YOU ARE…
- You already have a small content team but feel like you are still connecting every dot yourself.
- You want to understand the real difference between a head of content and a creative director before making a hire.
- You are an editor or creative who wants to know what separates a B-player from an A-player inside a high-output content organization.
- You want to see how a content team scales from two people to 50+ without losing quality or team cohesion.
SKIP IF…
- You are pre-team and solo -- this is a scaling conversation, not a getting-started one.
- You want tactical YouTube SEO, thumbnail formulas, or short-form growth hacks.
The full version, fast.
The content machine behind one of YouTube's biggest personal brands ran on operational clarity, not creative genius alone. The guest built that machine for five years -- two people to 50+ -- and the through-line was: hire for aptitude and attitude over pedigree, retain through culture and growth ceilings, and build a management layer that lets the head of content step out of the weeds. The podcast covers the full arc from origin story through the head-of-content vs creative-director distinction, events production, and the data-backed argument that YouTube is a legacy asset while short form is a dopamine machine.
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Create a free account →Who's talking.
00:52hostYousef Lashuell
00:52guestTristan Kermode
Where the time goes.
00:00 – 00:52
01 · Trailer
Spliced best clips set up the invisible-genius premise.
00:52 – 02:53
02 · Introduction: The Man Behind Iman's Empire
Host frames the guest as the person behind billions of views nobody knows. Guest reflects on never thinking about impact while doing the work.
02:53 – 10:05
03 · From Bermuda to Iman's DMs
Origin story: product design degree dropped for travel content creation, pandemic kills the gig, DM'd Iman in 2017 and was rejected, applied again in 2020 and landed the job due to London proximity.
10:05 – 17:50
04 · The Least ROI Positive Team Member
Early days at sub-150k subscribers, rinse-and-repeat strategy, pivot to lifestyle vlogging, and the organic emergence of monk mode content.
17:50 – 30:00
05 · The Outsource Everything Trap
How the creator-to-head-of-content relationship evolved; the mistake of expecting one hire to fix everything without staying tapped in.
30:00 – 37:28
06 · Why You Cannot Lead Creatives With Fear
Retention philosophy: full-time over freelance, 18-month lifecycle, public acknowledgment, and why fear kills creative output.
37:28 – 49:36
07 · Aptitude vs Attitude
B-player vs A-player framework. How one editor was discovered inside the short-form team with a single internal challenge rather than an external hire round.
49:36 – 1:00:58
08 · Head of Content vs Creative Director
Creative directors are hyper-fixated on creative; heads of content split time 50/50 between creative and operational systems. Three-level team model: C-suite / managers / makers.
1:00:58 – 1:15:35
09 · Behind Iman's Events
How major prerecorded events were produced: CMO scripted narrative, head of content and creative director curated visuals, editors built the cinematic world.
1:15:35 – 1:23:59
10 · YouTube Is Legacy, Short Form Is Dopamine
50 percent of highest-converting offers have YouTube as primary audience source. 480 short-form reels equal the trust-building time of one YouTube video.
1:23:59 – 1:30:01
11 · You Do Not Find a Head of Content, You Build One
Treat content as a game of trying things rather than calculating outcomes. Identify the person already on your team with aptitude and build a roadmap to develop them.
Lines worth screenshotting.
- The head of content behind a billion-view machine was the least ROI-positive team member in year one -- then content became the most important thing in the business.
- Hiring the best-portfolio editor often creates more problems than it solves because the expectation of one person fixing everything is baked in from day one.
- Every new hire joined at B-player level regardless of portfolio -- the distinction between B and A is attitude, not aptitude.
- You cannot lead creatives with fear -- acknowledgment and room to grow are the actual retention levers.
- 480 short-form reels are required to match the trust-building time of a single 15-minute YouTube video.
- 50 percent of the highest-converting offers tracked had YouTube as the primary audience source -- not Instagram or TikTok.
- A creative director is hyper-fixated on what to make; a head of content splits time roughly 50/50 between creative and operational systems.
- The 18-month employee lifecycle is predictable once you accept that editors absorbing entrepreneurial content all day will eventually want to try it themselves.
- When the head of content went on a four-day trip and received zero messages, that silence was the signal it was time to leave -- the machine no longer needed him.
- You do not find your next head of content -- you identify someone already on your team with aptitude and build a roadmap to develop them into the role.
- Full-time over freelance is not a preference -- it is a dependency-management decision, because freelancers are hot commodities that can be poached at any moment.
- The best next hire is often already inside the organization: promoting a short-form editor to long-form after one internal challenge beats opening an external hire round.
- Content teams that are humanized -- given creative sessions, public acknowledgment, and room to suggest improvements -- produce better output than those treated as order-takers.
- YouTube is a legacy asset; short form is a platform where you are relevant today and forgotten next week.
How the content machine behind a nine-figure brand actually ran.
WHAT TO LEARN
The invisible operator behind one of the most-watched channels on YouTube ran a content machine built entirely on systems and people development -- not creative spark.
03From Bermuda to Iman's DMs
- Proximity matters in early hiring decisions -- the guest got the job largely because he was based in London, not because he was the most skilled candidate.
04The Least ROI Positive Team Member
- A rinse-and-repeat content strategy has a ceiling; pivoting to documenting the person's life rather than teaching the subject opened a much larger audience.
- The content that defines a channel often emerges from documentation rather than deliberate strategy -- monk mode was found, not planned.
05The Outsource Everything Trap
- Staying tapped into content as a creator, even after hiring a head of content, is what lets the relationship work -- abdicating completely creates misalignment.
- Executing a brief and managing an entire content operation are two completely different jobs that diverge further as the team scales.
06Why You Cannot Lead Creatives With Fear
- A predictable 18-month lifecycle for editors absorbing entrepreneurial content all day is not a failure -- it is a planning input for the manager.
- Public acknowledgment within the team, not just one-on-one feedback, is what makes creative contributors feel valued enough to stay.
07Aptitude vs Attitude
- Aptitude is the floor for hiring; attitude -- proactivity, problem-solving, pushing the work without being asked -- separates B from A.
- The best next hire is often already inside the organization, discoverable with a single internal challenge rather than an external search.
08Head of Content vs Creative Director
- A creative director improves quality faster but cannot build the operational systems needed to scale; a head of content builds slower but creates a machine that outlasts any individual.
- Once managers know who to contact for every type of problem, the head of content only needs to intervene when their proximity to decision-makers can unblock something.
09Behind Iman's Events
- Major prerecorded launch events require separating the narrative function from the visual function -- conflating these roles slows both sides down.
10YouTube Is Legacy, Short Form Is Dopamine
- 50 percent of the highest-converting offers tracked had YouTube as the primary audience source -- the platform where audiences form the deepest trust.
- Short form drives recognition and top-of-funnel volume; YouTube drives conversion. The correct strategy combines both.
11You Do Not Find a Head of Content, You Build One
- Treating content like a calculation -- chasing the next viral video -- makes the work unsustainable; treating it as ongoing experimentation keeps it generative.
- The person who will run your content operation long-term is likely already on your team -- identify them, map a roadmap, and develop them into the role.
Terms worth knowing.
- Head of Content
- The operational and creative lead of a content team -- splits time roughly 50/50 between creative direction and systems-building, unlike a creative director who is almost entirely focused on the creative side.
- Creative Director
- A role hyper-fixated on creative output and cultural awareness -- excellent at identifying viral formats and elevating quality, but typically not focused on team operations or scalability.
- B-player vs A-player
- A B-player has the aptitude to do the job at high quality. An A-player adds attitude -- proactively solving problems, identifying inefficiencies, and pushing the work forward without being asked.
- C-suite / Managers / Makers
- A three-tier content org structure where C-suite sets direction, managers connect dots between departments, and makers (editors, thumbnail designers, short-form editors) execute.
- Employee ceiling
- The compensation and responsibility level a given role can reach before further increases no longer make business sense -- used to plan realistic retention timelines before team members self-select out.
- Monk mode
- A self-discipline lifestyle protocol -- no alcohol, strict sleep and meditation habits -- that emerged organically from documenting daily routines rather than being planned as a deliberate content strategy.
- Agency Navigator
- A social media marketing agency training course. The guest enrolled in it before being hired and was required to pay out of pocket to demonstrate skin in the game during his first year.
Things they pointed at.
Lines you could clip.
01:26
“I was not found. I was developed. I was put into a position where I could grow into that role and become that person.”
41:29
“Iman famously said that I was the least ROI positive team member of the company. Then it became the most important thing for all business.”
38:15
“A B-player has the aptitude to do the thing. Becoming an A-player is about your attitude.”
1:21:15
“480 short-form reels to match the trust built by one YouTube video.”
1:26:36
“You are not finding your next head of content. You are creating him inside your business.”
Where the conversation goes.
00:52 – 10:05steadyOrigin story and how the guest got the job
10:05 – 17:50denseEarly content strategy and pivot to lifestyle vlogging
17:50 – 30:00denseCreator-to-operator relationship structure over time
30:00 – 37:28denseRetention, culture, and creative team management
37:28 – 49:36denseB-player vs A-player hiring and the internal promotion story
49:36 – 1:00:58denseHead of Content vs Creative Director role distinction
1:00:58 – 1:15:35steadyEvents production pipeline
1:15:35 – 1:23:59denseYouTube vs short form data and legacy argument
1:23:59 – 1:30:01steadyDeparture and closing advice
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00:00I was not found. I was developed. I was put into a position where I could grow into that role and become that person.
00:06Tristan, you ran the content behind one of the biggest personal brands in the whole space itself. You know, I think business owners nowadays want to outsource everything and just want to hire somebody that's gonna fix all their problems and not have to talk to them about it. Back then, Iman stayed very tapped into content.
00:21Iman famously said that I was the least ROI positive team member of the company. I think he said one, he saw it as, like, the least important thing, and then it became the most important thing for all business. Yeah.
00:29What makes someone a really good head of content? There is such a problem in this space right now of, like, business owners looking for head of contents. Right?
00:36A head of content should have a balance between a creative mindset and an operational mindset. The people that make the most amount of money is from YouTube. Instagram and TikTok can feel like quick dopamine hits Yeah.
00:47But the real audiences
00:49still buy from YouTube. Somewhere out there, someone has watched every single piece of content Iman posted. Every short, every webinar, probably also every single YouTube video.
01:01But they don't know that you were actually behind it. And today, we're fixing that. Tristan, you ran the content behind one of the biggest personal brands in the whole space itself, But still no one knows that it's actually you.
01:13Now, my first question to you is, how does it feel to have generated billions of views, impacted so many people?
01:21You guys actually changed so many lives, but I guess no one ever knew that you were the person behind it. I guess, I've just never thought about it that way.
01:29Okay. I think
01:31I looking back at it now, it's pretty impressive. But during, I just didn't really care.
01:39Like, I saw myself as a cog in a wheel with multiple other wheels.
01:45And so, like, yeah, it's cool to look back at it now, but I never thought at any time, like, how how the videos were impacting anybody or, like, how this was changing lives.
01:58I was literally just so ingrained with, like, the doing Okay.
02:03And the running of the content system that that never really, like, clicked until I left. Yeah. And so it's, like, it's fun to look back at it now, but Yeah.
02:12During,
02:13like, I wasn't even paying attention. Funny you say that because, like, for me, that's how I found out about the online money space.
02:19Person behind the camera is how you found out about the online space. Pretty much everyone that I know.
02:24Yeah. And for you, it's like I mean, it's probably because you were working so hard at it that you never even had time to actually think about it that way. But I think it's gonna be interesting.
02:32I don't think he gave himself enough credit. We had a lot of conversations. Yeah.
02:35I think today we're gonna really get in the weeds of it all. For sure.
02:39And I think people are gonna really get to understand that you actually know a lot more than even, you know, you gave yourself credit for. But where I wanna start is where everything kinda started, you know?
02:50Bermuda. Right? I I did some of the research.
02:53I saw some of the very old pictures, know, where Yep. There you even have a quote in a really old magazine where you say, like, that Instagram is like the future and it's allowed you to like grow your photography business. Yeah.
03:06Yeah. Yeah. And so like, I guess bring us back to like day zero.
03:10Know, who was Tristan before all this? Wow.
03:14I mean, that's a great question. I think looking back at it, like, I was in university studying a product design degree Okay.
03:22Doing all of the normal things. I think, you know, for me at least, what my parents wanted me to do is, like, go get further education, go get a university degree, get a job, stable income, all that Yeah.
03:33Bullshit. And, like, during that time, it was sort of as Instagram, like Yeah.
03:42Instagram had come out at that point, but it was sort of like the golden era of, like, content creation. People going out and becoming travel content creators. I was like, fuck.
03:49Yeah. This is what I wanna do. And from, like, with my mother's background in, like, insurance
03:55Mhmm.
03:56Has Her son going from, like, two years in a into a university degree, you know, money put into it. Like, I'm almost there. Yeah.
04:05And I was like, I think I wanna do this. Yeah. She was like, oh god.
04:09No. Like, that was sort of the first challenge was sort of explaining to her what this was, what this opportunity was.
04:16And I think she says it now, like, credit to myself, that I was able to kind of, like, pull it through, but it's had so many different evolutions Yeah.
04:24Of a career. You know, back in, what was it, sort of 2017,
04:292018, 2019 Mhmm. I was travel content creator. Okay.
04:33Yeah. I saw that Iceland Iceland clips and everything. Yeah.
04:36So I would I heard that miss you all. Yeah. Come back.
04:38Love Iceland. Yeah.
04:41I saw all of it. Yeah. I'm getting used to sort of the cringe of, like, going back and looking at all that old stuff.
04:46But, you know, working for tourism boards, working for brands, agencies Mhmm. And just going on and, like, doing shoots, creative shoots for those people just to create, like, Instagram content before, like, it was really the thing that it is now.
05:01Yeah. The understanding of how, like, brands can utilize it. Mhmm.
05:04So I think I was, like, I was ahead of it, but I wasn't, like, making the most of that opportunity, if that makes sense. It's like luck, but not luck. Yeah.
05:11Because I remember, like, you said you had your friend write an article about you, like the journalist with all the pictures he used to take, like, in Bermuda under the water and, like, everything. Yeah.
05:20But I like I said, there's a part where you basically say, like, oh, Instagram is, like, the new way for people to get, like, to get business or to get recognized or, you know, I get people, clients through Instagram. Yeah. And so it's like, some people will be like, oh yeah, well, you work with them on.
05:34But it's like, you kind of were also really ahead of the curve. Like you saw a bit of this trend and the way that I see is, like, because of that, you know, the rest happened.
05:43So it's like Yeah. I guess going from that, how did the transition even happen?
05:49Like, guess first things first, like, did you even meet Aman?
05:51Yeah. So, like, to your point of, like, kinda being ahead of it, I think I was so engrossed with, like, being a creative because I have like, I was in a product design degree. Yeah.
06:00Like, I would consider myself, like, quite creatively minded. Yeah. And so I was always looking at it from that lens.
06:07And I think the transition happened where I was like, okay. Now I need to turn this into a business. Mhmm.
06:13What can I do? What sort of process can I take, program by, whatever, to kind of give me that level up?
06:21Mhmm. End of twenty nineteen, I had sort of finished my last contract with this this travel agency. I was like, okay.
06:27Like, can try and figure it out the business side of things whilst also looking for a job. Mhmm. And this was January, February, March 2020.
06:35Mhmm. And I think we all know what happened in March 2020. Yeah.
06:38And so found myself at home isolated, shaved my head, scrubbing banana bread.
06:44Okay. Yeah. Because I used to have, like, long hair.
06:46Yeah. All that sort of lore during that time that time period. Monk mode, essentially.
06:50Yeah. Monk mode. Yeah.
06:51Also ahead of my time there. Yeah. But, you know, I saw this guy, Iman Gazzi Mhmm.
06:56And I had the connection I had with him was three years prior, I DM'd him.
07:02And I was like, hey. Look. I can do your content for you.
07:06I can help you shoot. He was living in London at the time Constant agency before he was doing that thing up. But, like, not even that sense.
07:12I wasn't even pitching it like that. It was like yeah. I knew he was running the operation by himself Okay.
07:17Yeah. Just from watching his content. And I was like, there's a 17 year old kid who's done really well in business.
07:22It was at the time where he just bought it, like, You he's rented know that apartment where it's like that whole downstairs area with the outside area? He's got his desk against the wall.
07:30Like, it's a very iconic apartment for him. Met him there just from the DM, and we kind of just struck the agreement that it wasn't really the right timing Mhmm.
07:41Because he was the question was, like, what can you do that I can't can't already do myself? Okay. Yeah.
07:46Alright. And when you are what was he? Yeah.
07:50So 2017, I was, fuck, like, 21 at that time.
07:54Yeah. Oh, no. '23.
07:57Yes. I did. Yeah.
07:58Something like that. And I was like, fair enough.
08:01Holy shit. It's been it's been, like, nine years. Yeah.
08:03Yeah. That's yeah. Yeah.
08:05Coming up on 10 next year since I've met him. Yeah. And then, you know, obviously, nothing happened from that.
08:10And then you kinda fast forward three years later, his brand just kind of continued to grow and continued to blow up. Mhmm.
08:16And that's why I said in my application application when when he he put put it it out out on on a a story story in 2020 Mhmm. When he's looking for a video editor. Was like, hey.
08:22Look. We've met before. I'm still I'm now more unemployed than I was before, and you've just kind of blown up.
08:31Your business is going crazy. Like, I think I can really help you now. Mhmm.
08:35And it came down to it. I genuinely believe the reason I got that job was because I was based in London.
08:41Yeah. The proximity to him being able to film with him. And so during that time as well, the other thing to mention was, like, March 2020.
08:50Between March and June when I got the job, I had enrolled in, I think it was agency navigator. Okay.
08:56And I was doing the course. Yeah. And I paid him a thousand bucks.
09:00Okay. And so for the entire first year that I worked for him, he was like, you have to have some skin in the game. And then after the year of working with him, he then refunded me the money for Agency Navigator.
09:10But, like, I was totally dedicated to trying to start a social media marketing agency. Okay.
09:16Yeah. And then I was like, fuck it. Like, I could start my own agency or I can learn from the guy for a year and then go start something else.
09:23Yeah. Which look how that is. Yeah.
09:25That never happened. Right? So it's funny to look back at it, but it's kinda like those stages of where, you know, timing around what I was thinking of doing with myself and the business Mhmm.
09:35But then also, like, timing around, you know, things that happened in my life where, you know, obviously, the thing in 2020 happened, and then I was kind of like The thing? Yeah.
09:44That's like Let's just say travel content creator Yeah. In 2020, there was not a lot of games flying around. So Not a lot of traveling.
09:50Yeah. So I was like, I need to scramble and find something, and this just came about Right. Quite naturally.
09:56And so it was it was literally just kind of like luck and timing for it to And then, yeah, it obviously turned into what it did. So it's fun to look back at it, for sure.
10:05Okay. That's that's very interesting. So in terms of, like,
10:09when you guys started, it's so different to how it looks today. Yeah.
10:12So I guess let's go back to, like, when you first joined, like, what did that look like at the start? And then like, I I'm curious on what it looked like at the start, and then when did you feel like it started shifting?
10:24Yeah. Something more serious. So that I mean,
10:27June 2020, I started working with Iman, and, you know, I think it was a bit of a mix. Like, I would be spending half of my time with him filming in person, filming vlogs at his house, or, like, fucking helping him build his office setups.
10:41Like, I was quite like, I love an IKEA set. So I was like, he saw that, and he was like, perfect. Tristan, you're gonna design my offices.
10:48Right? You're gonna build all the desks. You're gonna put in all the lighting and do all the the framing for the shots.
10:54And then the other side of it was obviously the editing. And back then, like, our content strategy was what video did we post last time this year like, last year, this time of year?
11:05Mhmm. Okay. Let's do that.
11:06Or how to do Facebook ads 2019. Or let's run how to do Facebook ads 2020.
11:12And that was our content strategy. And it was working? Define working.
11:17I mean, it was yeah. We were I joined sort of sub I think it was sub a 150 k sub subscribers. Mhmm.
11:24And in a year, we grew 19,000 subscribers, which by Okay. So the first year was like okay. It was yeah.
11:29It wasn't like I came in and changed everything, and then it was like we all all of a sudden had this meteoric rise by no means. So what changed in the first year, do you think? Did did it get, like, easier to be consistent?
11:38Was it I think we we just kind of learned the formats of videos that we needed to lean in on. Like, we sat down and we said, okay, this strategy of just basically rinsing or repeat videos from the last year isn't working. Mhmm.
11:50Let's go. Iman wanted to go a bit broader and kind of do the vlogs to show a little bit more about his lifestyle. Mhmm.
11:56And I think from those, we were able to kind of, like, decipher what elements people were really interested in, like monk mode. Mhmm. Came out of that just by us vlogging Iman's day to day routine
12:07and then, like, his millionaire habits. Is because, like, the agency stuff kinda capped? Like, you guys kind of really like, you kinda took over that space, and it was, like, onto the next.
12:17Right? Yes
12:18and no. Okay. Like, I can't say anything to, like, the sort of the timing if it was exact like, the two It just felt right for him.
12:26It just felt like right for him. Yeah. It was just we need to do something a bit different that is not YouTube video sit down about talking about SMMA.
12:34Yeah. Like, we can document Iman's life of him running the SMMA, but also running the the program in the community.
12:42Which no one had really done before. No. And for him, he was a young guy doing it.
12:46So I think everybody, like, that kind of tapped into human psychology. People are always like, fuck. Like, I just kinda wanna see what it looks like to be in, like, the inner workings of it.
12:54And so everything was just, like, snowballing quite nicely where we were introducing these newer formats whilst also kind of, like, doubling down on ones that we knew were, you know, historic performers. Mhmm.
13:05And we changed the perspective where we were always just trying to make sure that somebody was getting something out of the video. You know, they it wasn't just a video for bit like, value's sake.
13:16It was like there was a transformation or there's a problem to be fixed or there is some, like, insight to be had in terms of, like, Iman's life. I think up until that point, he'd gone from, like, vlogging his life as a, you know, personal trainer Mhmm.
13:31Then into his SMMA journey. And then we really went hard on, like, the sort of value side videos where he's talking about how to start an SMMA. So we like, he became a figure in the space.
13:41He had that cult like following, and that cult like following wanted to know more about him as personality. Mhmm. And I think when we did that, like I said, we would find things in Iman's lifestyle that people were, like, tapped into.
13:54And, you know, if we're trying to create content where there's sort of, like, a tangible outcome, what was best for, you know, aspiring entrepreneurs to follow this young guy who's made a lot of money? Yeah.
14:03He said, if you lock in for six months, you don't take drugs, you don't smoke weed, you don't, you know, drink alcohol, you meditate, You get, you know, a 90 sleep score in your aura. And Yeah.
14:14Like, all these guys go, holy shit. Like, that's Yeah. Yeah.
14:17Yeah. That's gonna help me break through. And, ultimately, like, it distills good habits, but it doesn't make you a millionaire.
14:21Right? Yeah. So I think all of those things were, like, all, like, happened quite naturally in terms of timing.
14:28Mhmm. But, like, the strategy in that first year was literally just rinse and repeat. And then into that second year was where we really were, like,
14:35doubling down on formats. That second year is, like, what year? 2021.
14:40Okay. So 2021. Like half of 2020, and then in 2021 was where we
14:44like, Iman said to me, look. We're we need to build this out. Like, we wanna scale this.
14:48So once you, like, guys started taking it seriously, like, 2021 everything Mhmm. I'm sure at that point, you had, like, a routine. Like, what was it what was your day to day like?
14:58What was your week to week like, like, working? I
15:02think it's it was a lot simpler back then to what it was just before Yeah. I left, obviously, like, as the the mechanism or the Machine grew.
15:12The machine grew, like, the systems needed to make sure it ran properly was was changed a lot. Mhmm. At the beginning, like, when I first joined, I was it was like a team of seven, and the content calls were me and Iman.
15:24Okay. Yeah. That was it.
15:26And it was like Yeah. Have you edited the video? Yeah.
15:29Yeah. Yeah. Have you seen it?
15:30Yeah. Yeah. It looks good.
15:31What are we gonna do thumbnail? And we'd sit on the call, we'd make the thumbnail live. Yeah.
15:35That that looks good. Thank god we we introduced, like, a rehashing strategy Mhmm. So that we got rid of all the thumbnails that I made because they were just fucking dog shit.
15:44Yeah. But I was editing a lot, and, you know, we had a lot of outputs. Like, for me, it was I think, we had one main channel upload a week and then, like, a student interview on the second channel as well as, like, another value based video on the second channel.
16:00So was, like, three, sometimes four Mhmm. Edits per week. Okay.
16:04And at that time, with it being such a small team, it would just be me and Iman catching up for an hour a day. And An hour a day?
16:13An hour a day. Every day? Yeah.
16:15Like, the whole company is built around touchpoints.
16:18Okay. Like,
16:19the like, for us or as department heads, you'd have to have at least one touchpoint with each of your departments a day, one hour call. And then there'd be a wider content call where it's, the whole department then syncs together.
16:33And yeah. So people only meet with their content team, like, twice twice a week. Yeah.
16:36Exactly. And so, like And that was how you guys met, like, four years ago, like, five years ago. So I can't even imagine how today it is.
16:42Today, it's it's it's similar,
16:45it's just it's just kind of, like, scaled. Yeah. And then the teams have grown, so then the calls become less like, they have to become more efficient.
16:54Right? At the beginning, Iman and I could talk about content for, like, twenty minutes, get everything done, and then just kind of, like, shoot the shit for forty minutes. Right?
17:00Just chat about nothing. Whereas now, it was a lot it's, you know, we'll obviously, we'll get into it, but, like, now it's just a well oiled machine where in a one hour call, can get you like, you can only just get through, like, the key things.
17:17There are still things that need to be discussed after the fact. Okay. So so let's say, like, back then when you guys had your, like, 2021,
17:242022. Mhmm. So as like, what did that because what what I'm trying to understand, I think one I wanna get through today is, like, what does the actual relationship look like between, like, a creator, a personal brand owner, and then his head of content?
17:39So what did, like, what did you guys' relationship look like? Who was it, like, you know, he would have a direction he wants to go down, then you find how to execute it? I think that's why people are really interested to know how did that flow between both of you guys.
17:51Yeah. And then how did that grow and, like, change over time? What I will say, and I think it's probably like, there are some people that talk or talk about, like, the opposite to this and say that this is the wrong way of doing it, then there are other people that say, no.
18:03That's the right way of doing it. Yeah. You know, I think business owners nowadays
18:07want to outsource everything and just want to hire somebody that's gonna fix all their problems and not have to talk to them about it. Mhmm. I think back then, Iman and and to this day, Iman stayed very tapped into content.
18:18Mhmm. Like, he comes from a content background. The guy was posting for years on YouTube Yeah.
18:23By himself. And so, like, he understood the fundamentals.
18:28And I me coming in from, like, a travel content creator background, I didn't understand the fundamentals. Yeah. So very early on, it was it was very much Iman had the vision Mhmm.
18:38And it was up to me to make sure that I could execute on that. What is okay. So what does executing mean?
18:43That's like the real question. Because someone sees it, right? We used to watch the videos.
18:47There's a thumbnail here, a YouTube video here, a student video here, then there's a vlog being posted at the same time, there's like a webinar coming up. So like like Well, that's that's you looking at it now. Right?
18:57Like, back then, executing would just be, we need to film this video. What time do you can you come to my house? Okay.
19:03Film the video, take the footage back, edit it up, produce the a cut, you know, make the changes that he wants to change, and then make the thumbnail. Yeah. That was as much that's as far as, you know Yeah.
19:13You know, executing goes. And I think there are lot of business owners that are in that stage today Mhmm. Where it's just it's very much that back and forth.
19:20Okay. Like, jump ahead to what we were doing when I left was, you know, we would have inputs from what we needed to do for the YouTube channel.
19:30Like, what exactly do we have coming up? What do we need to post on the YouTube channel? We would have videos that we would need to post on the business channel.
19:38We'd have videos that we would need to post on, you know, the the unscripted channel, the vlog channel. And then there's all the other, like, miscellaneous videos that go into launches, you know, welcome videos, upsell videos, thank you page videos, ads, all that stuff would come across my table, and it'd be like, okay.
19:55How can we one, how can we prioritize everything? Two, who needs to do these because who's best suited to work on what kind of project?
20:03And it would just be my job would just basically be managing expectations of when things can be delivered. Okay. So this is interesting because it means you weren't just, on the YouTube side or Instagram side.
20:13It was, like, any content. Because we talk about VSL, thank you pages, all these different video. That's, like, that's not just the personal brand side.
20:20It's like the business itself. And so you were just, like, heading all of that. Yeah.
20:23So essentially, it's like, we have to get these things done, figure it out.
20:27Essentially. Yeah. Yeah.
20:28And I think depending on what was the content type Mhmm.
20:32There'd be a lot of people that I would need to be tapped into or speak to about what exactly was, like, their vision. Because the marketing team would have a different vision for the ads.
20:42Right? They know exactly they want this kind of visual hook. They want it in this kind of setting or this kind of environment.
20:48And so, generally speaking, when we're doing kind of like ads before an event, we're like like, most of the time, we'd be traveling somewhere. Mhmm. And it'd be to me and Alex to be like, okay, we need to film this ad.
20:59We need to get these scripts. It's like Mhmm. You just know like, it got to a point in the company where everybody knew who was responsible for what.
21:06Mhmm. And so I would be able to go, you go get the scripts from, you know, the head of marketing. I'll get the cameras set up.
21:14We'll get them, you know, put in front of Iman, and we'll get these all filmed and delivered and make sure that we get them to the editing team. And, like, it's simple Mhmm.
21:24When you think about it. It's just, you know, there is a task that needs to be done. The task gets done, and then you notify the next person.
21:30It wasn't like I was taking the videos. I was then uploading them. I was then Mhmm.
21:34You know, overseeing the editors. It got to a point where everything was so streamlined that Okay. When footage was dropped off to editors for YouTube videos, Thank You page videos Mhmm.
21:44If they didn't know what to do, they'd know who to talk to. So they weren't coming back to me and be like, oh, what does it need to be edited? It was like everything was everything synced really, really well.
21:52Okay. And so it meant that, you know, within the team, everybody was like a problem solver. It wasn't just you send them something and then, you know, they were like, oh, I don't know what to do.
22:01Like, they would go out and figure it out. You know what I'm really curious about? You went from, like
22:07like, photography Yeah. Like, underwater photography of someone swimming Yeah.
22:12Talking about, like, all these systems and operations. So my question is, like, like, how did you manage learning all that?
22:19Like, what what was the learning curve for you? Because I'm sure, like, a lot of people watch right now and it's like Yeah. Damn, that sounds like a really complex system to put together.
22:26But you worked on it for years and years and, like, how did you manage your growth? Because I'm sure you might have probably, like, pretty high expectations of, like, just figure shit out. Yeah.
22:33How did you manage, like, your growth yourself, like, growing your skill set?
22:37I mean, you you like, you know, you pretty much, like, ran all the operations, and you built everything you're talking about right now. Yeah. So how did that look like for you growth wise?
22:45Like, did you have any other people that mentored you? Is it just figuring it out by yourself? Is it you and them on together?
22:49What is that like? I was talking to somebody about this the other day. It was like they asked me, like, what was the biggest challenges you faced when you were, like, changing operationally within a within the company?
22:58And I don't think, like, looking back at it, you can kinda, like, pinpoint moments which you change. But, like Mhmm. The rate in which we were doing things, it didn't feel like a massive challenge.
23:09Mhmm. It just felt like it was, like, the next step to get to the desired outcome. It was like, okay.
23:15We've got a team now. Like, we need to grow the editing team because, you know, our scope or the amount of videos that we wanna create would do this, and our amount of team was sort of flatlining.
23:24Mhmm. We'd always have to hire more to to reach the or be able to handle the amount of work that we were doing.
23:30And so I think when we hired our first editor, Alex Mhmm. Back in 2021, that was, like, the first sort of relief for me Yeah. To not have to edit three to four videos per week.
23:41And, like, obviously, my edit skills were nothing Not as same. That we have now, like, miles, miles better than me or better than I ever was.
23:51And so when we brought Alex in, it was, you know, the first kind of, like, taste of what it's like to manage somebody and make sure that they're staying on task. And, you know, it was still very friendly, and I think Alex and I, like, our friendship reflects that. But then as soon as it was like, okay.
24:06We need to introduce another one, and then another one, and then another one, It was like, how do you go from managing one person where it's quite friendly, it's quite casual, to then a team of people who, at the end of the day, are better than you at what you were doing Yeah.
24:22But they need to respect you so that you they get the work done for you. And I think I would always say that I kind of towed the line of a little bit more not a harsh critic.
24:33I would always sort of give criticism, but then also try to motivate. Mhmm. And I think that was, like, a key moment or where things changed for me.
24:41It was, like, going from one person where it was just super casual Mhmm. To then going to, like, a bigger team. I had to make sure that everything that I was doing, I was doing it from the mindset of, like, you can be better at this.
24:52It's not like this was shit. Do better. That works in some departments.
24:56But for the creative space, I think it's always this wasn't your best. How can we get to a better outcome Okay.
25:04And do it together? Yeah. And so I'm kind of, like, sidetracking here.
25:08Yeah. No. It's good.
25:09I think for me, like, when we were building the teams out Mhmm. Like, I've quickly learned that, like, operational operations for me was kind of, like, where I found my stride.
25:19Interesting. Because it like, I think content or head of contents these days Yeah.
25:24Need to be creative. Yes. But they need to have an operational mindset because you can have somebody who is steering the ship who's creative, but if the objective is to grow and scale and you don't have the systems, you don't have the operations for it, like, it's just you're just gonna end up with fucking chaos.
25:41It's it's
25:42kind of like a I I think, like, I I name it, like, one person, like, a operational creative person Yeah. And the other other person like a psycho creative. Mhmm.
25:50Right? So it's like I would say like Alex, I don't know how operationally like he is but he He wouldn't mind me saying that he's not. Yeah.
25:57Exactly. So he's like, I would say he's more of like a psycho creative which is like hyper creativity. Like their mind is just in this other world and they just see things all the time that like A 100%.
26:06At the end the day, like, can't see. Yeah. You know, they'll see angles that you just don't see.
26:10But then you have the other person who's creative enough to understand where you're going. And I'm sure that that's I think where the balance that you had was perfect. Yeah.
26:17Because you were creative enough to understand Aman, but at the same time, operationally good enough people to manage that whole system. Yeah. Exactly.
26:24And I'll I'll say that, like, learning those things was very much like Iman, to his credit, wouldn't micromanage.
26:32He would sort of be like, okay. You've got three editors now. Like, you're gonna have to manage this.
26:36You're gonna have to lead to content goals. I'm not gonna be able to be on every single one. Like, you're gonna need to kind of distill what I have done with you to these people.
26:45Mhmm. And he would it was a very hands off approach, and I think that was probably, like, trial by fire looking back at it.
26:53Yeah. And I'm sure there are things that I did that he wouldn't have done. Yeah.
26:57But that's just like leadership styles are different Yeah. In departments. And I think that by him doing that and stepping away, it, like, made me learn so much faster Yeah.
27:09And fail so much faster. Yeah. Like, fail in terms of how to manage team, how to talk to them, how to motivate them, like all the interpersonal things that you don't really think about.
27:21It was just, you know, you kind of learn those things along the way, and then you you can kind of sit back after a year and have a team of sort of four or five editors and go Yeah. Okay, I had to do this, I had to do this, I had to do this. But was when you're doing it, you're not aware of those changes.
27:34Okay. Interesting. It's funny there's a there's like a theme that went around of, you know, you guys don't you only hire people who are gonna work a 100% with you guys and Yeah.
27:43You know, can't have their own thing. Yeah. Like, why I'm obviously, it's it might be obvious to some people, but, like, why, like, was that?
27:50That you guys have just said, okay, if you're gonna work with us, you're a 100% with us. It was just it was always the
27:56directive from Iman. Like, whenever I joined, it was like, are you working with anybody? Are you freelancing right now?
28:02I was like, no. Like, he's like, you need to understand that this is a full time role. I think in a in an organization when you have the vision that you know it's going somewhere, I think you should always be looking at hiring team with the perspective that eventually you would wanna bring them on full time.
28:16Yeah. Because you don't wanna become dependent on somebody who quite easily could get snapped up by an opportunity that they actually enjoy more.
28:26I agree. It's shit. Right?
28:27Like No one working for me is And it's worse now than it was five years ago. Yeah. Because, like, it's like, if we're talking, like, the creative space, like, editing, designers, thumbnail designers, like, copywriters, all those people are, like, fucking hot commodities now.
28:43Yeah. Like, business owners need them. The cost now is so different.
28:47Yeah. The cost now is so different. I mean, it's obviously why I built, like, Trikeo around it, but it's, like, dude, a YouTube strategist used to cost nothing.
28:54And now that I heard from a friend of mine, there's a YouTube strategist in this big company getting paid half $1,000,000 a year. It's crazy. More than an engineer, right?
29:01Yeah. It's like thumbnails were used to be way cheaper. Now to get a good video edited is like 2 to $500.
29:07Sometimes it's like $800 for a good video. So it's like everything's changed so much.
29:11And honestly what I'm curious about is we've spoken a lot about like content teams and everything.
29:17Yeah. How do you do you retain people? How did you manage to retain people?
29:21Obviously, they were working with them on, so it's like cool. Yeah. But you guys paid decent, but it's not like you guys went out of your way to pay them like crazy.
29:30Like from from my understanding, what I understand is like you paid them what they were worth it to you and it's not like you overpaid. And so how did you like, how do you get people to stay on your team? How do you get them to not just leave and fluke and just work with you for three months and say, oh, yeah.
29:44Work with them on. I'm gone now. You know?
29:45So, like Yeah. How did you manage that? So I think we all we had something that was always
29:51it was just like our kind of, like, hidden secret or, like, when we would approach interviews, we didn't have to pitch Yeah.
29:59Very hard. Like, the editors or the creatives wanted to work with us because it was like, I've like, there's there's so many people who have gone off and said I was among Etsy's We all see those DMed deals. Yeah.
30:09And, like, credit to them. Like, if they were in the organization and they did work on the the videos, then they are who they say they are. But I think everybody sees what Iman has done and sees what we did in the content space.
30:20I was like, I wanna be a part of that. I wanna be a part of the team. So we have, like, a good foundation of people wanting to come to us, first and foremost.
30:28But then second to that, like, if you have that foundation of everybody's full time and we're looking to, like, build a proper company Mhmm. And make sure everybody is aligned with the culture, everyone's aligned with the values and the vision of what we're doing Mhmm.
30:41Then generally speaking, once they're in the organization, it's up to their manager to make sure that they're having the best time possible.
30:49Not the best like, when I say the best time possible, it's like they are fulfilling their requirements as a team member, but they're also growing into that role. They're they feel like they're learning something.
31:02They're not just doing Mhmm. The thing, doing the thing over and over and over again. Like, Iman and I sat down, and we realized that, you know, especially for video editors, there is a ceiling.
31:14Yeah. There's a point in which if you're paying them full time, there's a point in which the amount that you pay them does doesn't make sense for you as the business owner because they're not doing anything more than that, you know, so called ceiling.
31:28And so when we approach that, we'd be able to say, okay. This person is starting off on x. What's their runway?
31:35Mhmm. And what does their ceiling look like? Mhmm.
31:38And once we figured that out, it was sort of like a eighteen month period between the person joining and then the person leaving. Like, that was sort of like the consistency.
31:47Yeah. And for us, like, with all the culture stuff aside with, you know, people wanting to come work with us, it's a really interesting thing to be in the online space as a creative.
31:59Because if you think about it, we hired these video editors. Some of them are, like, you know, 17, 18, 19, maybe fresh out of school or had one job before coming to work with us, and they're doing well, and we start to pay them a little bit more, start to pay them a little bit more.
32:13The only content that they're ever editing is about how to make a 100 k a month, 200 k a month, or this 16 year old made 50 k this month. Like, all the content is just encouraging them to make more and to go off and do something on their own.
32:26Like, it like, when you think about that, you're like, okay. Shit.
32:29Like, I I understand it. Like, I Yeah. It it breeds a certain amount of learning while editing too.
32:34Yeah. Like, oh, shit. It's actually how it works.
32:36Yeah. And so we would always know in, like, the interview process, like, if somebody had desire to do that. Yeah.
32:41I have the desire to be an entrepreneur. And if we knew that going into it and we still hired them, we would know, like, okay, eighteen months, give or take Yeah. Is probably what it's going to like, that's the timeline that we'll have them.
32:53Yeah. But generally speaking, I would say, like, how we would retain them is making sure that their ceiling is managed well, making sure that they're not making, you know, ridiculous increases in terms of compensation, like Yeah.
33:09Rewarding when good work is done Yeah. And doing it on a consistent basis so that they feel like they're growing. And with each compensation change, there is more responsibility given.
33:17And mix that with an environment which is not, like, cutthroat.
33:23Yeah. It's not like you miss a deadline and you're gone. Yeah.
33:26There are other departments in which if you missed your
33:29you know, what you had to deliver on, that you would be taken out very quickly. Yeah. But I was I would always kind of push against that.
33:36I wouldn't want to lead creatives with fear. Caleb Robson says it a lot. Like Yeah.
33:40You can't lead a creative team. You can't. Creatively, it's hard to do it that way.
33:43Like A 100%. Even even right now, some of our videos that we do, like, because I I talked to mean, Abdulrahman. Right?
33:48So we talk all the time and, like, he worked with some people and he was like, bro, these business guys, they just don't get it. Mhmm. Because people, something doesn't happen exactly or one edit is wrong or it's the wrong background music, like, they just go crazy.
33:59Yeah. But if you sit behind the scenes of a creative aspect, you understand, like, number one, it takes time. Yeah.
34:06And when you're, like from my perspective, I mean, I've never been an editor, but when you're editing, you're trying to be more creative, and you're trying to stack everything the right you're like, trying to build this puzzle. Yeah. Dude, no one gets the puzzle right on day one, you know?
34:17Exactly. And it's like, I think it's one of the only places where like, you have to give some room.
34:22Yeah. You know, especially if you want people to improve. For sure.
34:24And I think like, I think you've done that really well when we've spoken before. It's like, you give them the room to improve, but it's also like, hey, we need to find your ceiling and we need to, like, get to whatever goal you wanna get to. The ceiling is,
34:37I would say, is always good for the manager to know. It's not something that I would have necessarily, like, told Yeah.
34:43The candidate. Because, like, I don't want them to say, like, look, you've once you hit this number, you're Yeah. You're you're done.
34:49Like, that would have just been bad practice. Yeah. But what I would always say is, like, coming from a creative background, I was always, I would understand what made me feel fulfilled as a creative.
35:02Like, when I started working with Iman and I produced an edit and delivered it, he watched it, and he would send me a message like, holy fuck. That was great. Yeah.
35:09That's the dopamine hit. Yeah. Dopamine hit is real, man.
35:12Yeah. You are you strive to impress this person. Yeah.
35:16And as the team grows, you know, less and less is Iman involved with the sort of direct Mhmm. Reviewing.
35:23So he's not there to kind of give credit where credit is due, so then I have to step into that role. And make sure that guys, when they bust their ass Full time. Full circle full circle moment.
35:33Yeah. And, like, once if you realize somebody's, like, put in a good shift and worked hard on something, it's not it's one thing for them to be acknowledged for it.
35:42It's another thing for that person to also be acknowledged within the team. I think I think that's where a lot of people go wrong these days. Like, no one really gives
35:50credit to their team enough. Because it takes time to make a video good and to, like, go over it. Like, I think if most of these guys had to sit down and edit a video for once Yeah.
35:58They would completely, like Yeah. Tried to start editing once, you know, and I was like, alright, I'm a edit. And then thirty minutes in, was like, alright, bro.
36:04I think Yeah. There there is an art to it. Yeah.
36:07There is a whole art to it. Yeah. And it takes a long time to learn.
36:09Yeah. And I think that's also why, like sorry for cutting you off. That's also why, like, it's starting to cost more.
36:15Because a lot of these creatives now are like, you know, pay up. You know?
36:18Like, I'm not gonna be your little your little kid anymore. That's that's what's happening. Right?
36:22It's like A 100%. Obviously. Yeah.
36:23Like and all credit to them. Right? A 100%.
36:27Editors
36:28now know their worth in the online space. And I think for business owners, like, if we're talking about, like, things that where they go wrong Yeah.
36:36I think it's like you can hire an editor who is, like, on paper and with their, you know, references Yeah.
36:43Portfolio work like a fucking 10 out of 10. Yeah. But as soon as they get into the organization, they actually cause more problems than they actually are worth.
36:51That's interesting. So you wouldn't go with the best guy. I think there's a time and a place for the best guy for sure.
36:56But I think paying the best paying for the best guy as a business owner, you cut you approach that working relationship with the lens of, this person's gonna solve everything for me.
37:07Mhmm. Or I don't need to do that much. I just need to send them the footage, and they'll get it.
37:11Mhmm. And I think our approach was, you know and I think people are starting to catch on to it now.
37:17It's like our approach was, you know, whenever anybody joined the team, whether their, you know, their track record was stellar and they had all these examples and all this portfolio work, they would always join the team at a b player level.
37:30Okay. And so with that comes responsibility
37:34Sorry. One one question. When you mean b player is what does b player mean to you?
37:39Is it like they're good enough at editing? Yeah. Because
37:43we also wanna, like what we're trying to maybe separate for anyone who's watching is, like, they're still, like, consistent people. Yeah. They're, like, operationally driven in a sense, like, they're not gonna miss deadlines, but their editing is maybe, like, not all the way.
37:55Like, which part like, what makes them like a b player? Yeah. So I think the best way to split it up is, like, a b player is somebody who has the aptitude to do the thing.
38:03Okay. So if they're a video editor or they're a thumbnail designer, they can edit and create great thumbnails. Mhmm.
38:08They can deliver it on time. It's to a high quality. Right?
38:12Becoming an a player is about your attitude.
38:16Like Communication. Not just communication, but, like, taking it upon yourself to solve problems, be proactive within our organization, and find out newer ways or better ways of doing things.
38:28Because, like, me as a manager, I'll be the first one to put my hand up and say that I don't know the best ways to do everything. Mhmm. But sometimes, it takes a conversation with somebody who is doing the day to day work and say, I think there's a better way of doing this.
38:40So you would, like, give the room for your editors to also, like, speak up and give their own thing and make changes and everything. Yeah. A 100%.
38:47Not only just to, like, find maybe operational bottlenecks, but, like, more importantly, to, like, develop a sense of, like, collaboration.
38:56Like, create I think our editors felt most fulfilled and would create the best work when everybody became involved.
39:05It wasn't just I'm reviewing the video and I'll give you the feedback. It was like, you know, our lead editor would make a review. Our, you know, our short form editor would make a review, or our vlog editor would say, have you looked at this?
39:18Have you looked at this? And, like, I would try and introduce, like, creative sessions where the editors would then sit together without me and basically, like, shoot the shit.
39:28And so That's interesting, actually. Yeah. That part is interesting.
39:31Yeah. I think it's really interesting how people don't realize the extent to which you have to humanize your content team.
39:38Yeah. And I think a lot of people just see them as like this cog and like I mean, you said it about yourself, is obviously not true. Now that we're actually talking, but like, they just put them in this box and it's like, yeah, just here's the drive and just figure it out, and they just treat them like, you know, like they're not Separate.
39:54Exactly a separate part of the business and it's like, it is the business. Yeah. And I think it's interesting that you were saying like, you put them together, you have them have creative sessions and like, I think a lot of people, and I think that they just don't humanize their content team enough.
40:06Yeah. You know? They don't realize these guys have opinions, they have a style they think that could be interesting, they have their shots.
40:12Like, I have, like, my team be like, oh, this shot could be interesting, and try to film it this way, and, film a Luma at same time when you're doing this and I just take all of it. It's it's bonus.
40:20But I think some people, they don't approach it that way. And I think it's really interesting how the way you built up the whole system is by taking these guys that people might see as an editor or just a thumbnail guy or just creative strategist and, like, essentially turn them into, like, leaders and their own, like, brains of their own business under you.
40:39For sure. And I think that's, like, really cool. Yeah.
40:41And I think for any business owner who is looking to
40:45start or at least, like, keep it going in the long form of the content game Mhmm. Like, you want to have a team that is along for the ride.
40:55Mhmm. Right? And I think, like you said, humanizing.
40:59I think that's what Iman did. Like, Iman would basically give me the space to grow this thing and to, like, learn all those lessons to build out this content team.
41:11And that just meant that what he taught me then permeated throughout the rest of the team. And so it's like that element came about because we understood that content is gonna be a big part of what we do Mhmm.
41:24In the long term version of the business. Obviously, when I first joined, it was not. So it was funny to kinda see that change.
41:31Like, Iman famously said that I was the least ROI positive team member of the company. This is back before we were really doubling down on you. I think he's made content about that once.
41:38Right? I think so. Or he's like, I tried to mention it.
41:41Well, I I think he's I think he said once, he saw it as, like, the least important thing, and then it became the most important thing in the whole business. Yeah. And I think now, business owners, like, this is the most important thing I need to get on this.
41:51And I think if you if you start out with the mindset of, like, I'm just gonna hire a team, I'm not really gonna, like, interact with them that much, or I'm not gonna try and, like, you know, pour into them as much as I need to and just pay them a per edit basis, like, you'll get results as a reflection of the amount of effort that you put in.
42:09So it's just it's just a matter of, like, making sure that you are pouring into the creative team, humanizing them, as you say. Yeah. And over time, you'll see that everybody gets, like, brought along on this journey and on this kind of, like, the overall vision for where you wanna go with the content.
42:26And then that just means that, like, eventually,
42:29the results will be a reflection of that. Yeah. You know what think I just thought about?
42:33I remember I think I was talking to a friend of mine. Someone was gonna do this interview. Yeah.
42:36And he was like, dude, you should ask him, like, what like, who created the emojis style?
42:43Right? Like, who like, where did that where did that even, like, come from? Is it natural?
42:47Like, where did that come from? The quickest way to, like, debunk it was like, didn't sit in a room and go, how do we create the email? Yeah.
42:54There's a lot of that. Right? Obviously.
42:55You know what I mean? Like yeah. Yeah.
42:57I would say that it probably came around. There was two editors that worked for us. Mhmm.
43:03A gentleman called Tom and another guy called Nikola. Okay. Tom was, like, our first editor hire where we were specifically screening for animation style editors.
43:15And he came in. It was around the time that we were launching Digital Renaissance, the event. Mhmm.
43:21He came in and just, like, took our production quality in terms of the, like, the the edits to a different level in terms of, like, the expectation of what people wanna see. Everything before that was, like, fucking plug ins and, like, know Yeah. Slideshows that we would just, like, animate onto the screen.
43:36Like, you know, not proud of it, man enough to say, oh, that shit. You know? Like Holy brain rock.
43:46That's yeah. Look. I'm tapped in.
43:49Tapped That's why I like, that was the reality. So we knew going into it, we want somebody that's gonna kinda, like, level things up.
43:57What made you guys wanna even do animations? We were just, like like, how can we make our videos better at the end of the day?
44:03We we were looking at the stuff that we were doing and we're, how can we it wasn't like we were looking at somebody and saying, this is fucking great. Like, we need to do something like this.
44:11It was just like, we need to be leveling up. What are the skill sets that we're lacking right now on the team? Mhmm.
44:17And whenever we did hiring, we were lucky to get, like, such an influx of candidates, like, thousands upon thousands of candidates. So it's like, if you just screen for, like, specific things, then people would come to us and be like, okay.
44:30I need a a very special, like, special effects editor. Okay.
44:34Yeah. And, like, with that, we would get a fucking mix. We get people who are like, you know, I can do all of these, like, blender animations that I've done for feature films.
44:43Mhmm. I'm like, oh, can you do, like, you know, infographic animations on YouTube videos? Like, yeah.
44:48But it's kinda, like, below my pay grade a little bit. Yeah. So we were lucky.
44:53We were we were lucky. And when we when we screened for it, we got a guy called Tom. And then Nikola is actually, like, quite a funny not funny, but it was, like, for me, it's something that I look back on.
45:05I'm I'm quite proud of that I did. It was we were looking for another editor. And at that time, the short form team had, you know, was, you know, probably, like, 50 plus people deep.
45:15So what's that? '23? End of twenty twenty two, beginning of twenty twenty three.
45:20Because I was post to Andrew Tate and then okay. Yeah. And, like, we had this team built out.
45:25Yeah. And it was, we can do another hiring round. I was, why don't we just, like, screen the short form team?
45:31Like, let's see if there's somebody there worth our time. Mhmm. And it was one challenge, and it wasn't like anything like, they had to edit YouTube videos specifically.
45:41But it was just like, keep doing what you're doing, but, like, I came into a meeting. I was like, guys, there's this position open. We want somebody who has experience in After Effects.
45:50We don't want you to edit YouTube video. I just want you to, like, fucking go crazy on your next short form video. Like, I want you to create something that is gonna be like, wow.
45:57Yeah. And Nicola created something, and it was a short form reel. And I was like, holy shit.
46:03This is great. Yeah. And so we very quickly took him, placed him into the long form team, and then he just ran with it.
46:11Like, he just kind of he just caught his stride. Long form videos was his format.
46:18Mhmm. And then he very quickly became our editor that we leaned on for everything, you know, prerecorded events, trailers, YouTube videos.
46:27Like, he was the guy that when we talk about b player versus a player, he had the aptitude so he could do the thing, but he had the attitude of, like, always trying to make the next video better. He's gonna clip this up so hard.
46:41That's fine. Like, I have so much respect it. I
46:45I'm not here to gatekeep, but I'm not here to like Honestly, like, we were talking. That's one thing I I think is is probably key to why you guys grew like that.
46:53Yeah. Is, like, your openness and the amount of, like, respect you gave them and the amount of, like, how seriously you took it. Yeah.
47:00But how you treated it is, like, I think obviously, Iman was a vision and like, he probably pushed a lot of stuff, but Yeah. I think that's like so important.
47:09And I think a lot of people don't like, you have to give them the chance. You know what I Like, you have to try something new and people nowadays, they don't wanna try anything new.
47:17Yeah. You know, they just want to get a portfolio, they wanna send a video out, and it's perfect. And I think it's interesting how like, you're actively looking, actively trying, actively testing, you know, trying new people out, getting all this volume out, and then per maybe a 100 people you speak to, you'd find the next person.
47:33Yeah. So it would look like, from the outside, it's like, oh, Emon keeps on doing these next big things and his content is always getting to next level, but behind it, it's like hundreds of people are getting screened, hundreds of people are getting tested and given chances and everything, and then boom, one person comes out.
47:47Yeah. But that's all because like And out of a place that you least expect. Right?
47:50Exactly. And I think it's all because you guys were, number one, willing to lose money, willing to test,
47:55but you also understood that, like, what you get today is never the end all be all Yeah. Of the product, and I think that's, like, really sick. I look at, you know, a client that I'm working with right now.
48:03You know, we're trying to build out the team. Mhmm. And the baseline of the team is everybody's on sort of some form of, like, incentivized pay.
48:11And for editors, you know, if you have somebody who's kind of, like, the editor that everybody leans on inside of an organization who's on, like, a baseline salary plus an incentive, if he's getting paid per video that he edits and I come in and tell him, we're hiring another editor, he goes, woah. Woah.
48:26Woah. Yeah. How is that gonna affect my baseline?
48:29Like, can be paid less? Yeah. And so I think that's where I think the beauty of, one, obviously, going back to, you know, full time versus freelance.
48:38But two, I would always go into like, the end goal was for me to not be editing anymore because, like, my skill set was not there. It was always just finding the next best editor to add to our add to our team add to our team.
48:51Who's the guy that can come in and kind of keep, like, changing things up or keep suggesting new things or, you know, being somebody that we need to kind of, like, fill a very specific role within the editing team?
49:02Would you say that it worked because you had good taste? Like, good enough taste?
49:09Yeah. Like, I I could just like, I can look at a portfolio of editors and know when somebody can edit to some form of, like, emotion.
49:17They can take a clip that has, you know, no perceived value and then turn it into something that is, like, fun to watch or has entertainment value.
49:28And I can kind I can pretty much tell when an editor has, like, you know, the basics in After Effects. Mhmm. But it's like, okay.
49:35They have the basics, but then do they have the attention to detail? So it's like, you look at it on this top level of, like, they can do animations, but then the bottom level is, like, what are the small things that they do to make sure that their output is perfect?
49:46Okay. And
49:48I think now I wanna get into, like, a bit of the juicy stuff, which is what makes someone a really good head of content? This one is it's an interesting one because I think there is such a problem in this space right now of, like, business owners looking for head of contents. Right?
50:01Mhmm. And we were talking before this. It's like, you know, I have a client right now who wants me to mentor his creative director or his head of content, whatever you wanna call it.
50:13And I came into it with my understanding that, you know, a head of content should have a balance between a creative mindset and an operational mindset. And he wants this person to just focus on the creative.
50:26And I think that's fine, but I do think that at a certain point, when you're wanting to scale an operation, you need somebody that is going to take ownership and responsibility of, like, the operational side of things.
50:39But they have to have taste. The yeah. Right?
50:41For sure. Yeah. But, like, the space is so flooded now with incredibly talented people.
50:46Mhmm. That it's quite easy to to, like, decipher good good content versus not. Right?
50:51But, like, if we're really boiling it down to, like, the key elements that I would say that make up a good head of content is somebody who is creative, yes, but not that psycho creative Yeah. We spoke about it.
51:02Yeah. But is that person who has a balance between creativity Mhmm.
51:07But also operations. Like, has the ability to see something, notice inefficiencies, and be able to kind of create a system that solves that.
51:17So okay. Now, like, speaking of operations,
51:20what does an operation, like, look like for, like, a really good, like, content team? Say say for someone who's watching.
51:27Right? Like, I wouldn't say someone, like, completely brand new to content, but they're someone making content Yeah.
51:32Which is most people that you work with up until now. It's like someone that's like, they're doing okay Yeah. But they're not doing crazy.
51:37Yeah. So from your perspective, what's the diff like, what does that team look like?
51:42So the different layers or just like the team members involved? Well, if I'm watching, I'm probably thinking like, okay, like, I'm gonna try to get a video out every single week. Yeah.
51:52So that's like this is what people are thinking. Right? It's like, have like hell of thumbnails I have to film.
51:57Yeah. And then I have this YouTube video that I film, and then I don't even know I'm gonna get the YouTube video out. Yeah.
52:01And then frame is the IO is being sent every in every single group chat, I can't keep up with that. Then it's like, okay. We wanna clip this video up.
52:08So the video now is now is getting clipped, but then it's like, how does that process even work? Then it's like, the clips are getting out, and then I have to tell the next YouTube video, and then it's like, oh, I also have to do a student interview that might go on this other channel.
52:19And then it's like, oh, about to run a story sequence and we need to have this creative thing done. And then, oh, wait. I'm also gonna run ads.
52:24Right? So it's like, anyone who's watching is like like That's a lot.
52:29You know, like, they just watch Iman, Charlie, and these guys and it's like,
52:32how do they get all that volume out? So for me, it's like, what does that machine look like? Yeah.
52:37So the best way to, like, split it up is you have three levels. You have your c suite. You can have the people at the very top of the organization.
52:44Mhmm. Then you have your managers, and you have your makers. Mhmm.
52:48Managers are people who have their foot in the making. So it's a video editor who has leadership abilities Mhmm.
52:57Or thumbnail designer who has leadership abilities. And then at the maker level, you just have the people doing the thing. You have the video editors, you have the short form editors, you have the the thumbnail designers.
53:06Okay. What you want is clear distinctions between those levels.
53:12So the c suite managers, makers Mhmm. You have one person assigned to each discipline, whether it's video, whether it's short form, whether it's thumbnails.
53:21That's what how operation works. So a manager per section? A manager per, like Right.
53:27Department. And some people try to get one guy to just Yeah. Like, if you are if you are a business owner and you're like, I only have one thumbnail guy, I have one video editor, and I have a short form.
53:35You can have one guy manager. Yeah. Those guys can be the owners.
53:38They can be the managers. They don't have to be at the maker level because, like, they can just take on the responsibilities I see. Of the manager level.
53:44You don't need to hire somebody specific for those roles. Yeah. If you have a couple of people already in the organization, say you have, like, two or three editors, you have two, like, two thumbnail designers, and you have, like, two short form editors.
53:55Okay. If you're a business owner, you generally know what kind of, like, good leadership traits look like. So you can probably identify somebody who is willing to take on more responsibility Mhmm.
54:05And has the aptitude to be able to do it and be able to, you know, meet your expectations of the additional responsibilities you wanna give them. So just sit down, have a conversation with them, and delegate tasks to them. Okay.
54:16And once you have those kind of clear lines in the sound of, like, manager and maker, then it means that the makers are left to do the thing. Okay.
54:25And the managers are the ones who are connecting the dots. Right? So it's like, I'm being told that there's a YouTube video being filmed.
54:32Okay. The manager for the long form knows about it. Mhmm.
54:35Once the manager of the long form has cut down the video or the makers cut down the editors cut down the video, he knows to inform whoever's in charge of the short form department. So then they that footage gets sent to the short form department.
54:47The short form department start clipping up the footage. Same thing goes once the video is edited on the long form. Okay.
54:53It goes to the thumbnail team. Yeah. And it's like, it went from me being the guy connecting all of the dots before I had that management team.
54:59Mhmm. You take that management team away, head of content is responsible for delegating and connecting everything. If you have that management level and everybody knows what is required of them, like, once there is an action, so a new video being filmed Mhmm.
55:13What are the sort of subtasks that permeate off of that task? So it's, okay, video is being filmed. It needs to be edited.
55:19It needs to get a thumbnail needs to be made. Mhmm. Okay.
55:21It needs to be sent to the short form team. Okay. Ads have come in.
55:24How do we manage which editor is working on what so we can get the ads out quicker Mhmm. And make sure that the YouTube video doesn't get affected. And so it's like that management level was really like a breakthrough for me where I went from doing so much of, like, the admin or, like, the connecting of the dots within the department.
55:42And all it took was for me to have that management level and for me to sit down with them three times a week. Yeah. And whenever there was a question of, like, I need this, I'm like, go talk to this person.
55:53And if you need it again, talk to them again. And it's like, after that, like, everybody knew in that management level Who to speak to? Who to speak to.
55:59That sucks. So it was never hatred saying we're waiting on this. If it was, like, for example, like, the only thing where I would necessarily, like, have to get involved was it was, like, short form guys were waiting on Iman to shoot podcast clips with Alex.
56:14And, like, our head of short form has messaged Iman multiple times, and he hasn't got back to him. I know I have a meeting scheduled with Iman later that day.
56:23So I'm like, Iman, get back to Hassan. Like, he needs he needs the podcast clips Yeah.
56:29For the short form. We're short on content. Alright.
56:31So it's like, was able to, like, get answers quicker just by my proximity to maybe the key decision makers within the organization. But that management level, if you are delegating tasks and you're delegating the responsibilities according to the departments Mhmm.
56:46The amount of shit you can take off of your plate as a head of content is pretty incredible. And what that freed me up to do was just monitor the teams, monitor the interpersonal relationships within the teams, make sure everyone's happy, make sure everyone's getting paid enough.
57:00Yeah. And then also work on the projects like the events, work on the projects like Which we're gonna get to. Yeah.
57:05We'll sure we'll get we'll unpack that. Everyone still cares about that. Yeah.
57:09And, like, just make sure that the team is progressing and, like, freed me up to do the higher ROI things Yeah. In the business. But before we go into the events Yeah.
57:19So obviously, now, everyone's talking about, like, creative director and everything. It's so funny because no one talks about a head of content. Mhmm.
57:26Right? Like, when people when tell people, like, oh, like, was Tristan like his creative director? I'm like, no, that's probably the creative stuff, it was more so Alex.
57:33And then people are like, how does that make sense? And then I'm like, is this like structure behind the the madness?
57:39And is it the madness? Know? A 100%.
57:41Yeah. What's the like for someone watching right now, everyone is always putting job posts, know. And Hassan's behind the camera smiling because he spoke about this the other day.
57:50But like, everyone is looking for like a creative director, which is basically which basically means like, give me this one person and they will just figure everything out. Yeah.
57:58Yeah. What's the actual difference between a creative director
58:01and a head of content? I mean, you answered it. Like, it's it's the craziness and the chaos of a creative director having all of these incredible ideas and, like, taking the content and maybe taking it down a road that is different to what is on the sort of current content plan.
58:17Mhmm. And a head of content is somebody who is coming in, maybe has half of the creativity of that creative director Mhmm.
58:24But is so operationally minded that knows how to build out all of the systems and build the foundation within a team. That means that once the content starts taking off and the business owner wants to then scale their output, everything is there, like, already built out.
58:42And so a head of content can be equally as creative, but I think creative directors, I would say, are so hyper fixated on the creative.
58:50So hyper like, they're so tapped into the culture. They're so tapped into niches and the types of content that are being filmed that they can easily identify, this is a great video.
58:59This is a great format. We need to take it to this niche. A head of content is somebody that can do that.
59:04Mhmm. But, you know, 50% of the time is also split up by looking at how teams are structured, how teams are paid, like, what do like, what are the workflows between, you know, managers and makers and building out that structure so that one when the business owner wakes up one day and he goes, I wanna post fucking five times a day with that team, it's like that head of content goes, you're not gonna be able to do that with the team that you currently have.
59:28You need to build out you need to have these people come in. These are the people that are gonna be responsible for Yes. You're not gonna have like, you, the business owner, are not gonna have to hire these people because the manager in the short form team is trained up, knows how to interview people, knows how to screen and and find good candidates.
59:44That's so interesting. And then it's like everywhere that like, I did I never had to onboard Yeah.
59:50Any team members. Like, as soon as the decision was made, the manager of the team or the department would know who to then speak to so then get this person onboarded, get their email set up, get the matter to everything.
1:00:00It's like, that level of delegation is not laziness. It's just complete efficiency.
1:00:05Wow. Because it just means that I don't have to sit there and fucking add this person to Slack or Mhmm. Add the like, create this person's email.
1:00:12It's like everybody had kind of their roster of responsibilities. Mhmm. And if it if it meant that they had to then go notify somebody else, they would know what to do.
1:00:19Okay. And so having a head of content means that systems like that get built out. Mhmm.
1:00:23I would say that creative directors are, like we said, so hyper fixated on the content side of things and, like, the creative side of things that they can take your content to a next level.
1:00:36A head of content can take your content to the next level, but at a slower pace. Mhmm. But the systems that they build out will create a content engine or content machine that has the ability to scale Mhmm.
1:00:48And has the structure where the business owner or the head of content can kind of take a step out of the the operations and just focus on their highest ROI things.
1:00:58Okay. Interesting. And
1:01:00when it comes to, like, YouTube, you guys are obviously really known for that. Yeah. I know we spoke the other day, and you were really big on, like, you know, I did my stuff.
1:01:08We did our things, but there was also drawing up narratives Yeah. Which you mentioned, like, Iman and Luis also had a lot to do with. Mhmm.
1:01:16I think that's a component that even the first time you mentioned it to me, was like, it's more interesting than what I thought because people would assume that it's like, okay. Oh, so it was like, you know, just Tristan and Alex, you know?
1:01:25But then it's like, there's another part to the puzzle. And so what did that look like
1:01:31between, you know, someone like Luis who is like, if I if I hear right, like, he's, like, kinda drawing the narrative of, like So he was our CMO. So he was the driving factor behind all of our launches. Okay.
1:01:42Sense of, like, he was the one crafting together all of, like, the concept with Iman. Okay. He would just go away and script all of the VSLs.
1:01:51He would script all of the event videos, whether they were prerecorded or the live webinars. Mhmm. And he's spending weeks and weeks and weeks just creating these pieces of copy that are, like, perfect.
1:02:02Right? Yeah. And so he at certain times, like, when we're doing the prerecorded stuff, you know, the things where it's like, you know, whale season, digital renaissance, time's up, all those things that we're pretty well known for.
1:02:15Like, they would come up with the the marketing team would come up with the overall narrative and kind of, like, the time period or the, I guess, the the angle which we're approaching this event. And then it would be up to me, Alex, and Iman to curate visuals, to curate a narrative that basically accompanies and emphasizes all the points that we're trying to make.
1:02:41It kind of brings it it all together. And so Luis like like I said, I was just cog in a in a much bigger machine.
1:02:48Like, I will be the one to sit here and say that I took no credit for any of the events. Like, Luis is the mastermind behind that a 100%, and him and Iman worked so closely during these speeches. I can I imagine?
1:02:59Yeah. And it's, like, crazy. Like, Luis would spend weeks and weeks and weeks working on these these scripts.
1:03:04Yeah. And then we would go into, like, a period like, if we're talking the prerecorded stuff Yeah. We will go into a period of, like, maybe two weeks where we're filming or maybe, like, ten days where we sit down and we film everything, the first episode, the second episode, the trailers, all of it in, like, that time period.
1:03:20And during that, Alex and I are sitting down with other people that we bring in, like, Kriya Tyler. I'm sure maybe you know him, maybe you don't. He came in and, like, helped us curate the narrative as well, create the treatments.
1:03:36He was very much the director. We were probably more on the producing side. And so Luis creates the sort of script he creates the overall angle and the overall kind of message.
1:03:46Mhmm. And then we're tasked with creating it and turning it into a vision. Okay.
1:03:50And for the webinars, it's a bit different. It's the scripts are done by Luis,
1:03:55again. Yeah. And So it's like Luis and Aman kinda figuring out the messaging, the narrative, what they agree on, first draft.
1:04:02Then it's like, you guys get the thing. It's like, okay. Now we need to pick, like, the venue of where it's gonna be.
1:04:07Like, who who picks actually? Like, I'm actually I think everyone's curious, like, who picks where the events, like, happen?
1:04:12Because they're always at, like, different locations.
1:04:14So I think it really comes down to Anand's opinion. Okay.
1:04:18Yeah. Anand was go like, we we we filmed one in, a studio on a stage for 8 figure personal brand launch Yep. Which was remember.
1:04:26More of the higher ticket offer. And that was, like, we needed to film feel like a sort of in person seminar or in person summit, you know, kind of like one of the big ones that, you know, the Tony Robbins do, the do. And so it's like, okay.
1:04:40We'll find a stage. So I have to have to find a sound stage that had a some form of, like, LED screen, had the ability to do live streaming, figure out what exactly were their capabilities or bandwidth for Internet, and then figure out how we're gonna set up all of the cameras.
1:04:56And it would just be a lot of back and forth meetings, me, Alex, with that company, with that production company in the the venue. And then the times where it's, like, it's in Iman's house.
1:05:07Like, we would do that just based off of, like, one convenience, but two, we knew that, like, we were gonna be starting these livestreams at 09:00 at night. These could go on until, like, one, two, 03:00 in the morning.
1:05:19It's free to shoot at Iman's Yeah. House versus shooting in a studio, there's cost.
1:05:24And not that that that's, like, the main reason, but we did feel that, like, the experience wasn't elevated from being on a stage and having multiple cameras.
1:05:33It was, I think people just wanna learn from Iman as if they're sat down in in an office with him. So if someone's, like, watching and thinking, oh, we need to do this crazy thing, it's like, it doesn't really matter.
1:05:42It's it's It doesn't really matter. Yeah. It's just a feeling, like Yeah.
1:05:46For us, we knew that we wanted to kind of control the variables. We knew these things were gonna run on. We don't wanna feel any sort of pressure to stop it because there is a hard cutoff time from the studio.
1:05:56Mhmm. We knew that we could build an environment where it was very, you know, comfortable and the Wi Fi connection was incredible, and we would have what this the exact same setup. Mhmm.
1:06:05And it would you know, the streams would go off without a hitch. And when we approached it like that, it was like, okay.
1:06:12Great. We just like, the most we're gonna do is probably, like, improve the backgrounds or shoot them in different places in the house.
1:06:18And at that point, like, it's just logistics, figuring out, okay. If we're gonna shoot in the living room, how do we get a wired Internet connection into the computer that is running the livestream in the living room versus the office?
1:06:29Mhmm. But that's just Pretty straightforward.
1:06:32Yeah. Just hire a WiFi specialist. Yeah.
1:06:34And they they come out and they fucking fix it in an afternoon. Yeah. But kind of like the other studios were just dependent on where Iman was.
1:06:45Right? We had another launch that we did, and we had to shoot it in a studio in London. And a lot of these places are pretty well suited to live streaming now.
1:06:54And so it's just finding one that fits within the budget that is has a decent travel time to get to and basically just meets our expectations.
1:07:03And so in that scenario, we would say, okay. We have a three day live event. We would book four days.
1:07:09And that day before is just a day testing Mhmm. Myself and the team that's running the studio.
1:07:15So we have everything set up so that the day that we do the launch, Iman just walks in, everything's set up, maybe he runs a test for about thirty minutes Mhmm. And everything's good to go. Because Iman hates to sit and just wait for shit to happen.
1:07:28He's like, I wanna sit down, and I wanna record, and then I wanna go do something else. It's like he can't, like, he can't just sit here and not do something. Yeah.
1:07:35So if he's waiting around, he'll be on his phone and be texting. So we we knew that his time was precious. Yeah.
1:07:39So we we knew going into all of these shoots that we would have to, like, optimize or at least go into it where everything is planned out, everything is set and ready to go. So it just varied based off of what was the event type and then where exactly was Iman in the world.
1:07:55Okay. That's so interesting. Yeah.
1:07:57Okay.
1:07:59Well, I guess now we get to the juicy part. Okay. Right?
1:08:03Yeah. Obviously, the main question everyone's gonna have is, you know, did you did you leave?
1:08:10Was it a split? Mhmm. Did you put out a video that was, like, bad?
1:08:15Yeah. Obviously, you didn't. Like, people are gonna have all sorts of ideas.
1:08:19What's the gossip? Right? Yeah.
1:08:21Exactly. Because, I mean, nowadays, right, if someone's leaving, it's like, you know, who who just leaves because they want to? But I guess in your case, I mean, I know now it's pretty different.
1:08:30What, like, you know, what made you wanna switch? Like, I guess, how how what was the situation?
1:08:34So the funny thing is is, like, everybody that I speak to that knows myself or Iman is like, what happened?
1:08:44Is everything okay? Yeah. I'm like like, they want more gossip than I can give them because it it like, honestly, it couldn't have happened in a more amicable way.
1:08:56Yeah. I think if we look back at it, like, when I joined Iman, I was doing agency navigator.
1:09:04Like, I bought this program. And I think, like, we were talking about when you hire people, if somebody has, like, an inkling to become an entrepreneur, you take note of that because at some point, they may wanna leave. I knew that at some point, was gonna wanna do something for myself.
1:09:18Mhmm. But I think I put it off so many years because I was along on the journey. I knew what we were building, and I thought it was so impactful.
1:09:26Mhmm. And not that any of that changed, but I think I just saw an opportunity Mhmm.
1:09:30To step away and Yeah. And do it, having built such a reputation by working with Yeah.
1:09:36The man himself. And I think Iman being so clued in and him and I having such a close relationship over the years, he also knew. Yeah.
1:09:44Yeah. So it wasn't like a massive shock to him. I mean, the one thing I'll say is, like,
1:09:49you also like, mean, the way you explained it to me is you built such good systems that it's like Yeah. Yeah. It just became uninteresting at that point.
1:09:55I I don't think maybe not uninteresting, but it's like you kinda did what you had to do Yeah. And you built the system for the machine to run For sure. Without you.
1:10:02And so it's like, what's next? Yeah. You know?
1:10:04That's what it sounded like for me, which is like, that's probably the best compliment Yeah. You could get to A 100%.
1:10:10I did what I had to do and, like, you know, I delivered, which I think Yeah. At the end, yes, you guys it was a working relationship, but it's like, you know, he came in, he gave you a chance, and you literally came and, like, transformed it, and you did what you had to do, and it's, like, next chapter kind of. Right?
1:10:24For sure. I think the
1:10:25the kind of, like, defining moment was, I think, it was sort of towards the end of last year, I had to go away for, like, a friend's wedding. And it was, like, in the run up period Yeah. For an event.
1:10:36And usually, I go off on these trips, and it's like, you know, you get one or two days, and then messages are flying in. Hey. We need you to do this, or hey.
1:10:43What where is this? Blah blah blah. And on on these, like, four days, I didn't get a single message.
1:10:48I was like, shit. Okay. Like, mhmm.
1:10:51Yeah. In my mind, I'm like, fuck. Maybe something really bad has happened that somebody hasn't told me or everything's going fine.
1:10:58Yeah. And obviously, everything was going fine. And I think, like like you said, yeah, I had almost served my purpose.
1:11:03Mhmm. Like, the teams had gotten so good that I didn't need to oversee nearly as much as I thought I would need to.
1:11:13Mhmm. And so to your point, I don't think the work ever got boring Yeah. Because there was always something to be Always happening.
1:11:19Yeah. Yeah. The pace in which we would do things was just remarkable.
1:11:22Mhmm. But I think it was, like, for me, it was the it was the sign that it might be the right time to go do something else.
1:11:31It's not like I'm leaving them in a worse off position. Mhmm. I'm leaving them where everything is working.
1:11:38And so why not take the opportunity now to go see what it's like doing something for myself? Mhmm. And, yeah, I was so worried about it, having been the second longest standing team member at the company.
1:11:51Mhmm. But Iman, yeah, couldn't have been more gracious about it and, like, left on such good terms that we're still very good friends today.
1:11:58And I think there were so many people that I saw leave the company where, you know, it was just, like, complete communication cut off because they left on bad terms.
1:12:08Mhmm. But in this regard, it was, like, my mission was to not do that and make sure that I stay close with all of those guys because, you know, I wasn't I'm not the personnel the personality that I am today or have the experience that I am today without that opportunity.
1:12:22Yeah. So I can't negate that. And all the people that I worked with over the years was, like, incredible.
1:12:27So it's just I think everybody goes through chapters of their life where it's like, this is what I need to be focusing on. And Yeah. That chapter ended, and I was ready to to move on to the next.
1:12:37I I think everyone's wondering now, like, you know, it's like, what are you up to? Like, what's what's the
1:12:43Yeah. You know, what what like, what is your up to today? What's the move right now?
1:12:47What do you I I think the main thing I would ask you is, like, when did you get that, like, feeling of, like, I could maybe help other people with something?
1:12:57What was that something? Where did you get that itch? For
1:13:00me, it was just always wanting if I'd like, looking back at it, wanting to join and work with Iman, I was like, I'm gonna work with this guy for a year. Mhmm.
1:13:09Learn all of his kind of, like, behind the fucking curtain secrets. Yeah. And then just go off and do that.
1:13:14Like, I was so naive. But I felt that I had learned so much over these last five years. Mhmm.
1:13:21One, as, like, a person with a skill set, but two, also as somebody that is more business minded than I was five years ago. And so I felt like I had really learned a lot from Iman of what what it takes to run a business.
1:13:34I'm still learning those lessons because he was keeping a lot of them secret in terms of, like, the real shit. It was more about just kind of seeing what how I could turn what I learned with Iman into a service or skill set.
1:13:48Yeah. And for me, it's like, it's changing every day. You know, we spoke about it very soon after I left, and it was sort of one idea.
1:13:57Now very much it's sort of shifting to another thing of, like, how I'm best positioned to help business owners. Mhmm. And I think for me, I had originally gone into it saying that it's creative oversight and, you know, watching and seeing the creative process or content system within a business owner's operations of, like, ideation through to the delivery, through to the packaging, all of that.
1:14:19And it's, like, covering all of that. And it is that. Mhmm.
1:14:21What I'm finding is is yielding the best results or is is kinda like building the best foundations for business owners is all of, like, the system side.
1:14:31Like, really looking at a business owner's operations and saying that you're losing time here or this is just fucking inefficiency. Like, you shouldn't be focusing on that. You're pouring too much time and energy into the wrong thing.
1:14:43Mhmm. Focus it here. And so that's, I think, is kind of the new or not new direction.
1:14:48Would say it's just it's the direction that I'm learning that business owners find the most valuable. Mhmm. Because the problem, like we spoke about, is business owners want somebody to come in and solve all their fucking problems.
1:15:00Yeah. Which is not how it works. Yeah.
1:15:01And so for me, it's like finding what I'm good at, doing that, and then having the conviction to then be able to do that for other people.
1:15:10Mhmm. And right now, that's kinda where I'm at is having left is very much finding my footing Mhmm. Of how I can best help business owners.
1:15:17And once I've done that, then I know exactly with conviction what exactly is the biggest ROI for business owners, and then just replicating that. Yeah. And then in, like, in today's world, what do you think is,
1:15:28like, the main place someone to start? Is it YouTube? Is it Instagram?
1:15:32Like, what what do you feel like is the biggest lever that someone can pull to really, like, focus on? I think
1:15:39the best way to look at it is that short form is a platform or Instagram.
1:15:45You know, anything that is, you know, short form TikTok, Instagram Reels. Those things are great for developing a personal brand that is maybe here one day and gone the next.
1:15:58Mhmm. Right? You can it's all about volume.
1:16:01Mhmm. And it's all about what staying up to date and people seeing the next new thing from you.
1:16:07I think YouTube is an asset that can long live after you stop posting. It's like, you know, you look at what Iman's done and documented his journey, and that that has formed the foundation for everything that we talk about in terms of, like, I was doing this, then I did this, then I did this.
1:16:26You can see my journey, and you can see how I changed as an individual on my channel. Mhmm. And not just, like, from the documenting side of things, but, like, actually delivering value to people who then become indoctrinated into you, the personality, and, like, basically following you because they really like what you can provide them in terms of value, but also you as personality.
1:16:50And so YouTube is something that is just going to be your legacy, whereas short form is something that is maybe, you know, is always gonna be, like, focusing on the next hot trend or or, like That's interesting.
1:17:01Stay on top of the versus, like, new trends. Yeah. And I think if you look at it that way, then it's like you know what you're putting into it.
1:17:08You know, like, Sam Gaudet spoke about, you know, Dan talking to him and saying, like, I'm just gonna do go crazy with content for the next ten years.
1:17:19And if nothing comes from it, then great. But we are doing it for the next ten years. And I think business owners now are like, I need to go in short form, and, like, I need to get hundreds of thousands of views and generate leads.
1:17:29It's like, generally, it's it's a sick and cruel world in the sense that people who go into it with that mindset generally don't see the success. It's the people who go into it and go, I just wanna see what happens. Yeah.
1:17:39Those are the people that actually catch on, like, can really develop audiences, and that that's not something that you can kind of, like, teach per se, but it's a it's a mindset. Exactly.
1:17:48So it's always like, for me, I think YouTube is is the biggest because you can always pull back on you can always, like, focus and double down on short form Mhmm. At any time.
1:17:58Right? But YouTube is something that you'd be really proud of in ten years' time if you started making videos to be able to look back and see how far you've come in terms of skill set of filming yourself on video Yeah. Or the value that you're you're giving and, like, showing the steps of how you developed as an educator or business owner and be and having that proof.
1:18:21Mhmm. And I think if if there's anything that people should take away from today, it's like start a YouTube channel and start posting now. Mhmm.
1:18:27Because then if you don't, like, you'll just you'll be behind everybody else. I think even, like obviously, I get to see the behind the scenes of everything. The
1:18:36people that make the most amount of money is from YouTube. Like, you know, we see all the data every single day, and it's like Instagram and TikTok can feel like quick dopamine hits.
1:18:46Yeah. But the real audiences still buy from YouTube.
1:18:50Like, we'll see a lot of people come from TikTok to Instagram. I think that could, like I mean, obviously, it's a shameless plug, but that's people don't really understand it. Yeah.
1:18:58But now that I get to the actual correlation Yeah. If you just have Instagram and TikTok, you're not gonna make that much money.
1:19:05And actually, funny enough, you're not really gonna build, like you're 're gonna gonna build an audience, but that's just gonna disappear super fast. Yeah. But if you build that YouTube with it, that's where the conversions really happen.
1:19:15That's where the nurturing really happens. And that's where everything like actually happens. Yeah.
1:19:20And we track you like rigorously. Mhmm. And what we realized is like the offers that do the best, for example, per follower, per subscriber, 50% of their traffic source or their audience is on YouTube Yeah.
1:19:31Which is, like, it's substantially high. Even, like, Sweetheart, we're talking about it, 10 x the business just from just from that platform itself.
1:19:37Yeah. And I think that that people should have that as a foundation and everything else should pretty much, like, lead into it.
1:19:43Yeah. And, obviously, we were talking about the other day. That's a true operation.
1:19:48I think if you're just doing short form, it's
1:19:50the short form people love to, like, you know, sit on it and say, oh, this is the best way to do it and everything, but it's, like, very Yeah. Like this all the time. A 100%.
1:19:59And I think, like, if you just think about it, like, I think it was Linden you guys had your conversation. It was like, who are you most likely to buy from? Is it the guy that is watching, you know, five or six reels Yeah.
1:20:11Of you a day at thirty seconds a pop? Or is it the guy that sits down and watches 28 out of thirty minute video and then goes on and watches the next one? Yeah.
1:20:19Obviously, it's the second guy. Yeah. Right?
1:20:21And I think that people who create content on YouTube and build out these audiences, those audiences are just cult like.
1:20:29They are following you because they love what you provide in terms of value and also the way that you present it. And they will like, the people who are binging your videos are the people that will end up buying from you Yeah.
1:20:40Without hesitation Yeah. Versus short form content where if if you're thinking about just, like, the amount of time it takes to sort of indoctrinate somebody or, like, build enough trust for them to go, I think I'm gonna buy from this person.
1:20:52Mhmm. Especially if it's, like, a higher price point item or offer.
1:20:56Like, if they're sitting down and they're watching maybe one or two fifteen minute videos, like, how many short form videos do they have to watch in succession Mhmm. To match the same amount of time after watching a fifteen minute YouTube video?
1:21:09Mhmm. How many is it? Right?
1:21:10Like,
1:21:11it's it's a lot of fucking short form reels. It needs a lot of scrolling, you know. We did we did the math.
1:21:16It's like 480 times. 480 reels to match one YouTube video. Depending on the length, but, like, typically, that's what it is.
1:21:22So then, like, that in itself,
1:21:24just based off of, like, how, you know, you and I consume short form content, no one's going to an account and just going Yeah.
1:21:31And watching every single one out of succession. Whereas, I think nowadays, this online space, everybody is like, YouTube is a tool for growth.
1:21:40Yeah. People see it as that. And so it's just, like, the perfect tool to pour out pour in all this energy.
1:21:47Yeah. And if you're just doing short form, like you say, it's like you've you've done something. Mhmm.
1:21:51But I think having, a content system is being able to say, we're doing short form, but we're gonna introduce YouTube.
1:21:58Mhmm. And we're gonna introduce a new channel. And then we're gonna take the content from that channel.
1:22:01We're gonna repost it on this on the other short form channels. And I think that's why you like, what you're doing now is so interesting. Right?
1:22:07I think the first time we spoke, obviously, Meredith put us in touch. Yeah.
1:22:10He was like, Tristan, you need to find out about Tracchio. I was like I was like, oh, shit. But the first time we got put in touch, we had our first call.
1:22:18I was like, this is super interesting because the reason why the YouTube guy doesn't do IG and the IG guy doesn't wanna do YouTube is because it's all a cope Yeah. And they're all coping because they don't have a Tristan.
1:22:28Mhmm. Right? They don't have that system to, like, be able to do both when it's just you know, it's like if you wanna I don't It's like for fulfillment.
1:22:36Right? You have three, four parts of your fulfillment, and then you have a couple people handle it. With content, it's the same, but no one's been able to teach it properly to anyone because no one I think no one yet has done it at a high scale.
1:22:47Sure. You know? And I think that's why what you're doing next is, like, super interesting because it's the world is going that way now.
1:22:52Every company's becoming a content company. Every creator needs someone. Yeah.
1:22:56There's no more excuse to do it, and, like, you have to have both. Even, like, we tried to look at it.
1:23:02Like, right now with Tracker, we thought, okay. We're gonna stay on YouTube only. And then I was like, it's actually impossible because everyone who's really good at YouTube is like multi channeled.
1:23:09Yeah. Right? And so everyone who's on YouTube is also on on Instagram, everyone who's on YouTube is also on Twitter because they're all different forms of communicating.
1:23:16A 100%. Right? And I mean, even Iman, he's he's everywhere.
1:23:19And I think now we're gonna go into this world of, I don't just follow this person on one place, I follow them everywhere. Mhmm. And it's like, if you wanna be followed everywhere and if you wanna be able to communicate in four different ways through email, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, and then all these different platforms, you need to have a Tristan.
1:23:36And so I think that's gonna be the next couple of years for content are gonna be really interesting. I think so. I think so too.
1:23:41If someone right now today is has a business or, you know, they wanna create content for themselves or they wanna grow, what's the number one thing you've learned in the past five years, advice you would give them? That's that's a good question.
1:23:55How do you distill five years into one piece of advice? I would say two things.
1:24:03Content is a long game. We know that.
1:24:06Mhmm. But it's also not a calculated game. It is a game of trying a lot of shit and seeing what works.
1:24:14You can't just approach content as like, hey. What is the next video that we need to go viral? What is the next video that need to go viral?
1:24:20I think YouTube as a platform is it goes through seasons, algorithms change, you know, your audience's attention span changes Mhmm.
1:24:30Your what your audience like changes. And so I think the creators who have this approach of, like, I wanna try this type of video.
1:24:38I wanna try this type of video. I wanna try this type of video. Do well because when things change and the market changes within the the audience space on YouTube, they're better positioned to capitalize on moments like that versus the guy who's just sat behind his desk, done Loom videos for the last however many days, and he's just doing that form of content.
1:25:00Mhmm. I think, like, that form of content will always do well. Yes.
1:25:04But I think if we're talking about having the ability to do this long term and always being able to do this and, like, not being drained by content, but actually being kind of, you know, having it give you energy, I think if you approach it with the mindset of, like, always trying things and not hyper fixating on just Mhmm.
1:25:20What is the next viral video, what is the video that needs to get a 100 k views, or how this video needs to get, you know, a set amount of leads coming in through the door. It's like, come at it with the approach of, like, we need to try a lot of things and fail at a lot of things and then learn what works and what doesn't.
1:25:33It's the same thing you would do in a business, but why does everything need to be calculated in content? That's yeah. Right?
1:25:38That's a good point. Some the people who do that well get ahead of trends, and they can capitalize that, and they see the success from that.
1:25:45Mhmm. People who maybe get too hyper fixated on the outcome or hyper fixated on just, one format don't branch out far enough in terms of, like, just mixing things up for their audience.
1:25:58So their audience will eventually either, like, surpass them in terms of success Mhmm.
1:26:06Grow up, or
1:26:08lose interest. Okay. That's actually a better answer than what I thought.
1:26:11Yeah. And then the second thing is
1:26:15I think everybody is looking to find their next head of content or creative director. Mhmm. I was not found.
1:26:22I was developed. I was put into a position where I could grow into that role and become that person.
1:26:31And I think a lot of business owners don't think like that. They haven't thought to do that because they haven't humanized their team. Mhmm.
1:26:38And so instead of trying to find the next guy that's gonna solve all your problems, look at it from a long term lens and say, this guy on my team, I think he has the aptitude to do the job.
1:26:51Mhmm. But he's also got that attitude to want to get better at it every single day. Who is that person?
1:26:56Let's identify them. Let's sit down and have a conversation with them. See if we can build a road map that in the next six months, the next year, they become that head of content.
1:27:07So then you're not finding the next guy, you're creating him inside of your business. So that that would be Wow. That's like what we leave on.
1:27:15Those, like, two solid bangers.
1:27:18I have one more. I think it's a bit more meaningful. If you have to if you have to give advice to the 20 old version of you back in Bermuda Oh, yeah.
1:27:27Photography. But let's say, like, the, you know, the version of you flying nine years ago Yeah. What would you tell that person?
1:27:36Like, just what would I tell them about what I'm doing now or just, like What would you tell that person? Words of advice. All of the decisions that you're making right now that you think are the wrong ones lead you to this place.
1:27:50And I wouldn't change anything that I ever did because where I'm at now and all the things that I've been able to do and all the things that I've been able to achieve and be a part of is incredible.
1:28:02And I think, like, at that time, when that thing happened in 2020, I was like, fuck. I just don't know what I'm gonna be doing.
1:28:09I don't know. And then it was, should I buy this thousand dollar course? Is it Yeah.
1:28:14Not gonna be worth it? And, you know, am I gonna dedicate enough time? And, you know, at that time, I think that in my mind, I was like, this is a lot of money.
1:28:22I'm just like it's like, it may not be worth it. And I think, like, having that insight to be tapped into what Iman is doing to them following him, to them getting that job application, and then, you know, making the mistakes and, you know, failing within Iman's organization gave me all of the lessons that then led me here today.
1:28:43And I think that is something where back then, I would have loved the encouragement to know what this was gonna turn into. Mhmm.
1:28:50But I think I was so naive by coming into it by thinking, like, I'm just gonna do this for a year. I'm gonna do this for a year. Mhmm.
1:28:56But my intuition kept me here. And so all of the decisions, whether they were right or wrong, led me to where I am today, and I wouldn't change anything about that. Okay.
1:29:05I think we have it there. Thank you for everything.
1:29:09Honestly, I think this is, like, really viable. Good. I think anyone who's watching will have an insane amount of value to get from this.
1:29:15And I think the next couple of years for you are gonna be a lot more interesting than you even realize. And I think there's a lot of value for you to provide.
1:29:22I think you're gonna have some like really cool stuff. I mean, I guess anyone who's watching now is probably thinking, like, this guy's a fucking genius. Right?
1:29:28Like, what like, you know, how can they, like, reach out to you? You don't even have a website. Yeah.
1:29:32That's the irony. Right? It's like a head of content doesn't even post content himself.
1:29:36But I'm working on that. Yeah. I'm working on that.
1:29:39Yeah. My Instagram, Tristan Kerr mode, and then YouTube as well.
1:29:42That should be coming very, very soon.
1:29:45So, yeah. That's So we'll just, like, send you what what what should they DM you like?
1:29:50Oh god. I need you? I need you.
1:29:52Right? Yeah. Yeah.
1:29:54Yeah. Yeah. Help.
1:29:55Help. Alright. Sure.
1:29:57That's it. It's good having you, man. My pleasure, man.
1:29:59Thank you for having me on. Alright. Alright.
The Hook
The bait, then the rug-pull.
Somewhere behind every billion-view channel is a person nobody talks about. For five years, that person built the systems, hired the editors, ran the events, and connected every dot -- while the world only saw the face in front of the camera. This is the first time he tells the whole story.
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