53:46Jay Clouse · Interview
Inside Riley Brown's 1.5M Follower Content Machine
How a vibe-coding founder turned first-mover instinct into 1.5M followers, a $9M raise, and a seven-account repost engine that tripled revenue in two months.
April 27thThe argument in one line.
Virality on YouTube Shorts is a repeatable system built from story structure, visual hook design, and data from scraping thousands of transcripts — not luck or instinct.
Read if. Skip if.
READ IF YOU ARE…
- You make or want to make YouTube Shorts and are stuck under a million views per video.
- You post the same content to YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram Reels and wonder why results are wildly inconsistent.
- You have ideas but struggle to turn them into a structure that holds attention to the last second.
- You obsess over retention graphs but keep seeing high-retention videos that never take off.
SKIP IF…
- You only make long-form content and have no interest in short-form strategy.
- You are looking for production tutorials — this is entirely strategy and process, no filming or editing how-to.
The full version, fast.
Jenny Hoyos built her 600-million-view Shorts career by treating the format as a science: scraping thousands of transcripts to find that viral Shorts read at fifth-grade level or below, measuring every variable in her retention graphs, and landing on a fixed 34-second length that fits her audience. Every Short follows the same skeleton: visual hook, foreshadow, smooth transition, but/therefore story structure, and a last line written before she even films. She also found that platform algorithms are so different that the same video that gets a million views on TikTok gets a thousand on YouTube Shorts — and built her strategy around that reality.
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Create a free account →Who's talking.
00:06hostJay Clouse
00:06guestJenny Hoyos
Where the time goes.
00:00 – 01:05
01 · The YouTuber Who Solved Shorts
Cold open clip of Jenny's bold claim; Jay frames her stats — 600M views, 10M avg per video.
01:05 – 02:19
02 · How to Make Anything Go Viral
Story + twist as the universal mechanism. Irony and personal stakes make any topic watchable.
02:19 – 05:28
03 · What Makes a Good Short?
Hook that doubles as a title/thumbnail. Visual-first design. Rewatchability as the real success metric.
05:28 – 09:41
04 · Retention and Rewatchability
Fifth-grade readability research. Scraping transcripts to find patterns. 90%+ retention benchmark. Scroll-through rate vs retention gap explained by rewatches.
09:41 – 11:47
05 · Crafting the First Frame Hook
Visual-first hook design. Sketching on iPad before writing. Modeling top creators then iterating to own style.
11:47 – 12:53
06 · Sponsor (Uscreen)
Mid-roll sponsor read for Uscreen video membership platform.
12:53 – 16:24
07 · Generating 1,000 Ideas
1,000 ideas in a Google Doc, executing 10. Sources: watching YouTube, AI, and most importantly living it. Filtering from 100 to 25 to 10 with editor.
16:24 – 18:34
08 · Retention Mechanisms and Viewer Expectations
The mechanism: a device that makes the viewer feel progress. Three-step list as the simplest universal mechanism. Set expectations then twist.
18:34 – 19:50
09 · Short Length and Retention Math
34-second benchmark from personal data. Length-specific retention thresholds. Sub-30s needs 100%+ retention.
19:50 – 24:07
10 · Jenny's Shorts Structure
Hook to foreshadow to smooth transition (no 'let's get started') to but/therefore story structure to last line written before filming.
24:07 – 26:13
11 · Video Making Process
Order of operations: idea, hook, last line, foreshadow, rough script or bullet points, film, revise, edit.
26:13 – 28:26
12 · Finding Your Audience Avatar
Jenny's filter: can non-English-speaking 10-year-olds follow this? Clarity and accessibility as the proxy for universality.
28:26 – 31:13
13 · Differences Across Platforms
YouTube: slower pace, more story. TikTok: 10-20s dense, information-first. Reels: visual + subtitles + shareability. Same video: 1M on TikTok, 1K on YouTube Shorts.
31:13 – 36:03
14 · Transitioning to Long Form
Jenny's motivation: deeper viewer relationship, new challenge. Young Shorts audience doesn't know long form exists. 50K long-form views while averaging 10M on Shorts.
36:03 – 38:13
15 · Hot Takes
Shareability hypothesis with 20% shares-to-views data point. Retention doesn't matter as much as everyone thinks — satisfaction signals may outweigh it.
Lines worth screenshotting.
- MrBeast writes his Shorts at first-grade readability. Jenny targets fifth grade or below — verified by scraping hundreds of top-performing transcripts.
- Avoiding the word 'profit' and just explaining what it means can drop your readability score by three grade levels.
- A scroll-through rate of 85% with 95% retention means viewers are rewatching — rewatches are how you hit 90%+ retention with less-than-perfect scroll performance.
- Trimming one second off a video raised retention from 83% to 88% and turned a 50k-view video into a viral one.
- Every Short needs a mechanism — a device that makes the viewer feel they are getting closer to the payoff with every second. A closing circle. A countdown. A three-step list.
- Jenny always writes the last line of the Short before she films anything else.
- Her optimal short length is exactly 34 seconds — not a rule, a data point pulled from her own top-performing videos.
- Sub-30-second Shorts need 100%+ retention (rewatches) to get algorithmic push. Slightly longer buys room.
- The same video that averages a million views on TikTok averages a thousand on YouTube Shorts. Platform content preferences are not subtle — they are opposite.
- YouTube Shorts prefers slower pace and more story. TikTok prefers 10-20 second dense information. Reels prefers visual-first with subtitles and high shareability.
- Foreshadowing is not optional — Jenny always follows the hook with two spoken lines that set the expectation for what the viewer will see at the end.
- The hook should be good enough to work as a long-form title and thumbnail. If it would get clicks there, it works for a Short.
- Jenny sketches the hook visually on her iPad before writing a word of script — the visual comes first, always.
- A video with a 20% shares-to-views ratio had a 92% growth rate — her strongest evidence that shareability may matter more than retention.
- Having a 100k-view Short with 100%+ retention that never scales suggests retention alone is not what the algorithm rewards.
Jenny's system for making anything go viral on Shorts.
WHAT TO LEARN
Every element of a successful Short — the hook, the structure, the length, the ending — can be reverse-engineered from data, not intuition.
- Viral Shorts cluster at fifth-grade readability or below. Avoid domain words like 'profit' or 'business' and just explain the concept — this single habit can drop your readability score by three grade levels.
- The hook must work as a long-form title and thumbnail before it works as a Short. If it would not get clicks on a standard video, it will not hold attention in the feed.
- Design the hook visually first — sketch or imagine the first frame before writing a word. What the viewer sees in frame one does more work than the first spoken line.
- Every Short needs a mechanism: a device that makes the viewer feel they are getting closer to the payoff with every second. A numbered list, a closing circle, a countdown — without it, viewers skip to the end.
- Foreshadow the payoff immediately after the hook — two spoken lines that set the viewer's expectation. Then follow through, but add a twist so the delivery surprises without betraying the promise.
- Write the last line of the Short before you film anything. Having the ending decided shapes every creative choice in between.
- Analyze your own data, not someone else's. MrBeast's retention benchmarks and Jenny's 34-second length are not universal rules — they are what their specific audiences rewarded.
- The same video can get a million views on TikTok and a thousand on YouTube Shorts. YouTube wants slower pace and story; TikTok wants dense 10-20 second content; Reels wants visual-first with subtitles. These are not subtle platform differences — they are opposite preferences.
- Retention alone may not be what the algorithm rewards. A Short with 70% retention can reach 10M views while a 100%+ retention video stalls at 100K. Viewer satisfaction signals — including shares — likely matter more than the single retention number.
Terms worth knowing.
- Scroll-through rate
- The percentage of people who watched a Short rather than swiping past it. Jenny averages 85%; the platform average is roughly 70%. Distinct from retention, which measures how much of the video those who stayed actually watched.
- Mechanism
- A structural device embedded in the video that creates a sense of progress toward the payoff — a closing circle, a numbered list being checked off, a countdown. Without a mechanism, viewers have no reason to stay rather than skip to the end.
- Foreshadow
- The two spoken lines immediately after the hook that tell the viewer exactly what they will see by the end. Jenny includes this in every Short regardless of topic.
- But/therefore storytelling
- A story structure where events are linked with 'but' and 'therefore' instead of 'and then,' creating conflict and consequence at every step. Popularized by the South Park creators.
- Readability score
- A measurement of how simple written or spoken text is, typically tied to a school grade level. Jenny targets fifth grade or below using readabilityformulas.com, based on analysis of MrBeast and other top Shorts creators.
- Close the loop
- Following through on an expectation set in the hook — the viewer saw the setup and the video delivers. Jenny pairs loop-closing with a twist to add surprise without betraying the promise.
Things they pointed at.
Lines you could clip.
00:02
“I don't ask if it'll go viral. I can figure out how to make it viral.”
07:53
“Every second counts on a short. Like, every single second.”
09:11
“90% is your benchmark. That's what you're looking for for retention for something that will have the virality.”
25:43
“Do I wanna make it? I don't ask if it'll go viral. I can figure out how to make it viral if I really wanna make it.”
37:08
“I just have a hunch that retention doesn't matter as much as people think it does.”
Where the conversation goes.
01:05 – 09:41denseWhat makes a viral Short
16:24 – 24:07denseStructural formula for Shorts
12:53 – 16:24denseIdea generation and filtering
28:26 – 31:13densePlatform differences
36:03 – 38:13steadyRetention data and hot takes
Word for word.
analogystory
00:00I don't ask if it'll go viral. I can figure out how to make it viral. That is an absurd thing to say.
00:06That's Jenny Hoyos, an 18 year old YouTuber who is absolutely crushing shorts. She's done over 600,000,000 views in the past year alone, averaging 10,000,000 views per video.
00:20How does she do it? I have analyzed thousands
00:24of shorts. I've analyzed all of mister b shorts, all of Ryan Trehan's shorts, and what I found was In this episode, you'll learn how to make anything go viral. I think you can make a video about anything.
00:36It's just adding an How to create the perfect short? Every second counts on a short.
00:43Like, every single second. Whatever you say you're gonna do, you end it right after you do it. The differences in short form content platforms Short form content is not the same across platforms.
00:53I noticed that YouTube likes And a hot take you might not be expecting.
00:58Retention doesn't matter as much as people think it does.
01:05You said this kind of aside. You said, well, I can make anything go viral. Like, if the idea is good, I can make I can make it go viral, which is an absurd thing to say.
01:12And I wanna hear what that means to you. How do you how do you make anything go viral? It's just adding story and a twist.
01:19Especially with Shorts, since, like, no one's actually having to click on your video. I think you can make a video about anything. You can make video about paint drying,
01:29and you can make it entertaining if there's a story around it and if the viewer is invested. What are your favorite ways to get people invested? How do you how do you make a story that people care about?
01:37I think my content is very personality based, I'd say. So for me, making it personal makes them invested.
01:44I'll give you an example. I actually did this in a long form. In the video, I cooked for strangers to make money.
01:50Okay. Very baseline. Why should they care?
01:53Well, my kitchen is broken and I wanna raise money for it by cooking and making money.
02:00You know, it's it's ironic, like, I'm My kitchen's broken, so in order to fix it, I have to cook to make money. So I think that's what makes people invested having like some sort of personal why or goal. And irony too is pretty funny.
02:14I like that. I like that. Irony, juxtaposition.
02:17Jenny's the hero of the story. Exactly.
02:19What makes a good short? When I think of good, it's very subjective. So there's no direct definition as to what makes a good short because everyone has different tastes.
02:30But I can say what makes a good short to me. Okay. Let's hear that.
02:33To me, a good short is one that has a strong hook. And the way I like to explain it is if it could be used as a title and thumbnail on a long form, and I can it will still get clicks, then it'll work for a short.
02:46You know? So the hook needs to be very visual. You need to understand it without even listening to it, and it needs to be so simple, like, so simply said, like you said, explain to a five year old.
02:56So I think that's one of the key things. And then also just a story that just, you know, pushes you through, and not only do you watch to the end, but you rewatch it again.
03:05So that's what makes a good short to me. Let's say that you are
03:09planning or want to create a new video. How do you start thinking about hooks, or how do you generate hooks?
03:16Uh, it's it's very funny because I like to I like to see shorts, like, as, like even though I don't do that many long forms, I like to see shorts as if I'm making, like, a long form. So, like, I will sketch, like, almost as if it's title and thumbnails.
03:28So, like, I have my iPad and I draw, like, what would I visually want it to look like? What are different ways if I was to put it together, what would that look like? So when I'm making a hook, I just, like, keep drawing and sketching or, like, even just imagining until something just clicks.
03:43So the first thing is the visual, Easily, the first thing is the visual, and then I figure out how I'm gonna accompany that visual. And what I'm saying, I try to make it as concise as possible, and I'll put it in a readability checker, and then make sure that it's actually, like, understandable to at least, like, fifth grade or under.
04:00What's what's the readability checker that you use? Uh, I don't I don't know. I don't pay for it.
04:05It's readabilityformulas.com
04:07is the one I use. And you wanna be fifth grade or under? Fifth grade or under.
04:10Yeah. Have you have you played around with things that are older quote unquote than that and seeing that that's the level that it should be at or how did you arrive at fifth grade?
04:20Yes. So I have analyzed thousands
04:23of shorts as you may know. So I've like scraped, you know, the scripts of a bunch of shorts and I've put it in this readability checker, and I've noticed that the most popular shorts, especially MrBeast.
04:34You know, MrBeast is one of the best shorts creators, and his is, like, in first grade level. So I just basically, like, after scraping everything, that's when I realized, like, fifth grade and under is like, are about the range you wanna be at. Yeah.
04:46I think yeah. This is simply put. Yeah.
04:48How did you land on fifth grade? Was that the average of all of these? I'm not gonna lie.
04:52The readability can sometimes be off, but it was, um, it was just like at a range. Because I I believe like like, Eirac, for example, is like slightly higher. I don't know the exact number on the top of my head, but I I just noticed that, like, a good in between is fifth grade.
05:07But I will say the problem with the readability is especially, like, with content like mine, you can change the readability from fifth grade to like, eighth grade by simply using the word business. Mhmm. Which is why I try to avoid things like that, or if you use the word finance, or if you use like, for example, profit.
05:23Instead of saying profit,
05:24I just explain the definition of profit Mhmm. Every time I talk about it. I did not know this about you.
05:30I did not know that you analyzed thousands of Shorts by scraping the titles and the transcripts. Can you tell me more about that?
05:37Yeah. So it's so funny because, like, basically, the way I do it is, you know, when you go onto YouTube and you open up a Short, it sends you, like even on desktop, it sends you to, like, this Shorts page or whatever.
05:48Yeah. But if you change the URL to, like, watch question mark v equals then the URL, then it will send you to, like, the actual YouTube page, and then you can just click transcript,
06:00copy and paste that transcript, and then I just check the readability. But I also, like, check other things, you know, I just analyze why these shorts are working. So interesting.
06:09So interesting. I I would love to hear anything else that comes to mind as you were looking at all this that starting to help you pull together your own short strategy because I did not realize that you've done all this research and pulled all this together. This gets me very, very excited.
06:23As the creator science guy, I am
06:26super Yeah. Excited about this this research. Yeah.
06:29So I've also, like, deeply analyzed all of my videos, and I think that's where you learn the most. Everyone has different audiences. So what works for MrBeast might not work for me.
06:39Right? So what I did was, like, I did my own little experiment. Like, when I knew I wanted to get into shorts, I told myself I was gonna upload every day for as long as possible.
06:49And I think I only got, like, a week or two in. It it didn't it didn't I didn't I didn't get that far, but the goal was essentially to upload as much as possible. Quantity is what makes quality.
07:00When I was doing that quantity, I would analyze my retention graph. And this is just like one example I'll just pull out for you.
07:06So there was one video after five days, I got I think it was like 50,000 views in five days. Right?
07:13Which I on average, I usually get like a million. So I was not happy with the performance. And I pulled up the retention graph, and I noticed on the last second, it was a huge dip.
07:24It was 70%. One second later, it was 45%. Like a 25% drop in one second, and the retention was 83%.
07:33So what I did was I went to YouTube studio, I trimmed off that one second. YouTube removed this feature, by the way.
07:39YouTube, please bring it back. But just by removing that one second at the end, it went from 83% to 88%, and the video went flying.
07:48And that that's why, like, every second counts on a short, like, every single second. Because when you think about it, let's say you have a thirty second short. Right?
07:57If you lose one second, that's already 97%. That's three percentages. You know, if you have lose two seconds, that's 6%.
08:04So when you think about it, I'm sure it's like, you're not just losing one second,
08:09you're losing double or even triple because that one second accumulates to two or 3% of the video. The takeaway here, I believe, is that you really want in a short high retention, of course, we want high retention in everything. But I've heard some people talk about you really want people to sometimes loop and watch even into a repeat Yes.
08:28Of the thing. Is that true? Yes.
08:31Yes. And I'll explain why. The average scroll through rate, which is basically like on YouTube shorts, you can see what percentage who like, what percentage of people viewed versus swiped away.
08:42And I like to call it scroll through rate. But the average scroll through rate is like 70%. You wanna get that as high as possible.
08:48My personal scroll through rate is like 85%. So my average scroll through rate is 85%, but my average retention is 95%.
09:00If only 85% of people are watching it, how does the retention subtly get to 95%?
09:06It's because they're rewatching it. So to have that, like, 90 plus percent retention, which is like, in my opinion, the bare minimum, like, for a short to blow up, you need them to watch it again.
09:17So 90% is your benchmark. That's what you're looking for for retention for something that will have the the virality and reach that you're accustomed to at this point?
09:26For the most part, yes. I will say it depends on the amount of impressions because my videos average like 95% retention, but we're talking like that's on 10,000,000 views.
09:37So that's like, it's very difficult to do. Right. So, yeah.
09:41Okay. So you mentioned that with the hooks, you think about the visual nature of it. Are you talking about the first frame of the actual video?
09:49Yes. I'm talking about the first frame. I don't know how many shorts you've seen, so I'll try and explain it.
09:54But I I've seen more than one, but less than you. So let's let's assume on the low end. Yeah.
10:01I have this series where I remake fast food items for a dollar. Instead of like showing my face, I show the location.
10:10I show the front of the location. Because obviously, like more people know the fast food location than they know me. The easiest way to describe like the video just visually is by showing the fast food item in front of the location.
10:24So usually, it's so funny. I would have the logo in the middle, and then I'll put the food item here, and then right in the middle, I'll put like $1 burrito, $1 sandwich, $1 burger.
10:35So then it's like, you perfectly see it. It's always perfectly aligned, and it really helps for a bench ability too because it's actually a playlist, and I get a lot of views from people like just, like, watching it down, and they they just know it's me every time they see that framing.
10:48So interesting. Was this all trial and error, or did you model this this style of of framing
10:54and hook off of
10:57anyone in particular? It's definitely like trial and error. At first, I started by, I guess, can say stealing.
11:05Like stealing like an artist because that's how to me, I I believe that's how you learn. Sure. You obviously want to find your own style.
11:12But I started by like copying other people's looks, and then I was looking at like, which percentage is the highest. So I it sounds so funny. So like a strategy, a technique is like, what would it sound like if this YouTuber made this video?
11:27And then I would make a bunch of hooks depending on that. So I'll have like a list of like the big 10, and then I'll just like, you know, have a bunch of different hooks, pick which one's my favorite, see the percentage,
11:37and then assess what's the best hook. Then I made my own twist into it. After a quick break, Jenny walks me through her process for coming up with great ideas.
11:46So stick around, we'll be right back. If you know me, you know how much I believe in memberships. My membership is the core of my business and I believe that earning a living directly from your audience is one of the most sustainable ways for you to become a professional creator as well.
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12:54What would you say is your proportion of like video ideas to videos you actually create?
13:02Oh gosh. Well, have like right now in a Google Doc, I have a list of a thousand ideas. Crazy.
13:08And I'm only doing 10. Crazy. So So these are It depends.
13:12These are a thousand ideas, not a thousand hooks. A thousand different video ideas that could each have multiple different hooks within them. Yes.
13:20It's it's it's crazy. Yeah. Where do they come from?
13:23How do you generate that many ideas? Okay. There's a lot of ways.
13:26So one way is I just watch YouTube and then see what I personally, you know, like, wanna recreate and like twist. Or it's like, what video do I wanna watch?
13:37Or, um, as funny as it sounds, I also use AI. AI has some pretty good ideas. But the best ideas, at least for me personally, they come from just living it, and then thinking this is a video idea.
13:52So let me explain that. So one of my most popular videos is me making a garden. As funny as it sounds, because that sounds like it would get no views, yet it has, like, it has like 30,000,000 views.
14:05Like, so That's a ton. There's so many ideas where something like this happen.
14:09One day I was eating ratatouille, because it's like one of my favorite foods. Right? And I'm like, I can't believe like it costs $20 to cook.
14:17And I'm like, but can't I just make a garden and then have unlimited ratatouille for like $5?
14:24And I'm like, oh my gosh, that's a video idea. So I'm like, now I gotta make a garden and then I'm gonna grow vegetables to have infinite ratatouille because it's my favorite food. So, like, that's where the story came from.
14:36Or, like, another time, my grandma, she was so funny. She got, like like, I think it was, like, laundry detergent in the mail or whatever. Like, free laundry detergent.
14:46I'm like, how'd you get free laundry detergent? That's, like, $30. And she was like, oh, I called the company, and I complained to them.
14:53I told them that they suck, and they sent me free laundry detergent. And I'm like, that's a video. I gotta do that.
15:00So it's like, you know, just things that I live and then I'm like, that needs to be a video. Those are my best ideas. So how do you go from a thousand ideas to narrow it down to 10?
15:08What is the deciding factor of which videos make the cut? Yeah. So I would say I narrow it I narrow it down to like like, let's say we have a 100, because a 100 is like an easier number to work with.
15:21So let's say we have a 100 ideas. I'll narrow it down to like 25, 25 to 50.
15:28That's usually just based on like the first thing I ask myself is do I wanna make it? I don't ask if it'll go viral. I can figure out how to make it viral if I really wanna make it.
15:37So first, I tell myself, do I actually wanna make this? Is this actually logistically possible? And then it's like, is the hook good?
15:43Is the mechanism good? Are people gonna rewatch this? Then that's when I look at like, where's the virality aspect in this?
15:50Then I'll bring it down to 25. Then from there, I'll send it to, um, my video editor who's also like he's just like, he's really involved in the channel, so he's not just a video editor, he's also like a strategist, because, know, he's he he knows a lot about YouTube. And I'll send it to him, and he'll bring my 25 to like 10.
16:08And he'll basically, he'll go in and tell me like, even further if it actually seems viral, if he thinks it's shareable. But for him, like, he's really good at telling if if a concept is simple yet complex,
16:23if that makes sense. Mhmm. Mhmm.
16:25You mentioned a word a second ago. You said, is the mechanism good? What do you mean by mechanism?
16:30If they're going to be pushed till the end. So like, a good example is mister beast, the red circle, like, is it like last to leave circle wins $500,000. The mechanism is the circle is constantly closing.
16:42So the viewer is watching till the end. So if if it was just like, the circle wasn't closing, I don't know if anyone watched till the end. They'll just skip to the end probably.
16:50Interesting. What are some of the mechanisms that you've used? I think this is the easiest one that anyone can apply.
16:54It's basically saying, there's three steps or there's three things we need to do because it's very easy to follow, and you just show the list of three. So now the viewer knows that, oh, we're getting closer to the video.
17:04Like, they actually have a good expectation, which is probably one of the biggest things. I think that's I think that's why my videos, go viral. It's because people have a good expectation of what they're gonna watch and what's actually gonna be at the end.
17:19So when it comes to expectations, if you set expectations,
17:22do you find that then the the next step is completely following through on those expectations or do you ever try to like subvert expectations for an element of surprise or something? I try to follow those expectations,
17:35but then have a twist. For example, I gave my mom a $5 Mother's Day gift.
17:41The hook was, my mom's never had a Mother's Day gift. So I'm gonna change that and buy her the best present with $5. It was it was the why making them Karen the hook.
17:49My mom's never had a Mother's Day gift, so I'm gonna change that. Then the expectation is, so I'm gonna surprise her with a gift for $5.
17:58On screen, I'm showing me giving her the gift, but you're gonna see that till the end. So it's like, it's the the cold open, and then we cut to the video.
18:07So the expectation is by the end of the video, you're gonna see me give her a gift. So then I follow through and make the gift, and then I surprise her. Now I gave them the expectation, I closed the loop that I'm gonna surprise her with this gift.
18:20But the twist was, she ended up dropping the gift, it broke, and then she's like, you're the best daughter I've ever had. I'm like, uh, I'm your only one, video ends.
18:31So it's like, yeah, I I gave that expectation that I'm gonna gift her, and then we just twisted it at the end. How long would you say on average your shorts are? Oh, I know exactly the answer because I've done the analysis.
18:41Analysis. Okay. Okay.
18:42What's What's the the answer? Answer? It's it's exactly thirty four seconds because my most popular videos are exactly that length, so I try to make it exactly that length.
18:50That was gonna be my next question. Was to say, do is that now your your benchmark for what you're looking for in a video? Thirty four seconds?
18:56Yes. So Yes. Everyone's is different.
18:59Everyone gotta analyze it like for their their own channel.
19:02And I think I've seen well, was in, uh, I was in Pat Galloway's accelerator and he showed some research that he had done to show like depending on your short length, this is the bar for retention you should be shooting for. So I'm guessing that 90 retention is also related to the average total length of your videos.
19:21Whereas if it's shorter, maybe you need retention to be higher to achieve the same virality.
19:26Exactly. Yes. Correct.
19:28So for me, for my personal channel, like I said, like, there's no specific number. I think everyone just has to check out their analytics.
19:36But for me, I noticed if a short is less than thirty seconds, it needs to. It has to have over a 100% retention or else it's not gonna take off. Wow.
19:44So that's why I like to make it slightly longer. But too long is too long for my audience since I do have a very young audience. If you know that you want your videos to be about thirty four seconds, I'm thinking if it's thirty four seconds and you know that you want your last second retention to be really high, it seems like the payoff is like literally the last second.
20:02So now we got thirty four thirty three seconds to work with. You probably know how long your hook generally is. So maybe that's you know, three seconds or five seconds, and you have this remainder of twenty eight to thirty seconds in the middle.
20:14Do you break that down into specific pieces of the mechanism, or is that just kind of whatever happens in the edit? Yeah. So it's usually whatever happens in the edit.
20:23But what I do check is
20:26before I film the video, I will do a rough script even if it's not even what happens in the video. Like, I'll just roughly, you know, do it and I can just change it later.
20:36And from there, I'll have a sense of how long it is just from the word count. But I don't necessarily force it. I just let it free flow like you said in the edit.
20:43But I do have a rough idea of the word count, and my hooks, and foreshadow.
20:49I always do that in every video. I do a hook, and then I foreshadow, which is two lines. And that is usually three seconds or less.
20:56And foreshadow, you're saying that's in
20:59that's in the voice over. Because I know you mentioned like the the example of your your mom's gift. When you see her grab the package, that's foreshadowing in a way, but that's completely visual.
21:09You're saying you dedicate some spoken time
21:13to foreshadowing as well. Yes. I always have spoken time to foreshadowing it.
21:17Like it doesn't matter what video idea it is. Like like like, let me just pull up like a random idea, like, I'm going to the beach. Right?
21:25And then it's like, why would someone watch? So that's the hook. I'm going to the beach, and what's the foreshadow?
21:30I'm going to the beach, and I'm gonna surprise someone with a $100 at the end of the video. It could literally be with anything. It just needs to have some sort of expectation.
21:39I wanna keep going down this the structure rabbit hole a little bit more because I keep finding new layers. Like, I didn't know foreshadowing is part of your structure.
21:47So is there anything that comes after the hook and foreshadowing that is a structural part of every video? Yes. There actually is.
21:55So it will usually be hook, which is really short, then I'll foreshadow what's gonna be at the end, then I have to smoothly transition. So I used to have like a lot of breaks because you want to give people time to breathe.
22:09Right? Because you don't want to be like, I'm gonna be doing this and this and this and this and this this and video's over. I didn't like, they they're not gonna understand anything.
22:16So you want a pacing break without the pacing actually breaking. Let me explain what I mean by that. This I did this in my recent video.
22:24So it was like, McDonald's banned this item, hook. So I'm gonna make it at home, then convince them to put it back on the menu.
22:33That's the foreshadow. And then at first, I wrote, let's get started, but that breaks pace. So instead of saying, let's get started, I said, so I cooked illegally.
22:43That that just flows better. So I I don't wanna give, like because I already gave, like, two crucial pieces of detail. So if I give any more detail, they're just gonna forget about that, like, primacy recency.
22:54Uh, if you I can get into that. So it's like they're gonna forget what I just said. So we need a pacing break without the pacing actually breaking.
23:01That makes sense. Yeah. Totally.
23:02Okay. Let's keep going down this this trail. Is there is there more structural pieces past the transition?
23:08Usually, it's just like problem solution or but they're for storytelling.
23:14Okay. Tell me more about but therefore storytelling.
23:17Basically, but therefore but therefore storytelling, simply put, is just lots of change in the story.
23:24So a story stories can't be stories without change. For example, I went on a walk, then it started raining, then I went back home.
23:33It was much more boring than if it was like, I went on a walk, but it started raining. Therefore, I started running back home and I I I was raining all over me.
23:45But good thing I had a handy umbrella while was on my way back. Therefore, I got home. Like, it's the exact same story but it just sounds so much more intriguing when you have like, but Yeah.
23:56Or So
23:57but therefore. I'm so glad that you're able to like whip up these examples on the fly. This is must be very stressful.
24:03The the spots I'm putting you on, but you're just like, I got it. Yeah. So if I'm thinking from an order of operations standpoint, I'm I'm making some assumptions I'm realizing and I wanna make sure I'm correct in them.
24:16It sounds like you have ideas first, then you narrow that down to a small number of ideas and ultimately a video you say, yes. This idea, my editor and I have decided is a good one.
24:27Uh, you come up with versions of the hook, and then it seems like you you start recording. And after recording, you start editing, and then after editing comes the transcript for the voice over.
24:40Did I get that right? You were close. You were close.
24:44Like you said, ideas, then I find that one idea. Then I'll write my hook.
24:49Then, I'll write the last line. So I always know the last line when I'm going to film. Then, I'll go back and then after the hook, I figure out how I'm going to foreshadow that.
25:01I I will always have the hook for so I always have two lines. So it'd be like hook, foreshadow, and but in between, it would be like it depends on the video.
25:11Sometimes it will be a rough script like we were saying, so I can have that structure in mind, or it will just be bullet points of things I wanna touch on while I'm filming. Then, I will film. Once I filmed, I will revisit the script again, revise it, finalize it, then it goes in edit.
25:31How do you write the last line without knowing what comes out in the filming? It's you'd like leave it in blank. So it would be like,
25:39for example, if I'm surprising someone with a gift, the last line would be then like it's so simple.
25:47Then I surprised my mom and and then blank. So it's usually Because, know reaction. Just to have a general idea.
25:53Yes. Yeah. Exactly.
25:54Yes. Okay. I was watching your videos this morning and I I was like really
25:58I I took note of the fact that they all end very abruptly. But like not in a way where I'm like, what happened? It's it's like it's pleasing but it is abrupt and we already talked about how you you kind of learn this and you turned it off.
26:09But it is like, and I surprised my mom and, you know, and then and then her reaction and then and. You mentioned a moment ago that the age of your audience is typically a little bit younger.
26:19How much do you think about who the audience is when you think of ideas? You know, because in my world, to to just step back a second.
26:27In my world, lot of times, folks have like a very specific avatar that they're creating for who's trying to achieve some sort of specific goal. I don't think that's the same in more of the entertainment space.
26:38So I'd love to hear to what level of detail you
26:42think about an audience member in your mind. Yeah. That's everything.
26:46Avatar is everything. So for me, I will think of like specific people.
26:51So I will think of like me when I was younger. I'll think about like These these are my favorites to think about by the way. My my nieces are 10 years old.
27:0110 I have two nieces that are seven and 10, and they just moved to America last year, so they barely understand English. And that's that's who I wanna speak to.
27:13It's it's very tough because they might not be interested in the topic, but if I can make them interested, and especially if it makes sense to them as non English speakers, then it's probably really good. So that's the way I see it. It's not necessarily thinking of like, their their dreams, their desires,
27:30but more so how can you speak to them. So I just it just I don't know if that makes sense because it's like, it's it's different. It it makes sense.
27:37It's interesting for me to hear because I just don't speak to folks on the more entertainment side of the creator world as often. So actually, it's I'm just coming at it from natural curiosity to hear how you do think about it. I would imagine at the level of views you're getting, tens of millions on these on these videos, it's a broad spectrum of people who are looking at this.
27:57So who do you who do you choose as the core of, yes, people outside of this type of person, maybe it's my nieces, will watch this, but I'm making it for this person in particular. I didn't know if you had that specificity or not. Like I said, I do and I don't.
28:12So it's in the sense of like, I
28:15it's mainly like my younger self, which is like kind of weird because I can't actually my younger self can't actually watch it, but that's like the way I think of it, if that makes sense. Yeah.
28:26For sure. For sure. Can we talk a little bit about
28:29Instagram Reels and TikTok and how you think about those? A lot of times people think short form vertical video, it's same everywhere. Choose wherever you're leading and then just post it to all three.
28:39And it's clear that your your YouTube is is much bigger than the other two platforms. Mhmm. And those other platforms are much bigger than mine, so that's not a judgment on you.
28:48So I'm curious what you're hearing or what you're experiencing in terms of how this does or does not translate. Hey, real quick before they respond, I wanna let you know that there are bonus audio only episodes of Creator Science that air every Tuesday when we don't publish a video. Episodes like number one fifty six where I talk with my editor Connor about our first year on YouTube or number 37 with Ali Abdaal.
29:10If that's interesting, just search for Creator Science wherever you listen to podcasts.
29:15Alright. Back to the show. Yeah.
29:16So short form content is not the same across platforms. And I know this because I used to do very well on TikTok before I was doing well on YouTube. In fact, when I had like a thousand subscribers on YouTube, I had like 70 k on TikTok.
29:30So I was doing much better, and I was averaging, like, a million views per TikTok. What was crazy is I remember, in this in this point, I was posting to all three platforms, but TikTok was getting all the views.
29:42YouTube shorts and Instagram reels were getting, like, none of it. Were you thinking about one of those platforms as, like, your lead platform at that time? It was definitely TikTok.
29:51So you're thinking, I'm making this video for TikTok. I'm also posting to reels, and I'm also pointing to posting shorts. Correct.
29:57But it wasn't edited on the TikTok app. Like, would still be filmed,
30:01you know, like professionally and then edited it and then posting on TikTok. The same video that would get 1,000,000 views on TikTok would get a thousand views on YouTube Shorts.
30:10And I was like, okay. Let me switch a strategy because I bought banned on TikTok, like, for a short period of time. I'm like, let me focus on YouTube.
30:18And then the opposite happened. I started averaging 1,000,000 views on YouTube and then a thousand on TikTok. I'm like, this is really strange.
30:24Like, these platforms definitely want different content. And what I found, YouTube likes definitely a slower, more mature you know, it's a more mature audience, so they want, like, a slower pace and more story.
30:38So those would be, like, the thirty four second tick thirty four second shorts that I'm making right now. TikTok, on the other hand, did not like did not like videos over thirty seconds.
30:48It liked ten to twenty second videos that were just, like, dense with information, not that many jokes, just like, you know, just just scrollable.
30:57They're just trying to scroll as much as possible. For Instagram reels, was also slightly more mature, but because they have that mute feature, a lot of those videos would be very visual and would have like subtitles in every second and would have like a lot of shareability since it's very it's it's very easy to share on Instagram.
31:15How do you think about long form now? Is it something that you aspire to do more of? How does it play into the Jenny Hoyos universe?
31:22Yes. The Jenny Hoyos universe sounds like the MCU. But, yeah, I I really wanna get into long form.
31:29I want to become established there. Basically, what I did to Shortz is exactly what I'm doing to long form. I have been studying long forms for the past year, learning as much as I can, analyzing everything, and now it's just time to execute.
31:43So the goal is to pull off what I did on Shortz on long form, and then just, you know, upload a, uh, upload a good amount between them. I'm never gonna quit shorts. It's just gonna be a good balance
31:56between the two. What does long form represent to you that it's a priority? You know, you're so good at shorts.
32:01You're you're like at the top of the mountain there. Why is long form something that's calling to you? You know,
32:06I think I mean, it's a lot of reasons. It's I feel I it's it's kind of tough saying it, but I think that they simply put, I don't see that much more growth for me in shorts.
32:18Like, sure, I can start averaging like a 100,000,000 views, but it's like, the real growth and fun is gonna come from learning long form. This is all about the journey.
32:28You know, it's like, it sounds so bad to say, but I feel like I've already achieved my goal for sure, like, for shorts, you know.
32:36And it's like I wanna, you know, challenge myself again. I just don't feel like I'm challenging myself with shorts.
32:41This is a guess in short. Yeah. No, it's valid.
32:45your your reasons are your reasons, and they're totally valid. I was I was I was wondering if that had anything to do with like, is the relationship to the audience different in long form? I'm sure there's more money in long form.
32:54And I was wondering if those were part of the decision or if it was just a, you know, time to climb a new mountain type situation.
33:01I will say as ironic as it sounds, money is not the reason why. Like, when I first, like, started my entrepreneurship journey, I was like, money is everything.
33:11Right? But then when I I started YouTube, I realized like, it doesn't matter how much I'm making, like, I'm just doing this.
33:17So money, like, it's crazy. As funny as it sounds, because my content is all about money. I don't even care how much I'm making.
33:23Like, it's funny as it sounds. It's weird how it works.
33:27But yeah. Is it yeah. The yeah.
33:30It's just I think I think there is a better relationship with the viewer. I feel like it's just it's just more it's more it's more personal,
33:39you know? Like, you guys are spending more time together. For sure.
33:43I think it is like a time spent situation. Like, I feel like we really build trust as a function of time spent. And the more spent time you spend with somebody, like, the more of a relationship you build.
33:55Relationships are built on trust. Curious if you think that your shorts audience will transition into long form or if you're thinking about, you know, the audience themselves the same.
34:05Like, are these long form videos also going to be for your 10 year old nieces? It's it's a different audience, you know. It's really funny.
34:12I wanna tell this story because I thought it was absolutely
34:15hilarious and it's just gonna open up like because to me, it was it was huge.
34:20I had a little cousin visit my house. It was the first time I ever met her, because she was also from another country.
34:26And she she's like seven years old. She came into my house.
34:30First thing she said, I'm cousins with a famous YouTuber? It was so funny. And then the second thing she said, she was like telling me how like she loves my shorts.
34:39And she was like, you know what you should check out? I was like, I was on YouTube and I noticed like, they have these like horizontal videos that are like shorts, but just like long.
34:50And I was like, that was crazy. I was shocked. That's crazy.
34:54That type of thing breaks my mind. It's like it's like the videos where it's like, we asked Gen Z to listen to and it's like insert band from my childhood here and like, this is bad.
35:02Exactly. It was one of those moments where we realized it opened. It was like, that those are really two different audiences.
35:09Because there's some people who probably don't even know long forms or a thing, and vice versa, some people that don't even know shorts or a thing. Then there's the people that know both. So I know I'm gonna get, you know, I'm not gonna get all of my audience.
35:21I have had some audience transition, but yeah, that's where I'm at. And you think that's a is that a YouTube thing or is that an audience preference thing?
35:31I think it's an audience preference thing for sure. Yeah. I think YouTube is doing like, as funny as it sounds, because I feel like a lot of Shorts creators, like, oh, I feel so bad saying this because I'm not one of them, but I'm calling them out.
35:43Like, there's Shorts creators who have, like, a million subscribers, then they don't even get, like, a thousand views on a long form. And then they're like, it's YouTube's fault.
35:51Yeah. But, like, in reality, it's, like, their fault. You know?
35:53Like, um, I average, like, 10,000,000 views on Shorts, and then on long forms, I'm averaging, like, 50 k views. You know?
36:00So it's like, I think they're doing a pretty good job at like transitioning them. Just obviously not everyone's gonna transition. Alright.
36:06Last question, which I love to ask people. Is there anything that you believe to be true? And we can relate it to YouTube or Shorts,
36:12but you don't yet have data to support.
36:15Oh, there's there's a couple. I'm trying to think what I should I I think I got a good one. I'm gonna say two.
36:20Okay? Because I'm I'm there's two that are really Bonus. I think shareability really matters, but I haven't done enough, like, analysis on that yet, but I'm sure I can do my own analysis.
36:31It's it's very tough because there's a lot of factors that come into play because, you know, I could argue this video has a lot of shares, that's why I blew up. But then I could also just argue that the retention was high. So do you really know?
36:44I I don't know. So that that's my hinge. I think shareability really does help.
36:49Although, will say, like, one of my shorts, it has, like, such high shares. It has, like what was it?
36:54It's like the shares to view ratio. It's 20%, which is extremely high. That seems very high.
36:59And this growth rate is, like, 92%, which is insane. And it's probably because the shares are are that high.
37:05And then my second hunch is that retention doesn't matter as much as people think it does. Say more.
37:11It's very interesting because I have a lot of friends like, who will send me their retention graphs, or like their data, their analytics. And there's people like, within like a similar amount of impressions as me, like, their retention will be so much higher than mine.
37:26Like, their friends, like, they would have, like, a forty second short that has, like, a 100 k views and over a 100% retention. And I'm like, oh my gosh. This video is gonna get, like, 10,000,000 views, and, like, it's it's not even niche either, but then it never it never does that.
37:40Then for me, like so yeah. Like, for me, what's crazy is, like, you know, I I've had a Short before where it had, like, 70% retention on the first 100 k views, which is, like, really bad. Like, really, really bad for Shorts.
37:53And it still got, like, 10,000,000 views because it was, like, all returning viewers. You know? So it's, I just have a hunch that, like, you know, like, I don't know I don't know what it is, what what how they're measuring it.
38:04It's just viewer satisfaction. It can't it can't just be retention. You know?
The Hook
The bait, then the rug-pull.
At 18, Jenny Hoyos had already averaged 10 million views per YouTube Short and 600 million total views in a single year. The opener she gave Jay Clouse — "I don't ask if it'll go viral. I can figure out how to make it viral" — is not a brag. It is a thesis statement, and the next 38 minutes are the proof.
